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I'm getting pretty frustrated with how physical opposing teams are allowed to be with us (especially with Garland).

But this game in particular, where we put physical players in to counter, and the Bucks live at the line as a result might break me.

Too many Cavs fans underrate Allen, we miss Lauri, and we need another backup center.

We basically have Love as a reliable shooter off the bench and that's it. I'm really worried about Wade's ability to stay healthy because if he can't start, I think we need to make a trade, and the cupboards are pretty bare.

jbk1234 wrote:Too many Cavs fans underrate Allen, we miss Lauri, and we need another backup center.

We basically have Love as a reliable shooter off the bench and that's it. I'm really worried about Wade's ability to stay healthy because if he can't start, I think we need to make a trade, and the cupboards are pretty bare.

I thought Lopez was supposed to be the backup C but if he's only going to play 14 minutes when Allen is out, I agree.

jbk1234 wrote:Too many Cavs fans underrate Allen, we miss Lauri, and we need another backup center.

We basically have Love as a reliable shooter off the bench and that's it. I'm really worried about Wade's ability to stay healthy because if he can't start, I think we need to make a trade, and the cupboards are pretty bare.

Hate to keep harping on it but why it's so important to having future firsts available to trade, only having 1 swap just really makes the Cavs have to sit pat, especially riding right up against the luxury tax.

toooskies wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:Too many Cavs fans underrate Allen, we miss Lauri, and we need another backup center.

We basically have Love as a reliable shooter off the bench and that's it. I'm really worried about Wade's ability to stay healthy because if he can't start, I think we need to make a trade, and the cupboards are pretty bare.

I thought Lopez was supposed to be the backup C but if he's only going to play 14 minutes when Allen is out, I agree.

He's just way too slow to adequately defend the high PNR, he's also basically unplayable with Love, and tonight he couldn't even hold his own in terms of rebounding.

That Lopez, Giannis, and Porter front court killed us, and while Stevens kind of helped in terms of being physical, Lopez did not. That's supposed to be his role and he wasn't all that effective against KAT and Gobert.

It doesn't help that Isiah Mobley really isn't an NBA player. At least Moses Brown could give you something resembling NBA minutes.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:Too many Cavs fans underrate Allen, we miss Lauri, and we need another backup center.

We basically have Love as a reliable shooter off the bench and that's it. I'm really worried about Wade's ability to stay healthy because if he can't start, I think we need to make a trade, and the cupboards are pretty bare.

Hate to keep harping on it but why it's so important to having future firsts available to trade, only having 1 swap just really makes the Cavs have to sit pat, especially riding right up against the luxury tax.

I'd give it until the end of December, but if Wade can't stay healthy playing serious minutes, then the Cavs have a decision to make regarding whether having three guys like LeVert, Stevens, and Okoro is a luxury they can really afford. It's not like Rubio is an elite shooter.

I really only got to watch the first half (and a bit of the fourth before garbage time). Garland and Mitchell (and LeVert) were really struggling to break into the paint. A lot of our offense ended up revolving around generating offense from 12ft and further out which we ended up hitting a lot of those shots (especially threes).

Not having Allen, you'd expect the Bucks points in the paint to be wild, but they also made their game from the three. They ended up shooting 39 of them and hitting at above 40%.

I have an inkling for why we were giving up so many threes; Giannis commands a double team and a wall each time and leads to extremely easy passes and hard defensive rotations for our guys. Brook hitting 8/9 threes killed us. Since I wasn't able to watch the second half, I can only assume that Mobley stuck closer to Brook afterwards leading to easy buckets in the paint. Definitely correct me if I am wrong.

LeVert is a guy that has to get to the basket consistently to get his game going everywhere else. He's been really struggling from his turn around middie he can generate almost every time. Bucks pack the paint so it definitely wasn't his best match-up, but I'd like to see him find ways to impact the offense because that is why he is out there. He can look lost.

I wrote down a few plays drawn up that I liked in the 1st and 2nd quarters. One was a Mitcjell Mobley PNR where Mobley rolled to set a flair screen for Garland which lead to an open look. We had another similar play for LeVert I liked. To end the first, we had a gorgeous small small PNR with Garland and Mitchell that defenses look lost trying to defend.

ijspeelman wrote:I really only got to watch the first half (and a bit of the fourth before garbage time). Garland and Mitchell (and LeVert) were really struggling to break into the paint. A lot of our offense ended up revolving around generating offense from 12ft and further out which we ended up hitting a lot of those shots (especially threes).

Not having Allen, you'd expect the Bucks points in the paint to be wild, but they also made their game from the three. They ended up shooting 39 of them and hitting at above 40%.

I have an inkling for why we were giving up so many threes; Giannis commands a double team and a wall each time and leads to extremely easy passes and hard defensive rotations for our guys. Brook hitting 8/9 threes killed us. Since I wasn't able to watch the second half, I can only assume that Mobley stuck closer to Brook afterwards leading to easy buckets in the paint. Definitely correct me if I am wrong.

LeVert is a guy that has to get to the basket consistently to get his game going everywhere else. He's been really struggling from his turn around middie he can generate almost every time. Bucks pack the paint so it definitely wasn't his best match-up, but I'd like to see him find ways to impact the offense because that is why he is out there. He can look lost.

I wrote down a few plays drawn up that I liked in the 1st and 2nd quarters. One was a Mitcjell Mobley PNR where Mobley rolled to set a flair screen for Garland which lead to an open look. We had another similar play for LeVert I liked. To end the first, we had a gorgeous small small PNR with Garland and Mitchell that defenses look lost trying to defend.

Brook Lopez plays illegal defense on almost every play. There was one defensive sequence where it was comical. He was standing in the middle of the paint, held his arm out towards a ghost player who wasn't there, saw no one was there, and held his other arm out in the opposite direction.

If the officials aren't going to call that, and they absolutely should, then you have to punish that *drop coverage* by hitting shots off the high PNR. But that Lopez, Portis, Giannis rotation just murdered us last night. Especially on the defensive glass.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:Too many Cavs fans underrate Allen, we miss Lauri, and we need another backup center.

We basically have Love as a reliable shooter off the bench and that's it. I'm really worried about Wade's ability to stay healthy because if he can't start, I think we need to make a trade, and the cupboards are pretty bare.

Hate to keep harping on it but why it's so important to having future firsts available to trade, only having 1 swap just really makes the Cavs have to sit pat, especially riding right up against the luxury tax.

Careful what you wish for, we haven't always spent our draft picks wisely in our search for a quick fix for the roster.

Building up useful depth can take time, and it looks like things like being able to play defense without Allen and Garland figuring out how to play with Mitchell is also going to take time.

DG was -1 in this game while Mitchell was -17 which tells us Garland was +16 when Mitchell wasn't on the floor.

If I was JBB, I'd strongly consider going to a hockey-shift style rotation for a while to give Garland and Mitchell as many minutes together as possible and to better manage their energy level. In other words, I'm not sure I like Garland coming out playing passively then turning it on when it's "his turn" while Mitchell is sitting. And I'm not sure I like Mitchell trying to get something out of the second unit when he's already been on the floor for 8 minutes straight.

They need to learn how to both play at 100% together. If they don't it won't be long until we start hearing one of them has to go and the NY media will be sharpening their knives.

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:Too many Cavs fans underrate Allen, we miss Lauri, and we need another backup center.

We basically have Love as a reliable shooter off the bench and that's it. I'm really worried about Wade's ability to stay healthy because if he can't start, I think we need to make a trade, and the cupboards are pretty bare.

Hate to keep harping on it but why it's so important to having future firsts available to trade, only having 1 swap just really makes the Cavs have to sit pat, especially riding right up against the luxury tax.

Careful what you wish for, we haven't always spent our draft picks wisely in our search for a quick fix for the roster.

Building up useful depth can take time, and it looks like things like being able to play defense without Allen and Garland figuring out how to play with Mitchell is also going to take time.

DG was -1 in this game while Mitchell was -17 which tells us Garland was +16 when Mitchell wasn't on the floor.

If I was JBB, I'd strongly consider going to a hockey-shift style rotation for a while to give Garland and Mitchell as many minutes together as possible and to better manage their energy level. In other words, I'm not sure I like Garland coming out playing passively then turning it on when it's "his turn" while Mitchell is sitting. And I'm not sure I like Mitchell trying to get something out of the second unit when he's already been on the floor for 8 minutes straight.

They need to learn how to both play at 100% together. If they don't it won't be long until we start hearing one of them has to go and the NY media will be sharpening their knives.

Rubio coming back would make that kind of rotation possible. As it is, we can't take Garland and Mitchell off the floor at the same time and expect to play well.

jbk1234 wrote:

toooskies wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:Too many Cavs fans underrate Allen, we miss Lauri, and we need another backup center.

We basically have Love as a reliable shooter off the bench and that's it. I'm really worried about Wade's ability to stay healthy because if he can't start, I think we need to make a trade, and the cupboards are pretty bare.

I thought Lopez was supposed to be the backup C but if he's only going to play 14 minutes when Allen is out, I agree.

He's just way too slow to adequately defend the high PNR, he's also basically unplayable with Love, and tonight he couldn't even hold his own in terms of rebounding.

That Lopez, Giannis, and Porter front court killed us, and while Stevens kind of helped in terms of being physical, Lopez did not. That's supposed to be his role and he wasn't all that effective against KAT and Gobert.

It doesn't help that Isiah Mobley really isn't an NBA player. At least Moses Brown could give you something resembling NBA minutes.

JBB's defense seems to leave us vulnerable to opponents having hot nights from 3 and killing us. He needs to do some thinking about what we can do when both Mobley and Allen aren't on the floor to cover for each other or when both of them are pulled out of the paint.

I mean, sure, he can cross his fingers and hope Brook Lopez misses wide open 3pt shots, or he can cross his fingers and hope Giannis blows dunks on our weak side defender (LeVert, Garland, Mitchell) but those are both lousy options.

And why are we running P&R / P&P actions where only the ball handler is involved in the play after the screen is set? Mobley hasn't even attempted a 3pter in the last 4 games and hasn't made one in the last 8. Garland and Mitchell should be able to make Lopez pay for dropping back, but the defense can overplay them when Evan just stands around and takes himself out of the play.

On the bright side, I liked the pin down actions we ran to free up our guards for open shots.

Kudos to Budenholzer, he always has the Bucks even short-handed well prepared. No Holiday, no Middleton, no Ingles, and Giannis had a bleh game ... and they just shrug us off because JBB can't come up with something to counter the Bucks gameplan.

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

toooskies wrote:I thought Lopez was supposed to be the backup C but if he's only going to play 14 minutes when Allen is out, I agree.

He's just way too slow to adequately defend the high PNR, he's also basically unplayable with Love, and tonight he couldn't even hold his own in terms of rebounding.

That Lopez, Giannis, and Porter front court killed us, and while Stevens kind of helped in terms of being physical, Lopez did not. That's supposed to be his role and he wasn't all that effective against KAT and Gobert.

It doesn't help that Isiah Mobley really isn't an NBA player. At least Moses Brown could give you something resembling NBA minutes.

JBB's defense seems to leave us vulnerable to opponents having hot nights from 3 and killing us. He needs to do some thinking about what we can do when both Mobley and Allen aren't on the floor to cover for each other or when both of them are pulled out of the paint.

I mean, sure, he can cross his fingers and hope Brook Lopez misses wide open 3pt shots, or he can cross his fingers and hope Giannis blows dunks on our weak side defender (LeVert, Garland, Mitchell) but those are both lousy options.

And why are we running P&R / P&P actions where only the ball handler is involved in the play after the screen is set? Mobley hasn't even attempted a 3pter in the last 4 games and hasn't made one in the last 8. Garland and Mitchell should be able to make Lopez pay for dropping back, but the defense can overplay them when Evan just stands around and takes himself out of the play.

On the bright side, I liked the pin down actions we ran to free up our guards for open shots.

Kudos to Budenholzer, he always has the Bucks even short-handed well prepared. No Holiday, no Middleton, no Ingles, and Giannis had a bleh game ... and they just shrug us off because JBB can't come up with something to counter the Bucks gameplan.

I'm not really seeing a way to scheme around what are likely roster issues. I'm not pressing the panic button, but Lopez is a third-string center in the Perkins mold at this point in his career. If Wade and Windler can't stay healthy, we've got a problem.

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:Too many Cavs fans underrate Allen, we miss Lauri, and we need another backup center.

We basically have Love as a reliable shooter off the bench and that's it. I'm really worried about Wade's ability to stay healthy because if he can't start, I think we need to make a trade, and the cupboards are pretty bare.

Hate to keep harping on it but why it's so important to having future firsts available to trade, only having 1 swap just really makes the Cavs have to sit pat, especially riding right up against the luxury tax.

Careful what you wish for, we haven't always spent our draft picks wisely in our search for a quick fix for the roster.

Building up useful depth can take time, and it looks like things like being able to play defense without Allen and Garland figuring out how to play with Mitchell is also going to take time.

DG was -1 in this game while Mitchell was -17 which tells us Garland was +16 when Mitchell wasn't on the floor.

If I was JBB, I'd strongly consider going to a hockey-shift style rotation for a while to give Garland and Mitchell as many minutes together as possible and to better manage their energy level. In other words, I'm not sure I like Garland coming out playing passively then turning it on when it's "his turn" while Mitchell is sitting. And I'm not sure I like Mitchell trying to get something out of the second unit when he's already been on the floor for 8 minutes straight.

They need to learn how to both play at 100% together. If they don't it won't be long until we start hearing one of them has to go and the NY media will be sharpening their knives.

The Cavs have 2 undersized guards that occupy similar space and play similar roles. Without a Kerr, Pop, or to a much lesser extent Phil type offense, the Cavs are gonna fall victim to "your turn, my turn".

JB is a good motivator and defensive minded coach but the offense isn't gonna have 2 of LeVert, Mitchell, and Garland just waiting around while 1 guy goes to work.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
He's just way too slow to adequately defend the high PNR, he's also basically unplayable with Love, and tonight he couldn't even hold his own in terms of rebounding.

That Lopez, Giannis, and Porter front court killed us, and while Stevens kind of helped in terms of being physical, Lopez did not. That's supposed to be his role and he wasn't all that effective against KAT and Gobert.

It doesn't help that Isiah Mobley really isn't an NBA player. At least Moses Brown could give you something resembling NBA minutes.

JBB's defense seems to leave us vulnerable to opponents having hot nights from 3 and killing us. He needs to do some thinking about what we can do when both Mobley and Allen aren't on the floor to cover for each other or when both of them are pulled out of the paint.

I mean, sure, he can cross his fingers and hope Brook Lopez misses wide open 3pt shots, or he can cross his fingers and hope Giannis blows dunks on our weak side defender (LeVert, Garland, Mitchell) but those are both lousy options.

And why are we running P&R / P&P actions where only the ball handler is involved in the play after the screen is set? Mobley hasn't even attempted a 3pter in the last 4 games and hasn't made one in the last 8. Garland and Mitchell should be able to make Lopez pay for dropping back, but the defense can overplay them when Evan just stands around and takes himself out of the play.

On the bright side, I liked the pin down actions we ran to free up our guards for open shots.

Kudos to Budenholzer, he always has the Bucks even short-handed well prepared. No Holiday, no Middleton, no Ingles, and Giannis had a bleh game ... and they just shrug us off because JBB can't come up with something to counter the Bucks gameplan.

I'm not really seeing a way to scheme around what are likely roster issues. I'm not pressing the panic button, but Lopez is a third-string center in the Perkins mold at this point in his career. If Wade and Windler can't stay healthy, we've got a problem.

Part of the problem may be JBB hasn't been willing to use his bench, so those guys tend to be out of sorts when they eventually see minutes, but he has options he can cycle through before throwing in the towel and to give him a little credit ... we gave up only one wide open shot to Lopez in the second half.

Even with our injuries, there are still way too many player combinations and defensive schemes for me to assume there isn't something that wouldn't have helped us at least contest both Lopez and Giannis.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:Hate to keep harping on it but why it's so important to having future firsts available to trade, only having 1 swap just really makes the Cavs have to sit pat, especially riding right up against the luxury tax.

Careful what you wish for, we haven't always spent our draft picks wisely in our search for a quick fix for the roster.

Building up useful depth can take time, and it looks like things like being able to play defense without Allen and Garland figuring out how to play with Mitchell is also going to take time.

DG was -1 in this game while Mitchell was -17 which tells us Garland was +16 when Mitchell wasn't on the floor.

If I was JBB, I'd strongly consider going to a hockey-shift style rotation for a while to give Garland and Mitchell as many minutes together as possible and to better manage their energy level. In other words, I'm not sure I like Garland coming out playing passively then turning it on when it's "his turn" while Mitchell is sitting. And I'm not sure I like Mitchell trying to get something out of the second unit when he's already been on the floor for 8 minutes straight.

They need to learn how to both play at 100% together. If they don't it won't be long until we start hearing one of them has to go and the NY media will be sharpening their knives.

The Cavs have 2 undersized guards that occupy similar space and play similar roles. Without a Kerr, Pop, or to a much lesser extent Phil type offense, the Cavs are gonna fall victim to "your turn, my turn".

JB is a good motivator and defensive minded coach but the offense isn't gonna have 2 of LeVert, Mitchell, and Garland just waiting around while 1 guy goes to work.

Counterpoint: Garland/Rubio worked really well last year. There's plenty of 2-guard offenses that work well, the Cavs just need to get out of habit of calling their own number, or only playing hard when you're getting an opportunity.

Most of our problems are defensive (worst team in the league defensively during the losing streak) and that boils down to Allen and Wade being out, us shifting Mobley to C which hurts us at two spots on the floor, us overplaying starters who get winded by the end of the game, and a few ridiculous performances by Russell and BroLo that were too much to overcome.

toooskies wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
Careful what you wish for, we haven't always spent our draft picks wisely in our search for a quick fix for the roster.

Building up useful depth can take time, and it looks like things like being able to play defense without Allen and Garland figuring out how to play with Mitchell is also going to take time.

DG was -1 in this game while Mitchell was -17 which tells us Garland was +16 when Mitchell wasn't on the floor.

If I was JBB, I'd strongly consider going to a hockey-shift style rotation for a while to give Garland and Mitchell as many minutes together as possible and to better manage their energy level. In other words, I'm not sure I like Garland coming out playing passively then turning it on when it's "his turn" while Mitchell is sitting. And I'm not sure I like Mitchell trying to get something out of the second unit when he's already been on the floor for 8 minutes straight.

They need to learn how to both play at 100% together. If they don't it won't be long until we start hearing one of them has to go and the NY media will be sharpening their knives.

The Cavs have 2 undersized guards that occupy similar space and play similar roles. Without a Kerr, Pop, or to a much lesser extent Phil type offense, the Cavs are gonna fall victim to "your turn, my turn".

JB is a good motivator and defensive minded coach but the offense isn't gonna have 2 of LeVert, Mitchell, and Garland just waiting around while 1 guy goes to work.

Counterpoint: Garland/Rubio worked really well last year. There's plenty of 2-guard offenses that work well, the Cavs just need to get out of habit of calling their own number, or only playing hard when you're getting an opportunity.

Most of our problems are defensive (worst team in the league defensively during the losing streak) and that boils down to Allen and Wade being out, us shifting Mobley to C which hurts us at two spots on the floor, us overplaying starters who get winded by the end of the game, and a few ridiculous performances by Russell and BroLo that were too much to overcome.

Good points, and for those counting on "regression to the mean", the Cavs shot 43% from 3pt against the #1 defense.

It just seems JBB is going to overplay them until they find the energy to sustain the level of effort he wants or they break down with injury. Albeit, it was out of character for him to pull the starters against the Bucks when we weren't even on a back to back - clearly didn't like what he was seeing.

toooskies wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
Careful what you wish for, we haven't always spent our draft picks wisely in our search for a quick fix for the roster.

Building up useful depth can take time, and it looks like things like being able to play defense without Allen and Garland figuring out how to play with Mitchell is also going to take time.

DG was -1 in this game while Mitchell was -17 which tells us Garland was +16 when Mitchell wasn't on the floor.

If I was JBB, I'd strongly consider going to a hockey-shift style rotation for a while to give Garland and Mitchell as many minutes together as possible and to better manage their energy level. In other words, I'm not sure I like Garland coming out playing passively then turning it on when it's "his turn" while Mitchell is sitting. And I'm not sure I like Mitchell trying to get something out of the second unit when he's already been on the floor for 8 minutes straight.

They need to learn how to both play at 100% together. If they don't it won't be long until we start hearing one of them has to go and the NY media will be sharpening their knives.

The Cavs have 2 undersized guards that occupy similar space and play similar roles. Without a Kerr, Pop, or to a much lesser extent Phil type offense, the Cavs are gonna fall victim to "your turn, my turn".

JB is a good motivator and defensive minded coach but the offense isn't gonna have 2 of LeVert, Mitchell, and Garland just waiting around while 1 guy goes to work.

Counterpoint: Garland/Rubio worked really well last year. There's plenty of 2-guard offenses that work well, the Cavs just need to get out of habit of calling their own number, or only playing hard when you're getting an opportunity.

Most of our problems are defensive (worst team in the league defensively during the losing streak) and that boils down to Allen and Wade being out, us shifting Mobley to C which hurts us at two spots on the floor, us overplaying starters who get winded by the end of the game, and a few ridiculous performances by Russell and BroLo that were too much to overcome.

As pointed out when the trade happened though, Rubio is a better defender than either of Garland or Mitchell.

As wel, Mitchell has had some high assist nights early in the season but historically it's not a stretch to say Rubio is a better facilitator than Mitchell.