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Congrats to Cav Isaiah Hartenstein on his NBA championship

Time for us to get another one. A decade removed, yeah it's time.

JujitsuFlip wrote:Time for us to get another one. A decade removed, yeah it's time.

Weird things happen (like champs getting fat and happy, injuries, and refs changing how they call games), but this might just had been the last/best chance to beat the Thunder for a while.

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:Time for us to get another one. A decade removed, yeah it's time.

Weird things happen (like champs getting fat and happy, injuries, and refs changing how they call games), but this might just had been the last/best chance to beat the Thunder for a while.

It helps to have two of your big three still on rookie contracts. J. Williams is a no brainer, but they've got a decision to make on Chet.

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:Time for us to get another one. A decade removed, yeah it's time.

Weird things happen (like champs getting fat and happy, injuries, and refs changing how they call games), but this might just had been the last/best chance to beat the Thunder for a while.

I personally do not believe we coulda beat them 4 of 7 times even if we made it outta the East. Just gotta hope the Cavs can stay healthy for 1 run.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:Time for us to get another one. A decade removed, yeah it's time.

Weird things happen (like champs getting fat and happy, injuries, and refs changing how they call games), but this might just had been the last/best chance to beat the Thunder for a while.

I personally do not believe we coulda beat them 4 of 7 times even if we made it outta the East. Just gotta hope the Cavs can stay healthy for 1 run.

I think a healthy squad would be within shooting variance of winning or losing. A big issue is we haven't seen much of healthy Darius Garland in the playoffs, and Mitchell is always nursing something-or-other-- maybe he tears an Achilles if he goes four series. Whether we can arrive healthy at the end of the playoffs is the big question after four years of injuries derailing us.

toooskies wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
Weird things happen (like champs getting fat and happy, injuries, and refs changing how they call games), but this might just had been the last/best chance to beat the Thunder for a while.

I personally do not believe we coulda beat them 4 of 7 times even if we made it outta the East. Just gotta hope the Cavs can stay healthy for 1 run.

I think a healthy squad would be within shooting variance of winning or losing. A big issue is we haven't seen much of healthy Darius Garland in the playoffs, and Mitchell is always nursing something-or-other-- maybe he tears an Achilles if he goes four series. Whether we can arrive healthy at the end of the playoffs is the big question after four years of injuries derailing us.

Yeah, I'm not overly optimistic.

I also am back to not caring what our regular season record is, as long as we're top 6. Losing all 3 home games at home in round 2 was a tough pill to swallow. I know we were nowhere near healthy but still.

I'm glad the front office wants to give it one more try but if it ends in injury again, i truly would look to shake-up the core 4 massively.

2025-26 is Finals or bust in my book.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

toooskies wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:I personally do not believe we coulda beat them 4 of 7 times even if we made it outta the East. Just gotta hope the Cavs can stay healthy for 1 run.

I think a healthy squad would be within shooting variance of winning or losing. A big issue is we haven't seen much of healthy Darius Garland in the playoffs, and Mitchell is always nursing something-or-other-- maybe he tears an Achilles if he goes four series. Whether we can arrive healthy at the end of the playoffs is the big question after four years of injuries derailing us.

Yeah, I'm not overly optimistic.

I also am back to not caring what our regular season record is, as long as we're top 6. Losing all 3 home games at home in round 2 was a tough pill to swallow. I know we were nowhere near healthy but still.

I'm glad the front office wants to give it one more try but if it ends in injury again, i truly would look to shake-up the core 4 massively.

2025-26 is Finals or bust in my book.

I don't think it can be that black and white for 2026 champions or bust. A lot of different avenues to go in afterwards even with the messy future cap

I will say tho that w the Celtics and Pacers severely hampered this is the Cavs year to take advantage of.

ijspeelman wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

toooskies wrote:I think a healthy squad would be within shooting variance of winning or losing. A big issue is we haven't seen much of healthy Darius Garland in the playoffs, and Mitchell is always nursing something-or-other-- maybe he tears an Achilles if he goes four series. Whether we can arrive healthy at the end of the playoffs is the big question after four years of injuries derailing us.

Yeah, I'm not overly optimistic.

I also am back to not caring what our regular season record is, as long as we're top 6. Losing all 3 home games at home in round 2 was a tough pill to swallow. I know we were nowhere near healthy but still.

I'm glad the front office wants to give it one more try but if it ends in injury again, i truly would look to shake-up the core 4 massively.

2025-26 is Finals or bust in my book.

I don't think it can be that black and white for 2026 champions or bust. A lot of different avenues to go in afterwards even with the messy future cap

I will say tho that w the Celtics and Pacers severely hampered this is the Cavs year to take advantage of.

I'm not saying championship or bust, I'm saying Finals or bust. Cavs have to at minimum prove they can get outta the East in 2026. Anything less is a failure.

This core has been together for far too many post seasons to accept anymore consolation prizes.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

ijspeelman wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:Yeah, I'm not overly optimistic.

I also am back to not caring what our regular season record is, as long as we're top 6. Losing all 3 home games at home in round 2 was a tough pill to swallow. I know we were nowhere near healthy but still.

I'm glad the front office wants to give it one more try but if it ends in injury again, i truly would look to shake-up the core 4 massively.

2025-26 is Finals or bust in my book.

I don't think it can be that black and white for 2026 champions or bust. A lot of different avenues to go in afterwards even with the messy future cap

I will say tho that w the Celtics and Pacers severely hampered this is the Cavs year to take advantage of.

I'm not saying championship or bust, I'm saying Finals or bust. Cavs have to at minimum prove they can get outta the East in 2026. Anything less is a failure.

This core has been together for far too many post seasons to accept anymore consolation prizes.

*shrugs* They're still young and just wrapped up one of if not the most enjoyable regular season in the history of the franchise. I personally wouldn't trade a core player just to shuffle the deck chairs or buy a lottery ticket.

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

ijspeelman wrote:
I don't think it can be that black and white for 2026 champions or bust. A lot of different avenues to go in afterwards even with the messy future cap

I will say tho that w the Celtics and Pacers severely hampered this is the Cavs year to take advantage of.

I'm not saying championship or bust, I'm saying Finals or bust. Cavs have to at minimum prove they can get outta the East in 2026. Anything less is a failure.

This core has been together for far too many post seasons to accept anymore consolation prizes.

*shrugs* They're still young and just wrapped up one of if not the most enjoyable regular season in the history of the franchise. I personally wouldn't trade a core player just to shuffle the deck chairs or buy a lottery ticket.

If they fail for a 5th time in a row, you have to.

No one wants to be a 2nd apron team and on the treadmill. Teams get broken up for much less. At that point, they will have been given more than enough leash.

Give it 1 more go and if they can't clear the East, we're obviously keeping Kenny, so the next move is new pieces.

Also, idk if we can call the Cavs young anymore.

Mobley and Garland are young.

Mitchell is about to be 29.
Strus is 29.
Allen is 27
Wade is about to be 29.
Hunter is about to be 28.

This isn't the 2022 Cavs anymore lol and by next summer they will be one year older. I am standing by 2025-26 must at least end in a Finals appearance or the core needs to be broken up.

JujitsuFlip wrote:Also, idk if we can call the Cavs young anymore.

Mobley and Garland are young.

Mitchell is about to be 29.
Strus is 29.
Allen is 27
Wade is about to be 29.
Hunter is about to be 28.

This isn't the 2022 Cavs anymore lol and by next summer they will be one year older. I am standing by 2025-26 must at least end in a Finals appearance or the core needs to be broken up.

I know you believe the team's timeline was reset when we traded for Mitchell, but IMO that's not the case. We're still pinned to Mobley and Garland and we can easily go another 3+ seasons with them even with the guys around them hitting their early 30's.

Ultimately it's up to Dan if he wants to continue paying the tax on the team to keep getting another crack, but he hasn't even paid it one season yet and we can always trim salary around the fringes if necessary.

Both Giannis and Jokic went 7 seasons without a championship before finally cashing in all of one time. Milwaukee may have to trade Giannis now because their moves to build around him flopped.

We're only hoping Mobley might still develop in to that level of player.

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:Also, idk if we can call the Cavs young anymore.

Mobley and Garland are young.

Mitchell is about to be 29.
Strus is 29.
Allen is 27
Wade is about to be 29.
Hunter is about to be 28.

This isn't the 2022 Cavs anymore lol and by next summer they will be one year older. I am standing by 2025-26 must at least end in a Finals appearance or the core needs to be broken up.

I know you believe the team's timeline was reset when we traded for Mitchell, but IMO that's not the case. We're still pinned to Mobley and Garland and we can easily go another 3+ seasons with them even with the guys around them hitting their early 30's.

Ultimately it's up to Dan if he wants to continue paying the tax on the team to keep getting another crack, but he hasn't even paid it one season yet and we can always trim salary around the fringes if necessary.

Both Giannis and Jokic went 7 seasons without a championship before finally cashing in all of one time. Milwaukee may have to trade Giannis now because their moves to build around him flopped.

We're only hoping Mobley might still develop in to that level of player.

We can not go 3 more years with the ceiling being the 2nd round, there's no chance that is acceptable. Kenny will get canned for sure.

Giannis isn't a good example... Yes he won in his 8th NBA season but what happened that season? They acquired their starting PG Jrue to replace their other starting PG Bledsoe who couldn't get it done, in the same trade they moved their back up PG Hill too. What else did they do? Acquired their starting F Tucker for another reserve guard in Augustine and a reserve F Wilson who could not find consistent minutes.

So let's not pretend like the Bucks just had a core struggling together for 7 seasons and they just magically figured it out one day and won a title. No, they had to move some deck chairs around to get over the hump.

Again, yes Jokic won in his 8th NBA season but what happened? They traded for their starting SG KCP for their back up PG Morris and often injured starting wing Barton. MPJ got healthy which allowed him to start and bump uncle Jeff Green to come off the bench. They signed their backup C DJ (even though he played sparingly). Acquired their back-up PG Jackson off the buyout market (even though he played sparingly). They drafted Braun who was wing depth. Signed their 6th man Brown.

If anything, i feel like your 2 examples of MVP players finally getting over the hump was solely because they switched up pieces and didn't just stand pat. Plus the Cavs do not have a multiple time MVP on their roster either, so there's that, for comparison sake.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:Also, idk if we can call the Cavs young anymore.

Mobley and Garland are young.

Mitchell is about to be 29.
Strus is 29.
Allen is 27
Wade is about to be 29.
Hunter is about to be 28.

This isn't the 2022 Cavs anymore lol and by next summer they will be one year older. I am standing by 2025-26 must at least end in a Finals appearance or the core needs to be broken up.

I know you believe the team's timeline was reset when we traded for Mitchell, but IMO that's not the case. We're still pinned to Mobley and Garland and we can easily go another 3+ seasons with them even with the guys around them hitting their early 30's.

Ultimately it's up to Dan if he wants to continue paying the tax on the team to keep getting another crack, but he hasn't even paid it one season yet and we can always trim salary around the fringes if necessary.

Both Giannis and Jokic went 7 seasons without a championship before finally cashing in all of one time. Milwaukee may have to trade Giannis now because their moves to build around him flopped.

We're only hoping Mobley might still develop in to that level of player.

We can not go 3 more years with the ceiling being the 2nd round, there's no chance that is acceptable. Kenny will get canned for sure.

Giannis isn't a good example... Yes he won in his 8th NBA season but what happened that season? They acquired their starting PG Jrue to replace their other starting PG Bledsoe who couldn't get it done, in the same trade they moved their back up PG Hill too. What else did they do? Acquired their starting F Tucker for another reserve guard in Augustine and a reserve F Wilson who could not find consistent minutes.

So let's not pretend like the Bucks just had a core struggling together for 7 seasons and they just magically figured it out one day and won a title. No, they had to move some deck chairs around to get over the hump.

Again, yes Jokic won in his 8th NBA season but what happened? They traded for their starting SG KCP for their back up PG Morris and often injured starting wing Barton. MPJ got healthy which allowed him to start and bump uncle Jeff Green to come off the bench. They signed their backup C DJ (even though he played sparingly). Acquired their back-up PG Jackson off the buyout market (even though he played sparingly). They drafted Braun who was wing depth. Signed their 6th man Brown.

If anything, i feel like your 2 examples of MVP players finally getting over the hump was solely because they switched up pieces and didn't just stand pat. Plus the Cavs do not have a multiple time MVP on their roster either, so there's that, for comparison sake.

Good points, but those players still had to get where got AND have things fall in to place around them. A healthy Garland for instance would be a lot better option than whatever Jrue Holiday might contribute at 35/36 years old for us.

There's an element of luck and right time and right place that is out of everyone's control. I'm fine if that perfect confluence of events that led to us winning in 2016 doesn't repeat for this group as long as the team is fun to watch and there's hope.

So by all means keep the smart/opportunistic trades like getting Hunter for expiring LeVert, Niang, and some picks/rights of little import; and avoid the idiot crap the fans and media are tossing around like dumping Garland and/or Allen because they can't tell the difference between injuries and team construction.

And yes, I realize the 2nd Apron will cut in to our trade options, but there's always ways to be clever in the margins or just be patient and find the right big deal.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:Also, idk if we can call the Cavs young anymore.

Mobley and Garland are young.

Mitchell is about to be 29.
Strus is 29.
Allen is 27
Wade is about to be 29.
Hunter is about to be 28.

This isn't the 2022 Cavs anymore lol and by next summer they will be one year older. I am standing by 2025-26 must at least end in a Finals appearance or the core needs to be broken up.

I know you believe the team's timeline was reset when we traded for Mitchell, but IMO that's not the case. We're still pinned to Mobley and Garland and we can easily go another 3+ seasons with them even with the guys around them hitting their early 30's.

Ultimately it's up to Dan if he wants to continue paying the tax on the team to keep getting another crack, but he hasn't even paid it one season yet and we can always trim salary around the fringes if necessary.

Both Giannis and Jokic went 7 seasons without a championship before finally cashing in all of one time. Milwaukee may have to trade Giannis now because their moves to build around him flopped.

We're only hoping Mobley might still develop in to that level of player.

We can not go 3 more years with the ceiling being the 2nd round, there's no chance that is acceptable. Kenny will get canned for sure.

Giannis isn't a good example... Yes he won in his 8th NBA season but what happened that season? They acquired their starting PG Jrue to replace their other starting PG Bledsoe who couldn't get it done, in the same trade they moved their back up PG Hill too. What else did they do? Acquired their starting F Tucker for another reserve guard in Augustine and a reserve F Wilson who could not find consistent minutes.

So let's not pretend like the Bucks just had a core struggling together for 7 seasons and they just magically figured it out one day and won a title. No, they had to move some deck chairs around to get over the hump.

Again, yes Jokic won in his 8th NBA season but what happened? They traded for their starting SG KCP for their back up PG Morris and often injured starting wing Barton. MPJ got healthy which allowed him to start and bump uncle Jeff Green to come off the bench. They signed their backup C DJ (even though he played sparingly). Acquired their back-up PG Jackson off the buyout market (even though he played sparingly). They drafted Braun who was wing depth. Signed their 6th man Brown.

If anything, i feel like your 2 examples of MVP players finally getting over the hump was solely because they switched up pieces and didn't just stand pat. Plus the Cavs do not have a multiple time MVP on their roster either, so there's that, for comparison sake.

I don't think you look at OKC and Indiana in this year's playoffs and assume that you need to depend on massive external changes to improve. Both teams pretty much kept identical rosters coming into this year (OKC turned Giddey and cap space into Caruso and Hartenstein), and Indiana was an Achilles tear away from possibly winning the title without an MVP candidate.

I don't know which low-cost defenders might be as impactful as a Caruso add-- maybe Herb Jones? Keon Ellis? Toumani Camara? Can we get Derrick White for Garland? Is that meaningfully better than just giving Wade and/or Okoro prime minutes and hoping they develop more?

toooskies wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
I know you believe the team's timeline was reset when we traded for Mitchell, but IMO that's not the case. We're still pinned to Mobley and Garland and we can easily go another 3+ seasons with them even with the guys around them hitting their early 30's.

Ultimately it's up to Dan if he wants to continue paying the tax on the team to keep getting another crack, but he hasn't even paid it one season yet and we can always trim salary around the fringes if necessary.

Both Giannis and Jokic went 7 seasons without a championship before finally cashing in all of one time. Milwaukee may have to trade Giannis now because their moves to build around him flopped.

We're only hoping Mobley might still develop in to that level of player.

We can not go 3 more years with the ceiling being the 2nd round, there's no chance that is acceptable. Kenny will get canned for sure.

Giannis isn't a good example... Yes he won in his 8th NBA season but what happened that season? They acquired their starting PG Jrue to replace their other starting PG Bledsoe who couldn't get it done, in the same trade they moved their back up PG Hill too. What else did they do? Acquired their starting F Tucker for another reserve guard in Augustine and a reserve F Wilson who could not find consistent minutes.

So let's not pretend like the Bucks just had a core struggling together for 7 seasons and they just magically figured it out one day and won a title. No, they had to move some deck chairs around to get over the hump.

Again, yes Jokic won in his 8th NBA season but what happened? They traded for their starting SG KCP for their back up PG Morris and often injured starting wing Barton. MPJ got healthy which allowed him to start and bump uncle Jeff Green to come off the bench. They signed their backup C DJ (even though he played sparingly). Acquired their back-up PG Jackson off the buyout market (even though he played sparingly). They drafted Braun who was wing depth. Signed their 6th man Brown.

If anything, i feel like your 2 examples of MVP players finally getting over the hump was solely because they switched up pieces and didn't just stand pat. Plus the Cavs do not have a multiple time MVP on their roster either, so there's that, for comparison sake.

I don't think you look at OKC and Indiana in this year's playoffs and assume that you need to depend on massive external changes to improve. Both teams pretty much kept identical rosters coming into this year (OKC turned Giddey and cap space into Caruso and Hartenstein), and Indiana was an Achilles tear away from possibly winning the title without an MVP candidate.

I don't know which low-cost defenders might be as impactful as a Caruso add-- maybe Herb Jones? Keon Ellis? Toumani Camara? Can we get Derrick White for Garland? Is that meaningfully better than just giving Wade and/or Okoro prime minutes and hoping they develop more?

I am all way out on Okoro ever figuring it out.

Pacers went to the ECF last season though, it was not some long struggle they went through. Cavs are entering year 5 of mostly this core.

But look how the Pacers were built.

Hali - traded for
Siakam - traded for
Nesmith - traded for
Toppin - traded for
Bryant - traded for

5 of their 10 man rotation was acquired via trade

And because i know jbk loves it, just gotta mention Sheppard drafted with the Cavs 1st rounder and Nembhard drafted with the Cavs 2nd rounder.

As far as the Thunder, Hartenstien is their starting center and Caruso is their 6th man, those additions cannot be understated.

JonFromVA wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:
I know you believe the team's timeline was reset when we traded for Mitchell, but IMO that's not the case. We're still pinned to Mobley and Garland and we can easily go another 3+ seasons with them even with the guys around them hitting their early 30's.

Ultimately it's up to Dan if he wants to continue paying the tax on the team to keep getting another crack, but he hasn't even paid it one season yet and we can always trim salary around the fringes if necessary.

Both Giannis and Jokic went 7 seasons without a championship before finally cashing in all of one time. Milwaukee may have to trade Giannis now because their moves to build around him flopped.

We're only hoping Mobley might still develop in to that level of player.

We can not go 3 more years with the ceiling being the 2nd round, there's no chance that is acceptable. Kenny will get canned for sure.

Giannis isn't a good example... Yes he won in his 8th NBA season but what happened that season? They acquired their starting PG Jrue to replace their other starting PG Bledsoe who couldn't get it done, in the same trade they moved their back up PG Hill too. What else did they do? Acquired their starting F Tucker for another reserve guard in Augustine and a reserve F Wilson who could not find consistent minutes.

So let's not pretend like the Bucks just had a core struggling together for 7 seasons and they just magically figured it out one day and won a title. No, they had to move some deck chairs around to get over the hump.

Again, yes Jokic won in his 8th NBA season but what happened? They traded for their starting SG KCP for their back up PG Morris and often injured starting wing Barton. MPJ got healthy which allowed him to start and bump uncle Jeff Green to come off the bench. They signed their backup C DJ (even though he played sparingly). Acquired their back-up PG Jackson off the buyout market (even though he played sparingly). They drafted Braun who was wing depth. Signed their 6th man Brown.

If anything, i feel like your 2 examples of MVP players finally getting over the hump was solely because they switched up pieces and didn't just stand pat. Plus the Cavs do not have a multiple time MVP on their roster either, so there's that, for comparison sake.

Good points, but those players still had to get where got AND have things fall in to place around them. A healthy Garland for instance would be a lot better option than whatever Jrue Holiday might contribute at 35/36 years old for us.

There's an element of luck and right time and right place that is out of everyone's control. I'm fine if that perfect confluence of events that led to us winning in 2016 doesn't repeat for this group as long as the team is fun to watch and there's hope.

So by all means keep the smart/opportunistic trades like getting Hunter for expiring LeVert, Niang, and some picks/rights of little import; and avoid the idiot crap the fans and media are tossing around like dumping Garland and/or Allen because they can't tell the difference between injuries and team construction.

And yes, I realize the 2nd Apron will cut in to our trade options, but there's always ways to be clever in the margins or just be patient and find the right big deal.

Yeah, I'm good on Garland for Jrue or Mitchell for LeBron, or even Mobley for Giannis. Everybody just wants us to become the Cleveland nursing home.

But i don't want to be a 2nd round treadmill team. I am a Bengals fan, unlike most of you. I watched the Bengals lose in the wildcard round 5 years in a row and 6 times in 7 years. It is the worst possible spot to be as a sports team. Essentially always the bridesmaid, never the bride. I'd rather be complete garbage or all way in, the in between sucks.

Any thoughts on Dean Wade? I've seen rumbles of trying to trade him, but he's so cheap for what he brings, that unless he gets injured, still feels like someone I'd want on the end of the bench.

Chip wrote:Any thoughts on Dean Wade? I've seen rumbles of trying to trade him, but he's so cheap for what he brings, that unless he gets injured, still feels like someone I'd want on the end of the bench.

He's cool for what he is. If him and Hunter could stay healthy and start, they'd mesh perfectly with Mobley and Mitchell. Then Garland and Allen would be more expendable.

But both guys stay hurt and this is probably Wade's final season in wine and gold.