I know that it has only been two games. I know that we have had 3 main players out for both of those two games. I know that it may take a little while to get some chemistry.
That being said - Are we blinding ourselves with the hope that this will fix things for us and give us a legit shot at the title this year?
Ben Wallace has done some good things in his two games. But I have also watched him play out of position numerous times, let opposing players run up the middle for slams, get out-hustled by opposing players for rebounds and not make it past half court before a play was completed on offense.
Wally has shot poorly and has made some really dumb turnovers.
West has put up some decent numbers, but his shooting also sucks and he isn't doing much on defense, and has made dumb turnovers that have nothing to do with chemistry..IE: traveling calls X2 yesterday.
Joe Smith has been the only consistent player so far, and even he has made some mistakes, though I do attribute his to chemistry.
Veteran players don't need their hands held to play defense. It isn't like football where the defensive assignments are complicated. Mike Brown runs a very basic help-defense scheme that involves switches. All 4 new players should have the basics down already, and Wallace and Delonte should be able to cover-up any mistakes with their athletic ability. Yeah..Wallace is older...But he ran a 4.7 40 yard dash while visiting the Chicago Bears preseason workouts. He was also a 4-sport athlete in-case some of you didn't know. He ran track, played baseball,basketball and football.
Wally is too slow laterally to be worth a damn one-on-one defensively, but Zydrunas is slower than Wally and he has no problems switching. Wally is a former all-star and has been in the league for 10 years. He should have the basic concepts down-pat
So... are we blinding ourselves? Are we expecting (hoping) for too much?
On paper, this team has a line-up for every situation...on-paper. But if the players can't do their part, then we are just another team that will make an exit in the first or second round.
Against Memphis we built a 28 point lead....then MEMPHIS out-played us the rest of the way!
Against Milwaukee we played incredibly placid... as if all we had to do was show-up and get the victory.
If we get beat by 10 points or more tonight, then I will start re-evaluating my enthusiasm and expectation. We lost to Boston, IN Boston, WITHOUT LeBron and 3 others by only 10 points...Against a Boston team that was 100%. If we can't do better than that tonight, then I'm not so sure this trade was as good as it first appeared to be.
I hope I am wrong.
Are we being blinded by hope?
Moderator: ijspeelman
Are we being blinded by hope?
-
heathmalc
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,083
- And1: 16
- Joined: Jul 13, 2007
- Location: Skr Hts.
-
Icness
- NFL Analyst
- Posts: 16,964
- And1: 129
- Joined: Apr 30, 2001
- Location: Back in the 616
- Contact:
-
I'm one of the few that thought the pre-trade Cavs had a real shot to win the East. And I think the move made the team better overall, though far from a cinch to win. Heck, I'm 35 and a lifelong fan of the Indians, Cavaliers, and the Browns are my #2 football fandom--and I've never tasted a title. Forgive me for being overly optimistic about what I believe is the best chance outside of the 97 Indians for a title in my life. I refuse to believe this team cannot do it!
It's not whether you win or lose, it's how good you look playing the game
Re: Are we being blinded by hope?
-
Smooth32
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 5,273
- And1: 4
- Joined: Aug 15, 2005
Re: Are we being blinded by hope?
heathmalc wrote:But I have also watched him play out of position numerous times,
How many days has he been with the team? Yeah...
heathmalc wrote: let opposing players run up the middle for slams
I've seen the exact opposite from him... Players are now almost fearing him when they've gone in the lane... I've seen it several times where a player has been going to the rim and either pulls up for a shot or passes it out because they see Wallace sitting there waiting for him... I mean it's almost like they froze in their tracks when they saw him and they didn't even want to go to the basket anymore...
heathmalc wrote: get out-hustled by opposing players for rebounds and not make it past half court before a play was completed on offense.
Well first of all the guy was playing 12 minutes in the first quarter and I agree I've seen it some times, I can't imagine playing 12 minutes at a time and not getting out hustled...
If he's giving us 10-11 rebounds a night, I'll live with it because that's what he's done so far for us...
heathmalc wrote:Wally has shot poorly and has made some really dumb turnovers.
The turnovers I'm not concerned with because a lot of them have come with a lot of unfamiliarity...
He's shot poorly but his track record proves otherwise, thus I'm not worried... His shots are all coming up short and hitting the rim, which usually means he's tired and with what's gone on the past 3-4 days in his life, I wouldn't really blame him...
heathmalc wrote:West has put up some decent numbers, but his shooting also sucks
I'm not worried because his track record proves otherwise and all his shots seem short, which means a player is usually tired...
heathmalc wrote: and he isn't doing much on defense,
He's been solid but there's no way you can stop a player like Mo Williams when he's on fire... There's just nothing you can possibly do...
heathmalc wrote: and has made dumb turnovers that have nothing to do with chemistry..IE: traveling calls X2 yesterday.
How are they dumb? He was trying to push the ball, turned to quickly, and stumbled because he was off balance... Now explain to me how that's a dumb turnover? It's just misfortune...
heathmalc wrote:So... are we blinding ourselves? Are we expecting (hoping) for too much?
No it's just your already judging the trade 2 freakin' games in...
-
B Mac
- Retired Mod
- Posts: 11,730
- And1: 540
- Joined: Aug 05, 2004
- Location: North Canton, Ohio
- Contact:
-
Heath come on man. Its been 2 freaking games. Wait... 2 games without core rotation guys playing. In the last 2 games Z, AV, Gibson, and Sasha have all been out. How can you judge any team without 4 of their main guys?
It was obvious the Z/Wallace combo was working great. It was also obvious that the Wallace/AV combo didnt work so well (although we all already knew that would happen, plus AV wasnt anywhere close to 100%). Wallace looked great in the first game, the second game was setup for him to not play well without Z, and he still was fine. It takes TIME to see what rotations work.
Wally's shots will fall. He is obviously pressing hard trying to impress, which is good, but not so good at the same time. His track record proves he will bounce back. It's not like he's taking bad shots. It will take TIME for him to find place in the offense.
Delonte has just been handed the reigns to a legit contending team after mostly sitting on the bench in Seattle for 4 months.. it will take him some TIME to knock the rust off.
Joe has played well, but he is also the guy out of the 4 who is most used to switching from team to team. It will take TIME for everyone to get to know his game.
This is a transition period. It takes TIME to build chemistry. Im not sure you understand just how hard this can be, not only for the new guys but for the old guys as well. LeBron said give them a few weeks to get everything ironed out... Thats what Im going to do... not 2 games. LOL Especially not 2 games that we clearly outplayed the other team in.
It was obvious the Z/Wallace combo was working great. It was also obvious that the Wallace/AV combo didnt work so well (although we all already knew that would happen, plus AV wasnt anywhere close to 100%). Wallace looked great in the first game, the second game was setup for him to not play well without Z, and he still was fine. It takes TIME to see what rotations work.
Wally's shots will fall. He is obviously pressing hard trying to impress, which is good, but not so good at the same time. His track record proves he will bounce back. It's not like he's taking bad shots. It will take TIME for him to find place in the offense.
Delonte has just been handed the reigns to a legit contending team after mostly sitting on the bench in Seattle for 4 months.. it will take him some TIME to knock the rust off.
Joe has played well, but he is also the guy out of the 4 who is most used to switching from team to team. It will take TIME for everyone to get to know his game.
This is a transition period. It takes TIME to build chemistry. Im not sure you understand just how hard this can be, not only for the new guys but for the old guys as well. LeBron said give them a few weeks to get everything ironed out... Thats what Im going to do... not 2 games. LOL Especially not 2 games that we clearly outplayed the other team in.
-
celticfan42487
- RealGM
- Posts: 27,428
- And1: 15,279
- Joined: Jul 22, 2005
- Location: Billerica, MA
-
West is a groove shooter offensively. Keep the ball out of his hands, and just have him responsible for taken open shots and in time you'll see his percentages go up.
He just needs to know his role and for his sake make it back-up PG. He sulked not knowing his role in Sea and sucked at shooting in BOS when he didn't know his role. He wants to help but gets discouraged if he's a plays some games at SG then at PG.
He's only 6'1.5" tall with average wingspan and dispite his heart can only make up for so much with his size and average speed so you can see why PG would be the better fit for him.
Honestly he's going to be the steal next to Joe Smith of the trade. But don't judge him till all-star break next year.
Edit: When West was at PG and was just an off-guard shooter for BOS with Pierce creating. He shot 50% for like 12 pppg. So just wait till he is given the consistent role of back-up PG before you judge him. Soon the only reason Boobie will be starting over him is becasue Boobs has PG speed and West simply doesn't.
He just needs to know his role and for his sake make it back-up PG. He sulked not knowing his role in Sea and sucked at shooting in BOS when he didn't know his role. He wants to help but gets discouraged if he's a plays some games at SG then at PG.
He's only 6'1.5" tall with average wingspan and dispite his heart can only make up for so much with his size and average speed so you can see why PG would be the better fit for him.
Honestly he's going to be the steal next to Joe Smith of the trade. But don't judge him till all-star break next year.
Edit: When West was at PG and was just an off-guard shooter for BOS with Pierce creating. He shot 50% for like 12 pppg. So just wait till he is given the consistent role of back-up PG before you judge him. Soon the only reason Boobie will be starting over him is becasue Boobs has PG speed and West simply doesn't.
-
heathmalc
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,083
- And1: 16
- Joined: Jul 13, 2007
- Location: Skr Hts.
I notice everyone keeps saying "time."
Well, the clock is ticking, and we don't have as much time as people seem to think.
We have 20-some games left to get everyone on the same page and playing good together, AND win while we are doing it!
I know it has only been two games. But it was two games against two teams with exactly 4 more combined[ wins than we have - including last night's game!
Think about this how I am - With the exception of the first quarter, we were played even by a Memphis team that is scraps, and didn't even have Miller playing.
The Milwaukee loss wouldn't be nearly as worrisome to me if we had dominated Memphis for the entire game...but we didn't.
And don't use the excuse that Sasha and Boobie and Varejao/Ilgauskas wern't playing, because we have been injured all year and have played Dwayne Jones,etc and still have 32 wins. We played the Wizards...who are injured, but still more talented than Memphis, and we played them with 6 regulars and 2 d-leaguers and still won.
You're gonna tell me that I'm wrong for taking a step back for thinking that Maybe Wallace, Szczerbiak,Smith ,and West should do better than two D-leaguers?
I'm NOT saying this was necessarily a bad trade...but I am saying that perhaps the giddiness of getting a trade done -especially of this magnitude- has perhaps clouded our respective judgment(s).
I'm just saying that perhaps we shouldn't EXPECT the Cavaliers to go all the way this year.
I'm not saying that we don't have a chance...LeBron always gives us a shot. I'm just worried that perhaps I (we) are setting ourselves up to be disappointed.
Well, the clock is ticking, and we don't have as much time as people seem to think.
We have 20-some games left to get everyone on the same page and playing good together, AND win while we are doing it!
I know it has only been two games. But it was two games against two teams with exactly 4 more combined[ wins than we have - including last night's game!
Think about this how I am - With the exception of the first quarter, we were played even by a Memphis team that is scraps, and didn't even have Miller playing.
The Milwaukee loss wouldn't be nearly as worrisome to me if we had dominated Memphis for the entire game...but we didn't.
And don't use the excuse that Sasha and Boobie and Varejao/Ilgauskas wern't playing, because we have been injured all year and have played Dwayne Jones,etc and still have 32 wins. We played the Wizards...who are injured, but still more talented than Memphis, and we played them with 6 regulars and 2 d-leaguers and still won.
You're gonna tell me that I'm wrong for taking a step back for thinking that Maybe Wallace, Szczerbiak,Smith ,and West should do better than two D-leaguers?
I'm NOT saying this was necessarily a bad trade...but I am saying that perhaps the giddiness of getting a trade done -especially of this magnitude- has perhaps clouded our respective judgment(s).
I'm just saying that perhaps we shouldn't EXPECT the Cavaliers to go all the way this year.
I'm not saying that we don't have a chance...LeBron always gives us a shot. I'm just worried that perhaps I (we) are setting ourselves up to be disappointed.
We the People...
-
Smooth32
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 5,273
- And1: 4
- Joined: Aug 15, 2005
The clock is ticking, on what? We're going to make the playoffs, all I care about is the playoffs... I don't care who we face, whether we have home-court advantage, what seed we are, etc... All I want is a playoff team is healthy...
The regular season doesn't really matter, so why are you getting bent all out of shape?
The regular season doesn't really matter, so why are you getting bent all out of shape?
-
heathmalc
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,083
- And1: 16
- Joined: Jul 13, 2007
- Location: Skr Hts.
Mostly because I want to "believe" that we are going to win...I don't want
doubt.
Back in the 80's... I believed with all my being, that the BROWNS were the #1 team in the NFL and would win the Superbowl. I had no doubt.
I want that with these Cavs.
That being said, I agree with you about the regular season. And my biggest hope is for a 100% healthy line-up come playoff time.
doubt.
Back in the 80's... I believed with all my being, that the BROWNS were the #1 team in the NFL and would win the Superbowl. I had no doubt.
I want that with these Cavs.
That being said, I agree with you about the regular season. And my biggest hope is for a 100% healthy line-up come playoff time.
We the People...
-
L&H_05
- RealGM
- Posts: 11,569
- And1: 94
- Joined: Oct 02, 2005
- Location: I love this game !
-
Yeah, Heath is jumping the gun here. At least allow the team to get healthy so they can set some rotations and gel a bit.
Limited practices, no set rotations, and the lack of playing together is going to make for some ugly and inconsistent play for a couple weeks. It's one thing to add a piece, but when you're shuffling in practically a new team, you might want to let some common sense prevail in terms of expectations early on.
Limited practices, no set rotations, and the lack of playing together is going to make for some ugly and inconsistent play for a couple weeks. It's one thing to add a piece, but when you're shuffling in practically a new team, you might want to let some common sense prevail in terms of expectations early on.
Re: Are we being blinded by hope?
-
TheMartian
- General Manager
- Posts: 8,564
- And1: 6,267
- Joined: Oct 13, 2004
-
Re: Are we being blinded by hope?
Smooth32 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-heathmalc wrote:
Wally has shot poorly and has made some really dumb turnovers.
The turnovers I'm not concerned with because a lot of them have come with a lot of unfamiliarity...
He's shot poorly but his track record proves otherwise, thus I'm not worried... His shots are all coming up short and hitting the rim, which usually means he's tired and with what's gone on the past 3-4 days in his life, I wouldn't really blame him...
Coming from a Wolves fan who saw Wally play all those years in Minnesota... trust me when I say Wally's turnovers can be pretty frustrating. I don't think it's because of unfamiliarity. He really is turnover-prone.
-
Damon18Fan
- Banned User
- Posts: 82
- And1: 0
- Joined: Jun 04, 2007
-
heathmalc
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,083
- And1: 16
- Joined: Jul 13, 2007
- Location: Skr Hts.
Okay... this is what I see:
Wallace is doing what we wanted. He is doing more here in less minutes than he did in Chicago. He makes us deeper, and gives us an enforcer.
Delonte West - I feel better after the Boston game. Delonte have the assist total I would have liked to see, but since it was the third game, against a quality opponent and he did well everywhere else, I think he did well overall.
Joe Smith - He only played 15 minutes. Maybe he should be playing a little more? He has been better than everyone except Zydrunas in the front-court.
Wally Szczerbiak - Same thing with him. If he is WIDE-OPEN, he seems to make everything, otherwise he misses. He is playing WAY too many minutes and taking WAY too many shots! His Stupid turnovers continue. Throwing the ball to "nobody" and watching it go out of bounds. I do NOT attribute this to being unfamiliar with the team, I attribute this to Wally trying to do too much! He has "Drew-syndrome" when it comes to him thinking he is a guard that can take people off the dribble and make spectacular pass-plays.
In conclusion -
___________________________________________________________
The Cavaliers need to QUIT giving Wally so many minutes!!! Devin Brown is a better defender, ball-handler, passer, a decent shooter, and KNOWS the team. Wally should be worked-in slowly! He is not our "ANSWER." He can be an excellent "piece" but he should not be playing 30-35 minutes a game! Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a West/Damon back-court. At-least Damon knows the team and doesn't make dumb turnovers or try to do more than he can. That seems to be my biggest problem..Wally shooting too much and shooting at a clip that makes me wish we had Larry! How bad is that? I know Wally's shooting will come around...he really can shoot the ball. But he has been making the same dumb mistakes on offense since college! He gets the ball and thinks he's a pg/sg. He cannot pass the ball worth a damn. I could find about 10,000 clips to support this! Wally should be doing what we did with Damon...and he should SPLIT time with damon, depending on the match-ups. Devin should start until Sasha gets back. At-least when Sasha is shooting bad, we know that he's gonna play good to great defense and he is a threat to drive AND finish anytime he gets the ball. We only had 16 assists last night - THAT is unacceptable!
Lebron played 39 minutes, and that included the time he had to go to the locker-room! LeBron shot horrendously, but I don't mind that because....Well, he's LeBron! What does bother me is that he only had 4 assists and he got the ball to team-mates about 20 times who missed shots... HALF of those (at-least) were to Wally!
I know I jumped the gun yesterday when I started this post...and I am probably still doing it with some stuff... But I expect a LOT more from people that play with LeBron! Wally is one player who I AM NOT jumping the gun on! He ALWAYS makes stupid plays on offense AND defense. What is REALLY frustrating about this, is Wally actually has a high bb IQ!
I will fell 1,000,000 times better when we get Sasha and Daniel back!!!!!!!!!
Okay... I will feel 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times better!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wallace is doing what we wanted. He is doing more here in less minutes than he did in Chicago. He makes us deeper, and gives us an enforcer.
Delonte West - I feel better after the Boston game. Delonte have the assist total I would have liked to see, but since it was the third game, against a quality opponent and he did well everywhere else, I think he did well overall.
Joe Smith - He only played 15 minutes. Maybe he should be playing a little more? He has been better than everyone except Zydrunas in the front-court.
Wally Szczerbiak - Same thing with him. If he is WIDE-OPEN, he seems to make everything, otherwise he misses. He is playing WAY too many minutes and taking WAY too many shots! His Stupid turnovers continue. Throwing the ball to "nobody" and watching it go out of bounds. I do NOT attribute this to being unfamiliar with the team, I attribute this to Wally trying to do too much! He has "Drew-syndrome" when it comes to him thinking he is a guard that can take people off the dribble and make spectacular pass-plays.
In conclusion -
___________________________________________________________
The Cavaliers need to QUIT giving Wally so many minutes!!! Devin Brown is a better defender, ball-handler, passer, a decent shooter, and KNOWS the team. Wally should be worked-in slowly! He is not our "ANSWER." He can be an excellent "piece" but he should not be playing 30-35 minutes a game! Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a West/Damon back-court. At-least Damon knows the team and doesn't make dumb turnovers or try to do more than he can. That seems to be my biggest problem..Wally shooting too much and shooting at a clip that makes me wish we had Larry! How bad is that? I know Wally's shooting will come around...he really can shoot the ball. But he has been making the same dumb mistakes on offense since college! He gets the ball and thinks he's a pg/sg. He cannot pass the ball worth a damn. I could find about 10,000 clips to support this! Wally should be doing what we did with Damon...and he should SPLIT time with damon, depending on the match-ups. Devin should start until Sasha gets back. At-least when Sasha is shooting bad, we know that he's gonna play good to great defense and he is a threat to drive AND finish anytime he gets the ball. We only had 16 assists last night - THAT is unacceptable!
Lebron played 39 minutes, and that included the time he had to go to the locker-room! LeBron shot horrendously, but I don't mind that because....Well, he's LeBron! What does bother me is that he only had 4 assists and he got the ball to team-mates about 20 times who missed shots... HALF of those (at-least) were to Wally!
I know I jumped the gun yesterday when I started this post...and I am probably still doing it with some stuff... But I expect a LOT more from people that play with LeBron! Wally is one player who I AM NOT jumping the gun on! He ALWAYS makes stupid plays on offense AND defense. What is REALLY frustrating about this, is Wally actually has a high bb IQ!
I will fell 1,000,000 times better when we get Sasha and Daniel back!!!!!!!!!
Okay... I will feel 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times better!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
kiwibrindle
- Starter
- Posts: 2,134
- And1: 80
- Joined: Dec 08, 2004
Its funny to read other's frustrated opinions at this point. Heath, I'm frustrated too. But I'm more frustrated with Wallace then Wally. Hell, Lebron has me frustrated too. It is too soon to give up on this team, but right now we are bad. We agree on one thing Smith needs more minutes and should start.
As long as we are not set on the starting 5 yet why not
1 2 3 4 5
West, Lebron, Smith, Wallace, Z
Get Smith out there more. Play the Hot Hand
As long as we are not set on the starting 5 yet why not
1 2 3 4 5
West, Lebron, Smith, Wallace, Z
Get Smith out there more. Play the Hot Hand
-
CzBoobie
- Assistant Coach
- Posts: 4,054
- And1: 403
- Joined: Dec 29, 2005
- Location: EU
Though I'm not as excited as I was before and after the Memphis game, I still refuse to believe we would be better with Hughes, Gooden, Newble and Marshall in the long run. Those last two games definitely were not pretty but it's still only two games and we have yet to see our complete roster together. And I think Smith deserves more playing time, Wally less.