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Cavs continue to tread water. Mr 4 firsts Mitchell missing a big free throw and doing nothing in the 4th. This was a big game he should be taking over. Very disappointing......wade was wide open whole he was playing hero ball.

I am going from being underwhelmed by the trade to feeling like it's going to be a disaster when it's all said and done. Mitchell and Garland looks like a terrible pairing. They don't compliment each other in any way. The cavs made a mistake they have to undo that mistake before it's too late.

I'm getting really tired of watching this team win one then lose one then win one etc. I have many excuses for the losses tonight, but I don't feel like dwelling on them anymore. I need these Cavs to put together some wins, even if teams are having hot shooting nights. Only positive is we keep losing extremely winnable games. Its better than being blown out ig.

We played elite defense all night and the Heat just continue to hit shots and get foul shots. Why does it feel like we never get teams on off-nights?

Legitimately, this felt like one of our best defensive nights this season and the stats will not back me up.

From a stats and eye test POV, we are not giving up a lot of easy shots and to good shooters, but teams keep making them.

ijspeelman wrote:We played elite defense all night and the Heat just continue to hit shots and get foul shots. Why does it feel like we never get teams on off-nights?

Legitimately, this felt like one of our best defensive nights this season and the stats will not back me up.

From a stats and eye test POV, we are not giving up a lot of easy shots and to good shooters, but teams keep making them.

As I keep saying, at some point it is more than bad luck.

afarmenian wrote:Cavs continue to tread water. Mr 4 firsts Mitchell missing a big free throw and doing nothing in the 4th. This was a big game he should be taking over. Very disappointing......wade was wide open whole he was playing hero ball.

I am going from being underwhelmed by the trade to feeling like it's going to be a disaster when it's all said and done. Mitchell and Garland looks like a terrible pairing. They don't compliment each other in any way. The cavs made a mistake they have to undo that mistake before it's top late.

Mr 6 firsts lol

JujitsuFlip wrote:

ijspeelman wrote:We played elite defense all night and the Heat just continue to hit shots and get foul shots. Why does it feel like we never get teams on off-nights?

Legitimately, this felt like one of our best defensive nights this season and the stats will not back me up.

From a stats and eye test POV, we are not giving up a lot of easy shots and to good shooters, but teams keep making them.

As I keep saying, at some point it is more than bad luck.

I don't agree, but its not an argument I feel like making anymore

A few thoughts: Mitchell really needs to get in the habit of taking what the other team gives us early. He had 9 assists which were good. He was 3 of 13 from range, which was not, and many of those shots came early on and early in the shot clock. The Heat were willing to live with the miss match on Allen and Mobley down low, and while we eventually took advantage of it, there were a bunch of missed opportunities. We're not the Jazz. Allen and Mobley aren't Gobert. Get your teammates going and make the opposing team adjust in-game.

I'm completely done with the Mobley corner three. It's a wasted possession. He doesn't follow his shot or get back in transition. Remove it from the playbook for the rest of the season. There's enough space inside the arc for him to go to work in. The other team is absolutely thrilled every time Mobley attempts a three.

Wade needs more PT with the starters. If we need to trade for another floor spacer off the bench, then go ahead and do it. But the starting unit needs the spacing he can provide, and the starters need him out there so they can learn how to play with another credible shooter. It's clunky right now.

Levert shouldn't regularly play with both Garland and Mitchell. If the opposing team has a glaring defensive weakness they're trying to hide, I'm open to an audible, but otherwise, stagger him when one of Mitchell or Garland rest. Garland said after the game that our spacing was jacked in the 4th quarter and that's the first time I've heard him say anything that could be construed as being critical of the coaching staff.

Lastly, I know Butler is a star but I absolutely hate offensive players forcing contact and getting rewarded with free throws. This game was officiated like a playoff game with one glaring exception. At a minimum, I want to see those plays result in a non-call. I would've challenged that first foul on Garland when Butler kicked his legs out on that three point attempt. Nip that garbage right in the bud. Pick up a T the next time it happens. Get tossed after the third time. You're playing at home. You have a right to expect neutral officiating and you don't want to waitintil the playoffs to get it on the league's radar.

ijspeelman wrote:We played elite defense all night and the Heat just continue to hit shots and get foul shots. Why does it feel like we never get teams on off-nights?

Legitimately, this felt like one of our best defensive nights this season and the stats will not back me up.

From a stats and eye test POV, we are not giving up a lot of easy shots and to good shooters, but teams keep making them.

The Cavs play hustle defense. They don’t play good defense, yet. They have two aces that make up for a lot.

This team is small. RoLo is an end of the bench player and Love is right behind him at this point. This team lacks depth. We knew that would be the case with the timing of the Mitchell trade.

The roster imbalance makes this team very beatable. That goes back to the pain of sending Markkanen to Utah and keeping LeVert; even without this years development.


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KuruptedCav wrote:

ijspeelman wrote:We played elite defense all night and the Heat just continue to hit shots and get foul shots. Why does it feel like we never get teams on off-nights?

Legitimately, this felt like one of our best defensive nights this season and the stats will not back me up.

From a stats and eye test POV, we are not giving up a lot of easy shots and to good shooters, but teams keep making them.

The Cavs play hustle defense. They don’t play good defense, yet. They have two aces that make up for a lot.

This team is small. RoLo is an end of the bench player and Love is right behind him at this point. This team lacks depth. We knew that would be the case with the timing of the Mitchell trade.

The roster imbalance makes this team very beatable. That goes back to the pain of sending Markkanen to Utah and keeping LeVert; even without this years development.


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You hold the opposing team to 100 points, you've got to win that game. There were too many wasted possessions which we cannot do against good defensive teams.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

ijspeelman wrote:We played elite defense all night and the Heat just continue to hit shots and get foul shots. Why does it feel like we never get teams on off-nights?

Legitimately, this felt like one of our best defensive nights this season and the stats will not back me up.

From a stats and eye test POV, we are not giving up a lot of easy shots and to good shooters, but teams keep making them.

As I keep saying, at some point it is more than bad luck.

If you’re one of the best teams in the league at contesting shots (which we are) and the other team is still hitting them at a higher rate compared to other teams playing worse defense, that’s bad luck.

afarmenian wrote:Cavs continue to tread water. Mr 4 firsts Mitchell missing a big free throw and doing nothing in the 4th. This was a big game he should be taking over. Very disappointing......wade was wide open whole he was playing hero ball.

I am going from being underwhelmed by the trade to feeling like it's going to be a disaster when it's all said and done. Mitchell and Garland looks like a terrible pairing. They don't compliment each other in any way. The cavs made a mistake they have to undo that mistake before it's top late.

Underwhelmed by the trade? Mitchell’s an all star starter and Cleveland has a top ten offense despite Kevin Love practically becoming unplayable at this point.

What were you expecting? Mitchell to be a top three player in the league?

TheLand13 wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

ijspeelman wrote:We played elite defense all night and the Heat just continue to hit shots and get foul shots. Why does it feel like we never get teams on off-nights?

Legitimately, this felt like one of our best defensive nights this season and the stats will not back me up.

From a stats and eye test POV, we are not giving up a lot of easy shots and to good shooters, but teams keep making them.

As I keep saying, at some point it is more than bad luck.

If you’re one of the best teams in the league at contesting shots (which we are) and the other team is still hitting them at a higher rate compared to other teams playing worse defense, that’s bad luck.

Maybe, maybe not. We start three dudes who are 6 feet tall. I just don't believe in coincidence, not all contested shots are made equal. Shooting over a Giannis, KD, AD hand up is far different than shooting over a Garland, Mitchell, Okoro hand up.

jbk1234 wrote:

KuruptedCav wrote:

ijspeelman wrote:We played elite defense all night and the Heat just continue to hit shots and get foul shots. Why does it feel like we never get teams on off-nights?

Legitimately, this felt like one of our best defensive nights this season and the stats will not back me up.

From a stats and eye test POV, we are not giving up a lot of easy shots and to good shooters, but teams keep making them.

The Cavs play hustle defense. They don’t play good defense, yet. They have two aces that make up for a lot.

This team is small. RoLo is an end of the bench player and Love is right behind him at this point. This team lacks depth. We knew that would be the case with the timing of the Mitchell trade.

The roster imbalance makes this team very beatable. That goes back to the pain of sending Markkanen to Utah and keeping LeVert; even without this years development.


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You hold the opposing team to 100 points, you've got to win that game. There were too many wasted possessions which we cannot do against good defensive teams.

Too many wasted possessions in part because the Heat are a good defensive team.

More because the Cavs are predictable due in part to roster construction and limited rotations.

Opponents getting hot and Cavs getting cold is a theme at this point. I doubt it’s because of talent.


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TheLand13 wrote:

afarmenian wrote:Cavs continue to tread water. Mr 4 firsts Mitchell missing a big free throw and doing nothing in the 4th. This was a big game he should be taking over. Very disappointing......wade was wide open whole he was playing hero ball.

I am going from being underwhelmed by the trade to feeling like it's going to be a disaster when it's all said and done. Mitchell and Garland looks like a terrible pairing. They don't compliment each other in any way. The cavs made a mistake they have to undo that mistake before it's top late.

Underwhelmed by the trade? Mitchell’s an all star starter and Cleveland has a top ten offense despite Kevin Love practically becoming unplayable at this point.

What were you expecting? Mitchell to be a top three player in the league?

I was expecting an impact. Honestly what's the impact? Same win total as last year. A bit better offense. Every team has role players that Decline or disappoint. You had two huge games now against Eastern conference playoff teams and he was invisible. Top 3 player no but a top 10 should be taking over these games. He is nice to have in that when Garland was out its not a disaster but I dont see anything he brings that guy like Brunsen, Murray, Brogdon, Jordan Poole....there are lots of volume scorers that could be put in this role.

Great he is an all star......now can he add wins like one.

KuruptedCav wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

KuruptedCav wrote:The Cavs play hustle defense. They don’t play good defense, yet. They have two aces that make up for a lot.

This team is small. RoLo is an end of the bench player and Love is right behind him at this point. This team lacks depth. We knew that would be the case with the timing of the Mitchell trade.

The roster imbalance makes this team very beatable. That goes back to the pain of sending Markkanen to Utah and keeping LeVert; even without this years development.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You hold the opposing team to 100 points, you've got to win that game. There were too many wasted possessions which we cannot do against good defensive teams.

Too many wasted possessions in part because the Heat are a good defensive team.

More because the Cavs are predictable due in part to roster construction and limited rotations.

Opponents getting hot and Cavs getting cold is a theme at this point. I doubt it’s because of talent.


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No, by wasted possession, I mean possessions that are wasted by dumb and/or careless play. Mitchell jacking up a bunch of threes early in the shot clock in early in the game are wasted possessions. Mobley taking a corner three late in the game, or any time really, is a wasted possession. Okoro not making sure both feet are in bounds, when the closest defender is 5 feet away, late in the game is a wasted possession. LeVert driving into a crowded paint with no plan B is a wasted possession against almost any team.

No team ever plays a perfect game, but against good defensive teams, if you give away possessions, you're not going to score enough to win. In the year 2023, you need to be able to score more than 100 points.

afarmenian wrote:

TheLand13 wrote:

afarmenian wrote:Cavs continue to tread water. Mr 4 firsts Mitchell missing a big free throw and doing nothing in the 4th. This was a big game he should be taking over. Very disappointing......wade was wide open whole he was playing hero ball.

I am going from being underwhelmed by the trade to feeling like it's going to be a disaster when it's all said and done. Mitchell and Garland looks like a terrible pairing. They don't compliment each other in any way. The cavs made a mistake they have to undo that mistake before it's top late.

Underwhelmed by the trade? Mitchell’s an all star starter and Cleveland has a top ten offense despite Kevin Love practically becoming unplayable at this point.

What were you expecting? Mitchell to be a top three player in the league?

I was expecting an impact. Honestly what's the impact? Same win total as last year. A bit better offense. Every team has role players that Decline or disappoint. You had two huge games now against Eastern conference playoff teams and he was invisible. Top 3 player no but a top 10 should be taking over these games. He is nice to have in that when Garland was out its not a disaster but I dont see anything he brings that guy like Brunsen, Murray, Brogdon, Jordan Poole....there are lots of volume scorers that could be put in this role.

Great he is an all star......now can he add wins like one.

Some of this is fixable though in terms of him getting his teammates going early and learning how to play with more talent than he had in Utah. Wade needs to start and finish so that all of Allen, Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland have more space to operate in.

But not all value added shows up on the stat sheet. When Simmons or Butler are on Mitchell, they're not on Garland. When teams double Garland late in the game, there's another guy out there who can take over. It takes time and reps to be able to maximize those advantages though and this team is still very much figuring stuff out.

jbk1234 wrote:

afarmenian wrote:

TheLand13 wrote:
Underwhelmed by the trade? Mitchell’s an all star starter and Cleveland has a top ten offense despite Kevin Love practically becoming unplayable at this point.

What were you expecting? Mitchell to be a top three player in the league?

I was expecting an impact. Honestly what's the impact? Same win total as last year. A bit better offense. Every team has role players that Decline or disappoint. You had two huge games now against Eastern conference playoff teams and he was invisible. Top 3 player no but a top 10 should be taking over these games. He is nice to have in that when Garland was out its not a disaster but I dont see anything he brings that guy like Brunsen, Murray, Brogdon, Jordan Poole....there are lots of volume scorers that could be put in this role.

Great he is an all star......now can he add wins like one.

Some of this is fixable though in terms of him getting his teammates going early and learning how to play with more talent than he had in Utah. Wade needs to start and finish so that all of Allen, Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland have more space to operate in.

But not all value added shows up on the stat sheet. When Simmons or Butler are on Mitchell, they're not on Garland. When teams double Garland late in the game, there's another guy out there who can take over. It takes time and reps to be able to maximize those advantages though and this team is still very much figuring stuff out.

This hits on my main point ... these losses hurt because we played so well and should have won; but most of the reasons we lost are fixable.

Can JBB help the guys fix them? Will they figure it out on their own? How long will it take? How much of it is bumps & bruises like Mitchell's hamstring?

We'll just have to see.

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

afarmenian wrote:
I was expecting an impact. Honestly what's the impact? Same win total as last year. A bit better offense. Every team has role players that Decline or disappoint. You had two huge games now against Eastern conference playoff teams and he was invisible. Top 3 player no but a top 10 should be taking over these games. He is nice to have in that when Garland was out its not a disaster but I dont see anything he brings that guy like Brunsen, Murray, Brogdon, Jordan Poole....there are lots of volume scorers that could be put in this role.

Great he is an all star......now can he add wins like one.

Some of this is fixable though in terms of him getting his teammates going early and learning how to play with more talent than he had in Utah. Wade needs to start and finish so that all of Allen, Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland have more space to operate in.

But not all value added shows up on the stat sheet. When Simmons or Butler are on Mitchell, they're not on Garland. When teams double Garland late in the game, there's another guy out there who can take over. It takes time and reps to be able to maximize those advantages though and this team is still very much figuring stuff out.

This hits on my main point ... these losses hurt because we played so well and should have won; but most of the reasons we lost are fixable.

Can JBB help the guys fix them? Will they figure it out on their own? How long will it take? How much of it is bumps & bruises like Mitchell's hamstring?

We'll just have to see.

My big issue is that it takes us a little too long to see what the other team is giving us. I mean Miami's game plan was all kinds of stupid last night. They had no answer to Allen and Mobley inside and were content with getting punished in the key if it meant they could maximize their perimeter defense. That's a gift.

Allen and Mobley were a combined 33 points on 23 attempts and that's with Mobley jacking up two ill-advised three-point attempts (which really needs to stop btw). It was there for most of the night and in a game you only lost by three, three or four more passes inside would've made the difference.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
Some of this is fixable though in terms of him getting his teammates going early and learning how to play with more talent than he had in Utah. Wade needs to start and finish so that all of Allen, Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland have more space to operate in.

But not all value added shows up on the stat sheet. When Simmons or Butler are on Mitchell, they're not on Garland. When teams double Garland late in the game, there's another guy out there who can take over. It takes time and reps to be able to maximize those advantages though and this team is still very much figuring stuff out.

This hits on my main point ... these losses hurt because we played so well and should have won; but most of the reasons we lost are fixable.

Can JBB help the guys fix them? Will they figure it out on their own? How long will it take? How much of it is bumps & bruises like Mitchell's hamstring?

We'll just have to see.

My big issue is that it takes us a little too long to see what the other team is giving us. I mean Miami's game plan was all kinds of stupid last night. They had no answer to Allen and Mobley inside and were content with getting punished in the key if it meant they could maximize their perimeter defense. That's a gift.

Allen and Mobley were a combined 33 points on 23 attempts and that's with Mobley jacking up two ill-advised three-point attempts (which really needs to stop btw). It was there for most of the night and in a game you only lost by three, three or four more passes inside would've made the difference.

Short of being able to listen in to the bench huddles, it's just hard to say what's going on. We apparently play a lot of random offense and that implies to me that a lot of the decision making is on the fly on the floor and the players just need to work it out and learn to deal with nuances such as what's a good shot for Donovan Mitchell when 100% is not necessarily a good shot recovering from a hamstring injury.

As for Evan, he was 2 for 2 and 1 for 1 on his 3's in the past two games - so I can certainly understand hoping he'd make them. And while it would be a lot smarter for them to push their advantage in the paint, it's always been easier said than done when opponents are able to pack the paint.