RealGM

Iwasawitness wrote:I… don’t have words. I wasn’t expecting us to be dominating Boston to start out the game.

JujitsuFlip wrote:The Celtics starting 5 is exactly how i want the Cavs to be constructed.

2 guards who are great defenders, can shoot it, and facilitate/ball handle.

2 forwards who a good to great defenders, can shoot, score, and create for others situationally.

Lastly, a stretch 5 who can block shots.

Jrue: 4.5 three attempts on 37.2%, +1.4 DBPM

White: 5.8 three attempts on 41%, +2.0 DBPM

Brown: 6.9 three attempts on 34.1%, +0.6 DBPM

Tatum: 8.6 three attempts on 35 6%, +1.2 DBPM

KP: 5 three attempts on 33.8%, +2.5 DBPM

For the modern NBA, this is the optimal line-up. They obviously traded for 3 of the 5 and have absolutely no depth but if they can stay healthy, they're my favorite to come outta the East.

jbk1234 wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:The Celtics starting 5 is exactly how i want the Cavs to be constructed.

2 guards who are great defenders, can shoot it, and facilitate/ball handle.

2 forwards who a good to great defenders, can shoot, score, and create for others situationally.

Lastly, a stretch 5 who can block shots.

Jrue: 4.5 three attempts on 37.2%, +1.4 DBPM

White: 5.8 three attempts on 41%, +2.0 DBPM

Brown: 6.9 three attempts on 34.1%, +0.6 DBPM

Tatum: 8.6 three attempts on 35 6%, +1.2 DBPM

KP: 5 three attempts on 33.8%, +2.5 DBPM

For the modern NBA, this is the optimal line-up. They obviously traded for 3 of the 5 and have absolutely no depth but if they can stay healthy, they're my favorite to come outta the East.

I think the Celtics are the favorites to come out of the East, but they should want no part of us in a seven game series. We matchup pretty well against them if we're healthy. Allen and Mobley are really difficult for them to deal with. Tatum would have to guard him. Bringing in Horford at his age, and sending White to the bench isn't something they're going to want to do.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:The Celtics starting 5 is exactly how i want the Cavs to be constructed.

2 guards who are great defenders, can shoot it, and facilitate/ball handle.

2 forwards who a good to great defenders, can shoot, score, and create for others situationally.

Lastly, a stretch 5 who can block shots.

Jrue: 4.5 three attempts on 37.2%, +1.4 DBPM

White: 5.8 three attempts on 41%, +2.0 DBPM

Brown: 6.9 three attempts on 34.1%, +0.6 DBPM

Tatum: 8.6 three attempts on 35 6%, +1.2 DBPM

KP: 5 three attempts on 33.8%, +2.5 DBPM

For the modern NBA, this is the optimal line-up. They obviously traded for 3 of the 5 and have absolutely no depth but if they can stay healthy, they're my favorite to come outta the East.

I think the Celtics are the favorites to come out of the East, but they should want no part of us in a seven game series. We matchup pretty well against them if we're healthy. Allen and Mobley are really difficult for them to deal with. Tatum would have to guard him. Bringing in Horford at his age, and sending White to the bench isn't something they're going to want to do.

If Jb is still the head coach and that is the 1/8 matchup i have the Celtics in a sweep or maybe the Cavs pull out one game. The talent disparity is unreal and every single one of their starting 5 are 2 way players, I'm not sure you could call a single Cavs player a 2 way player, maybe Porter Jr and he can't shoot plus is currently ineligible for the post season.

The only shot the Cavs would have in that 1/8 hypothetical series is several of the Celtics starters getting hurt/suspended or maybe a slightly better shot if anyone not named Jb is the coach.

Not sure where you see the matchup advantages coming from but I'm looking at two guys starting in the back court who are All-Defense and a 3rd guy who is borderline that, plus a 7'3" shot blocker... Who all 5 can shoot to spread out our defense, no thanks i want no parts of that.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:The Celtics starting 5 is exactly how i want the Cavs to be constructed.

2 guards who are great defenders, can shoot it, and facilitate/ball handle.

2 forwards who a good to great defenders, can shoot, score, and create for others situationally.

Lastly, a stretch 5 who can block shots.

Jrue: 4.5 three attempts on 37.2%, +1.4 DBPM

White: 5.8 three attempts on 41%, +2.0 DBPM

Brown: 6.9 three attempts on 34.1%, +0.6 DBPM

Tatum: 8.6 three attempts on 35 6%, +1.2 DBPM

KP: 5 three attempts on 33.8%, +2.5 DBPM

For the modern NBA, this is the optimal line-up. They obviously traded for 3 of the 5 and have absolutely no depth but if they can stay healthy, they're my favorite to come outta the East.

I think the Celtics are the favorites to come out of the East, but they should want no part of us in a seven game series. We matchup pretty well against them if we're healthy. Allen and Mobley are really difficult for them to deal with. Tatum would have to guard him. Bringing in Horford at his age, and sending White to the bench isn't something they're going to want to do.

If Jb is still the head coach and that is the 1/8 matchup i have the Celtics in a sweep or maybe the Cavs pull out one game. The talent disparity is unreal and every single one of their starting 5 are 2 way players, I'm not sure you could call a single Cavs player a 2 way player, maybe Porter Jr and he can't shoot plus is currently ineligible for the post season.

The only shot the Cavs would have in that 1/8 hypothetical series is several of the Celtics starters getting hurt/suspended or maybe a slightly better shot if anyone not named Jb is the coach.

Not sure where you see the matchup advantages coming from but I'm looking at two guys starting in the back court who are All-Defense and a 3rd guy who is borderline that, plus a 7'3" shot blocker... Who all 5 can shoot to spread out our defense, no thanks i want no parts of that.

jbk1234 wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I think the Celtics are the favorites to come out of the East, but they should want no part of us in a seven game series. We matchup pretty well against them if we're healthy. Allen and Mobley are really difficult for them to deal with. Tatum would have to guard him. Bringing in Horford at his age, and sending White to the bench isn't something they're going to want to do.

If Jb is still the head coach and that is the 1/8 matchup i have the Celtics in a sweep or maybe the Cavs pull out one game. The talent disparity is unreal and every single one of their starting 5 are 2 way players, I'm not sure you could call a single Cavs player a 2 way player, maybe Porter Jr and he can't shoot plus is currently ineligible for the post season.

The only shot the Cavs would have in that 1/8 hypothetical series is several of the Celtics starters getting hurt/suspended or maybe a slightly better shot if anyone not named Jb is the coach.

Not sure where you see the matchup advantages coming from but I'm looking at two guys starting in the back court who are All-Defense and a 3rd guy who is borderline that, plus a 7'3" shot blocker... Who all 5 can shoot to spread out our defense, no thanks i want no parts of that.

For most of the game, Garland and Mitchell were getting to where they wanted against a team with so many two way players. Porzingis is strictly a drop coverage center. Away from the basket, he's a defensive liability. A lot could come down to how much energy Tatum has to spend defending and boxing out Mobley.

I think the chances of the Celtics getting gifted 5 consecutive trips to the line in the playoffs are remote.

ijspeelman wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I think the Celtics are the favorites to come out of the East, but they should want no part of us in a seven game series. We matchup pretty well against them if we're healthy. Allen and Mobley are really difficult for them to deal with. Tatum would have to guard him. Bringing in Horford at his age, and sending White to the bench isn't something they're going to want to do.

If Jb is still the head coach and that is the 1/8 matchup i have the Celtics in a sweep or maybe the Cavs pull out one game. The talent disparity is unreal and every single one of their starting 5 are 2 way players, I'm not sure you could call a single Cavs player a 2 way player, maybe Porter Jr and he can't shoot plus is currently ineligible for the post season.

The only shot the Cavs would have in that 1/8 hypothetical series is several of the Celtics starters getting hurt/suspended or maybe a slightly better shot if anyone not named Jb is the coach.

Not sure where you see the matchup advantages coming from but I'm looking at two guys starting in the back court who are All-Defense and a 3rd guy who is borderline that, plus a 7'3" shot blocker... Who all 5 can shoot to spread out our defense, no thanks i want no parts of that.

We just lost a close game to the Celtics without Mobley and have shown fight last season against a semi-similar roster. I am not saying we would win a series against them, but I'd hope the Cavs could give them a fight.

I think the Celtics are the better team and potentially better constructed (I worry mostly about their depth which same could be said for the Cavs), but I still think it'd be competitive

If we want to lament on the disappointing Knicks loss, I can see convincing yourself that this Cavs roster is swept by a more dominant Celtics team

P.S. Look at Celtics play calling and find the difference between the Celtics and the Cavs. I did it last night and believe it to be even more PNR heavy and especially more ISO heavy. I think our defensive gameplan worked fairly well. Cavs doubled and showed defenders in the driving lane and players did their job in helping and recovering to three point shooters

JujitsuFlip wrote:

ijspeelman wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:If Jb is still the head coach and that is the 1/8 matchup i have the Celtics in a sweep or maybe the Cavs pull out one game. The talent disparity is unreal and every single one of their starting 5 are 2 way players, I'm not sure you could call a single Cavs player a 2 way player, maybe Porter Jr and he can't shoot plus is currently ineligible for the post season.

The only shot the Cavs would have in that 1/8 hypothetical series is several of the Celtics starters getting hurt/suspended or maybe a slightly better shot if anyone not named Jb is the coach.

Not sure where you see the matchup advantages coming from but I'm looking at two guys starting in the back court who are All-Defense and a 3rd guy who is borderline that, plus a 7'3" shot blocker... Who all 5 can shoot to spread out our defense, no thanks i want no parts of that.

We just lost a close game to the Celtics without Mobley and have shown fight last season against a semi-similar roster. I am not saying we would win a series against them, but I'd hope the Cavs could give them a fight.

I think the Celtics are the better team and potentially better constructed (I worry mostly about their depth which same could be said for the Cavs), but I still think it'd be competitive

If we want to lament on the disappointing Knicks loss, I can see convincing yourself that this Cavs roster is swept by a more dominant Celtics team

P.S. Look at Celtics play calling and find the difference between the Celtics and the Cavs. I did it last night and believe it to be even more PNR heavy and especially more ISO heavy. I think our defensive gameplan worked fairly well. Cavs doubled and showed defenders in the driving lane and players did their job in helping and recovering to three point shooters

Idk how similar their last season's roster is to this season's. KP wasn't there, Jrue wasn't there, and White was mostly a starter but not full time.

jbk1234 wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

ijspeelman wrote:
We just lost a close game to the Celtics without Mobley and have shown fight last season against a semi-similar roster. I am not saying we would win a series against them, but I'd hope the Cavs could give them a fight.

I think the Celtics are the better team and potentially better constructed (I worry mostly about their depth which same could be said for the Cavs), but I still think it'd be competitive

If we want to lament on the disappointing Knicks loss, I can see convincing yourself that this Cavs roster is swept by a more dominant Celtics team

P.S. Look at Celtics play calling and find the difference between the Celtics and the Cavs. I did it last night and believe it to be even more PNR heavy and especially more ISO heavy. I think our defensive gameplan worked fairly well. Cavs doubled and showed defenders in the driving lane and players did their job in helping and recovering to three point shooters

Idk how similar their last season's roster is to this season's. KP wasn't there, Jrue wasn't there, and White was mostly a starter but not full time.

Smart's gone, Brogdon's gone, G. Williams is gone, R. Williams is gone, and Horford is a year older. As we learned against the Knicks, your starters can win their minutes and you can still lose the series.

JonFromVA wrote:Maybe it's playing in Boston and missing Evan, but I haven't been so miffed about the free-throw disparity until this game where it just felt like the Celtics only had to drive in to the man defending them to get a free trip to the line. 26 attempts for Boston to just 9 for us.

Not to mention during the LeBron years we kept getting told he was too big & strong to get calls, but now our team is built around guys who get knocked in to the stands by a little contact and we still don't get a ton of calls.

I'm not sure what the answer is this week to consistently get the refs to blow their whistle for us, but we might consider looking to add someone who can draw fouls consistently and adding tactics to raise how much our guys do draw.

I mean even with the NBA clamping down on some of his tactics Trae Young is still finding ways to draw nearly as many fouls as he did before ... and everyone on our team is bigger than him.

Is JBB's mouth a factor? It's not clear it's helping.

jbk1234 wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

ijspeelman wrote:
We just lost a close game to the Celtics without Mobley and have shown fight last season against a semi-similar roster. I am not saying we would win a series against them, but I'd hope the Cavs could give them a fight.

I think the Celtics are the better team and potentially better constructed (I worry mostly about their depth which same could be said for the Cavs), but I still think it'd be competitive

If we want to lament on the disappointing Knicks loss, I can see convincing yourself that this Cavs roster is swept by a more dominant Celtics team

P.S. Look at Celtics play calling and find the difference between the Celtics and the Cavs. I did it last night and believe it to be even more PNR heavy and especially more ISO heavy. I think our defensive gameplan worked fairly well. Cavs doubled and showed defenders in the driving lane and players did their job in helping and recovering to three point shooters

Idk how similar their last season's roster is to this season's. KP wasn't there, Jrue wasn't there, and White was mostly a starter but not full time.

Smart's gone, Brogdon's gone, G. Williams is gone, R. Williams is gone, and Horford is a year older. As we learned against the Knicks, your starters can win their minutes and you can still lose the series.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Maybe it's playing in Boston and missing Evan, but I haven't been so miffed about the free-throw disparity until this game where it just felt like the Celtics only had to drive in to the man defending them to get a free trip to the line. 26 attempts for Boston to just 9 for us.

Not to mention during the LeBron years we kept getting told he was too big & strong to get calls, but now our team is built around guys who get knocked in to the stands by a little contact and we still don't get a ton of calls.

I'm not sure what the answer is this week to consistently get the refs to blow their whistle for us, but we might consider looking to add someone who can draw fouls consistently and adding tactics to raise how much our guys do draw.

I mean even with the NBA clamping down on some of his tactics Trae Young is still finding ways to draw nearly as many fouls as he did before ... and everyone on our team is bigger than him.

Is JBB's mouth a factor? It's not clear it's helping.

I don't mind that we're not getting fouls called. I do mind that we're not allowed to play perfectly legal defense. The Cavs are a good defensive team. Rewarding the opposition with unearned free throws negates that advantage and fundamentally alters the game. It doesn't help that JBB's response, every single time, is to surrender the corner three. That allows the officiating crews to avoid accountability.

Let Allen, Mobley, Wade, Strus, etc. foul out in the third quarter for multiple games. Send the tapes in. On the second night of a back-to-back against good teams, pull the starters, and insert the third string for the rest of the game. See how the league likes that.

None of this is possible with JBB coaching for his job though, and the front office has to decide how long JBB coaching for his job is sustainable.

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:Maybe it's playing in Boston and missing Evan, but I haven't been so miffed about the free-throw disparity until this game where it just felt like the Celtics only had to drive in to the man defending them to get a free trip to the line. 26 attempts for Boston to just 9 for us.

Not to mention during the LeBron years we kept getting told he was too big & strong to get calls, but now our team is built around guys who get knocked in to the stands by a little contact and we still don't get a ton of calls.

I'm not sure what the answer is this week to consistently get the refs to blow their whistle for us, but we might consider looking to add someone who can draw fouls consistently and adding tactics to raise how much our guys do draw.

I mean even with the NBA clamping down on some of his tactics Trae Young is still finding ways to draw nearly as many fouls as he did before ... and everyone on our team is bigger than him.

Is JBB's mouth a factor? It's not clear it's helping.

I don't mind that we're not getting fouls called. I do mind that we're not allowed to play perfectly legal defense. The Cavs are a good defensive team. Rewarding the opposition with unearned free throws negates that advantage and fundamentally alters the game. It doesn't help that JBB's response, every single time, is to surrender the corner three. That allows the officiating crews to avoid accountability.

Let Allen, Mobley, Wade, Strus, etc. foul out in the third quarter for multiple games. Send the tapes in. On the second night of a back-to-back against good teams, pull the starters, and insert the third string for the rest of the game. See how the league likes that.

None of this is possible with JBB coaching for his job though, and the front office has to decide how long JBB coaching for his job is sustainable.

I just don't think playing the victim card is productive. We need to be just as aggressive and try to take advantage of however the refs happen to be blowing the whistle on any given night.

I'm fine with forcing the issue, but I wouldn't necessarily do it the way you're suggesting. I'd rather see them try to correct the problem in the game, but our coaches/vets would need to have better ideas than throwing their hands in the air and cursing the refs.

There are ways to manipulate the refs and/or try to discourage the other team from playing a certain way you don't appreciate, and if you know you're going to get a foul called on you, it's old school to make sure you get your money's worth.

Maybe we need to bring back Delly for a retirement tour, but the way he'd just annoy the **** out of opponents until they retaliated and got tossed is just the kind of subterfuge I'm talking about. Even Andy throwing his hair in opponent's faces was a sort of deterrent.

jbk1234 wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
I don't mind that we're not getting fouls called. I do mind that we're not allowed to play perfectly legal defense. The Cavs are a good defensive team. Rewarding the opposition with unearned free throws negates that advantage and fundamentally alters the game. It doesn't help that JBB's response, every single time, is to surrender the corner three. That allows the officiating crews to avoid accountability.

Let Allen, Mobley, Wade, Strus, etc. foul out in the third quarter for multiple games. Send the tapes in. On the second night of a back-to-back against good teams, pull the starters, and insert the third string for the rest of the game. See how the league likes that.

None of this is possible with JBB coaching for his job though, and the front office has to decide how long JBB coaching for his job is sustainable.

I just don't think playing the victim card is productive. We need to be just as aggressive and try to take advantage of however the refs happen to be blowing the whistle on any given night.

I'm fine with forcing the issue, but I wouldn't necessarily do it the way you're suggesting. I'd rather see them try to correct the problem in the game, but our coaches/vets would need to have better ideas than throwing their hands in the air and cursing the refs.

There are ways to manipulate the refs and/or try to discourage the other team from playing a certain way you don't appreciate, and if you know you're going to get a foul called on you, it's old school to make sure you get your money's worth.

Maybe we need to bring back Delly for a retirement tour, but the way he'd just annoy the **** out of opponents until they retaliated and got tossed is just the kind of subterfuge I'm talking about. Even Andy throwing his hair in opponent's faces was a sort of deterrent.

Being able to defend the paint without fouling is the key advantage the Cavs have based on how they're constructed. If the other team can negate that advantage by jumping into Allen and/or Mobley, then foul baiting yourself doesn't get you to even. Your advantage is still surrendered. The other team doesn't have that advantage anyway.

I'd press the point because if the league is just going to abandon the 2021 rule changes it put in place, make them say so. Maybe we do trade Allen or Mobley if that's the case. Maybe the league tells the officiating crews that the rule change was indeed official and to knock it off.