A Concession from a Kobe fan

[second_coming32]

In previous years there was absolutely no debate who was the better player. Lebron had to go through some growing pains despite still being one of the top three players in the league. The knock on him last year was that he wasn't clutch, he couldn't do it in the 4th quarter, he lacked a killer instinct. And then the ECF happened and all that was put to rest.

Last year I would have made the argument that if you put Kobe on the Cavs, not only do the Cavs make the finals, but they win a couple games as well. As much as you Cavs fans hate to admit it, Illgauskas, Hughes, Gibson, Varajeo, are better than, Odom, Smush, Kwame, and Walton (Bynum was a non factor that year). Kobe took those players to a 24-11 record before all the injuries happened. You put Lebron on the Lakers from last year, and they don't make the playoffs. Period.

THIS SEASON however....which is what matters. You put Kobe on the Cavs and they are a 40-30 team. If you put Lebron on the Lakers and they are a 49-22 team. Lebron has closed the gap at 23, and I expect him to take the title from Kobe next season as the games best player. As a Laker fan, watching the last head to head matchup between the two and seeing Lebron beat Kobe was all the proof anyone needs. Take away the numbers, take away the teams. Down the stretch those two went one on one. Kobe couldn't stop Lebron, Lebron shut down Kobe. Period. Put them in a seven game series without Pau, and I think the series goes 6 or 7, but the Lakers pull it out, and I say that only because the Lakers have a better team right now.

Kobe is far and away better skilled than Lebron, and I don't think anyone is going to argue that point. Lebron's edge comes from his size...he is essentially...Magic Johnson on steroids. Kobe can get by anyone on his talent, Lebron will do it because he's bigger.

Lebron still has a little more to go to match the intensity of Kobe....an in that category I'm not sure he gets there at all. But make no mistake about it, Lebron has closed the gap.

Lebron 19 < < Kobe 25
Lebron 20 << Kobe 26
Lebron 21 <<< Kobe 27
Lebron 22 < Kobe 28
Lebron 23 = Kobe 29
Lebron 24 >= Kobe 30
Lebron 25 >= Kobe 31
Lebron 26 > Kobe 32
Lebron 27 >>> Kobe 33
Lebron 28 >> Kobe 34 (Kobe probably retires here).

Now when it's all said and done and the discussion begins over who was the better player over the span of both there careers? That will be measured by rings 1st, numbers 2nd....and I'm not prepared to make the argument either way on that one.

[L&H_05]

Not sure how he's more skilled considering LBJ's superior in many aspects of the game outside of his stroke..

I give Kobe the nod in terms of the intensity right now, but in terms of defense, the gap has closed tremendously.. However, I do believe LBJ will be at his best when he gets someone that can take the pressure off of him and allow him to do his thing like Shaq did for Kobe.. Granted, LeBron won't need someone as talented as Shaq to get his rings, but it will be nice just to have someone take that pressure off of him...

[second_coming32]

Lebron will get his player....and his numbers will subsequently go down....just like Kobe's. Why? It won't be necessary to put up those numbers to win. Thats why you can't judge this by numbers....it's just not relevant, especially when Kobe has shown that he can also put up numbers. Lebron should always get more rebounds than Kobe because he's a forward....Kobe is a two. Lebron IS a better assist man than Kobe, but Kobe is the better scorer.

And in what world do you live in that you believe Lebron has better skills than Kobe?

Ballhandling.....Kobe
Shooting......Kobe
Driving to the basket.....equal
Defense......Kobe

What skills are you referring to?

[TheOUTLAW]

I have no idea why Kobe friends love to always talk up Kobe (especially on this board). Kobe has never in his life put up the same stats as LeBron. He just hasn't. Sure he's not s SF so he doesn't rebound like LeBron, but then LeBron not the PG and he's pretty much always assisted better than Kobe. Not only that but LeBron shoots at a higher percentage as well. So sure, you can believe that Kobe was better than LeBron even last year, but that doesn't mean that anyone here is going to agree with you nor is this the place to have that debate.

[L&H_05]

Lebron will get his player....and his numbers will subsequently go down....just like Kobe's. Why? It won't be necessary to put up those numbers to win. Thats why you can't judge this by numbers....it's just not relevant, especially when Kobe has shown that he can also put up numbers. Lebron should always get more rebounds than Kobe because he's a forward....Kobe is a two. Lebron IS a better assist man than Kobe, but Kobe is the better scorer.

And in what world do you live in that you believe Lebron has better skills than Kobe?

Ballhandling.....Kobe
Shooting......Kobe
Driving to the basket.....equal
Defense......Kobe

What skills are you referring to?

Kobe is a better shooter and that's it... Kobe's best year scoring was 4 points better than LBJ 35-31... Yet, LBJ took less shots and averaged over 2 more assists..

Saying Kobe is a better scorer is wrong IMO... I will give you the shooting, he's a superior shooter even down to the form..

Ball Handling ??? Are you kidding.. They average right around the same amount of TO's and Kobe operates in a triple post offense..

Driving to the basket being equal ??? This is not even close...

Defense ? Kobe..But the gap is closing in a hurry..

On top of being a better rebounder due to the size and position.. Having superior court vision and passing ability, and not to mention has been leading his team since being an 18 year old when Kobe was still the #2 option on his..

[INKtastic]

Kobe fans see kobe as "more skilled" because he is better at some things - like mid range shooting, foul shooting, thus is perceived as having the more complete game.

But that overlooks that LeBron is better at other things - rebounding, passing, ball handling, getting to the rim, etc.

LeBron caught Kobe 2 years ago which is why the coaches and players named LeBron, not Kobe, as co-league MVP that year (sporting news MVP).

And there's no need to talk about who wins finals games last year Kobe doesn't even get the cavs to the finals last year.

And how is Kobe the better ball handler? LeBron handles the ball more, can get to the rim seemingly at will by breaking down the defense with his ball handling, yet Kobe is the one with more ball handling turnovers (102 to 72).

And there's no way Kobe is better than LeBron at driving to the basket. LeBron gets to the basket for 38% of his shots and hits them at .703 (I believe that is a league best). Kobe gets to the basket for 26% of his shots and hits them at .645. This is why LeBron is the more efficient shooter even though Kobe is the better shooter.

Kobe perhaps may be the better defender over the course of the game, but LeBron is better in the 4th quarter with the game on the line. He constantly shuts down the other teams best wing player the last 6 minutes of the game. Guys from Kobe to Rip.

[second_coming32]

Ok, the fact that I'm a Laker fan automatically makes you guys right? I mean I've never heard anyone outside of Cleveland argue the things you are arguing. Every NBA analyst, almost every NBA player will tell you that Kobe is better than Lebron....and that's not my opinion, those are facts. It seems to me that to intelligent basketball fans outside of Cleveland, they all for the most part concede that Kobe is better. I can understand homerism and it's easy to make a case for either player, and the case will be made here for Lebron...I get that....go to the Lakers board and you'll get the opposite.

But I recall on more than a couple occasions random Cavs fans coming on our board to state there case for Lebron. Including that guy that posted that same post on every teams board. So don't sit there and tell me that my arguments are invalid because I'm a Laker fan. I came here to have an intelligent conversation, and even concede that the gap has been closed. But some of your insecurities are causing the lot of you to speak irrationally.

As far as the skills and who's better, I'm not going to argue that, because we'll go around in circles and we wont get anywhere. I'm not here to convince you that Kobe is better. I simply made a concession that they are right about equal with Kobe having the slight edge. It seems to me listening to some of your arguments as to why Kobe's achievements are irrelevant are not fair.

You say that Kobe never won without another superstar on his team....neither did Jordan....and neither will Lebron. So how does that discount his three rings? You say that Lebron is the better assist man....he also handles the ball 80% of the time in your offense. Kobe slashes and finds guys on the drive, almost never starting with the ball the way that Lebron does....completely different offenses, but pretty much the same results.

You say that Lebron rebounds better....but he's also a forward....so he should rebound better. If you want to put it down to scoring...do you doubt that Kobe playing with the Cavs wouldn't also put up similar numbers....especially playing against the east? I mean you have two good defensive teams...Boston, and Detroit....and then what? 31 8 and 8 are phenomenal numbers, they are epic....but so were Kobe's when he torched the league for 35.4, when he was playing basically by himself, the same way that Lebron is this year.

Mark my words.....Lebron WILL NEVER EVER put up those kinds of numbers. He's also not that kind of player. Thats not his game. He's more of the Magic Johnson mold.

I'm not taking anything away from Lebron, just don't take anything away from Kobe. And if you're going to make arguments taht nobody else in any other city would make, at least have some valid evidence to back it up.

[INKtastic]

I do appreciate you coming to the cavs board to praise LeBron vs Kobe. That's somewhat rare to hear from Lakers fans. However, I would suggest that as a Lakers fan, you don't get to watch leBron enough to really appreciate the level he's at this year.

As for most of the things I mentioned, those are not just some biased opinions from cleveland fans, there are solid stats to support them. Study these pages for a while

http://www.82games.com/0708/07CLE13A.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07LAL7A.HTM

and while you're at it, look at these equivalent pages that only look at clutch time play

http://www.82games.com/0708/07CLE13E.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07LAL7E.HTM

I suggest you put each pair up side by side (or print them out) and compare them. What you'll find is Kobe is a better jump shooter and foul shooter, but statistically isn't better at much else.

Just look at the gap this year in performance.

LeBron 30.8 points on .486 shooting, 8.2 rebounds, 7.3 assists
Kobe 28.3 points on .461 shooting, 6.2 rebounds, 5.4 assists

That's a gap of 2.5 points, 2.0 rebounds, 1.9 assists.

And it's a bit early in LeBron's career to put caps on what he may or may not accomplish.

[second_coming32]

You are absolutely right in that it is way to early to say who is better, especially when Lebron is 23. And I concede that statistically this season, Lebron is having a way better season. His numbers are incredible, and I absolutely concede that he is having the best season in the NBA this year.

I also concede that Kobe for the most part, hasn't had the same production in the clutch as he's had in other years, and that this year, Lebron is better in the clutch. You will here no argument from me in that regard. And I've taken a considerable amount of heat from my Laker buddies in conceding that point, but after watching the 2nd game between two this year, how could you argue otherwise. I wont' argue something that I don't believe.

Conversely, just as I have not watched as many Lebron games during this season, I can say the same that you have not watched enough Kobe games to really appreciate the level that he's playing at this season. Even though his numbers are a little down, everyone in the Lakers camp, Phil Jackson included, are saying that he's playing better basketball than he's ever played (smarter). That included Derrick Fisher who's been around for awhile. He's sacrificing numbers for wins, and doing everything we've wanted him to do for the last 11 years.

I love Lebrons game and it just may turn out that he will be remembered as the greatest player ever....but he still has a lot to prove. At this point however, one thing that you can absolutely argue....Kobe and Lebron are at the top of the Basketball world, and what a Finals it would make to match them against one another. Screw Boston vs. LA, I want to see the Lakers vs. Cavs. Circa 1991....Magic vs. Jordan.

[INKtastic]

I do agree that I'd love to see a cavs/lakers finals with both teams healthy and see the two best players in the league and the two best clutch players in the league go head to head. With the emergence of Bynum and the trade for Gasol, I could see the cavs/lakers meeting more than once in the finals over the next few years.

[B Mac]

How can you say that no one outside of Cleveland is saying LeBron is better when even on the Laker board there was a thread after the last Cavs vs Lakers game that said LeBron is better than Kobe?

I understand not wanting to let the title of best player in the league go without a fight, but right now the only thing keeping Kobe on top in many people's eyes is his experience.

[TheOUTLAW]

To be honest. I don't normally get into these Kobe Vs. LeBron debates because Kobe fans are generally so insanely zealous in their defense of him. In fact there is even a surrepticious Kobe Vs LeBron thread on the general board as we speak (started by a Kobe fan) trying to demean LeBron by saying that he makes his teammates worse. Feel free to believe what you'd like, but I've actually thought LeBron was the better teammate for years and the better player for the last few.

[L&H_05]

"A Concession from a Kobe fan"

Translation:

I just have to tell ya, LeBron is great, just not as great Kobe.. KTHAXBYE...

[second_coming32]

"A Concession from a Kobe fan"

Translation:

I just have to tell ya, LeBron is great, just not as great Kobe.. KTHAXBYE...

Actually it went more like


I just have to tell ya, LeBron is great, just not as great Kobe...yet.

[eyejayem]

I am a true Lebron fan but I am more a fan of basketball. With that said I believe Kobe is the best player in the league and it is for one reason and one reason only. Lebron this year is playing better than Kobe has ever for his entire career but with that said so is Kobe. Maybe not statistically with 35 pts, wow(sarcasm), but still lose. But basketball is a team sport and this is the first year that Kobe is playing team basketball while being the 1st option.

Kobe has been running a team for 4 seasons and Lebron for 5 but Lebron has always trustd his teamates whether weak or strong. Kobe is only doing it now because Bynum has emerged and Gasol was traded. With both injured it seems like the old Kobe may show up again but Odom finally has stepped up his play but we will see for how long.

We easily know though that Kobe is peaking and Lebron is just starting his ascent. Who was ever this good at 23? I'll give it to Kobe this year but the next 5 to 10 years is almost already written in the books.

[TheOUTLAW]

I will agree with that viewpoint. Kobe while a great player has never been one to utilize his teammates. Eventhough people are now trying to argue that he's done more with his teammates than LeBron (which is a huge load of crap). I have yet to understand when shooting percentages and ppg became the definition of how well a player is playing. That being said this is the first year that I believe that Kobe has actually utilized his teammates to the betterment of his team. I still wouldn't prefer Kobe for my team, but at least now I have gotten to the point where I don't consider him a negative to the team.

[second_coming32]

You guys are being way to hard on Kobe, but what else could I expect coming here trying to have this discussion on the Cavs sight. Sure, Bynum emerged this year, but you have to give Kobe some credit for that. Farmar, Vujacic, Odom, Turiaf, Radmanovic are all playing great....and you HAVE to give Kobe some credit for that. You say this is the first year he played within the team concept, and I would have to correct you on that. He's lead his team in assists pretty much every year he's been in the league.

One thing that he hasn't done as well as Lebron in terms of playing with his teammates is mesh well with them. Kobe's intensity would work against him most of the times. Yeah, he'd pass them the ball, but miss an open jumper or turn the ball over and Kobe would be in their face about it. He gave them no room to grow, he demanded greatness and his players simply weren't ready. Jordan followed this same path, the only difference was that he was playing with Veterans who could handle it.

This is the first time Kobe has been completely positive and nurturing with this teammates, and the results have been obvious. You have to give Kobe some credit in terms of how fast Pau meshed in the Lakers system. That was not an accident. Shaq had problems, Kidd is still having problems, all your new players are struggling a bit, but Pau came right in and started balling with Kobe. That was no fluke.

I know your not going to give these arguments much merit, becuase after all it is your board, but lets stop picking the fly sh** out of the pepper when it comes to Kobe's game. Most of you haven't watched very many Kobe games to make the assessment that he's never been a team player until THIS season....that simply is not true and I'm not going to accept.

Yes, Lebron is better at meshing with his teammates than Kobe was at 23....absolutely, but Kobe wasn't chopped liver. And Lebron was not a better player than Kobe was at 23....absolutely not. Kobe's numbers weren't as good, but thats becuase he deferred to Shaq in the post a lot of the time. He was twice the defender that Lebron was, and he was already established as the baddest man alive in the clutch at that time. Kobe was also the poster boy for the NBA at that time (pre-trial).

So yeah, everything Lebron is doing is great....but Kobe's been there, and done that. I'm giving Lebron and you guys the respect of acknowledging Lebrons game....lets not be moronic and try to sit there and discount Kobe's game.

[TheOUTLAW]

How would you know, this is the first time that Kobe shared the ball.

Nobody is discounting Kobes game. It is you that is being upset by people not just agreeing with you that Kobe was the better player.

[second_coming32]

How would you know, this is the first time that Kobe shared the ball.

Nobody is discounting Kobes game. It is you that is being upset by people not just agreeing with you that Kobe was the better player.

Outlaw, I don't understand your response.

I would know because I've been watching Kobe play since his rookie year when I was 16 years old. And I'm not really understanding what you are trying to say. I'm not saying this is the first year he has shared the ball, because he has always shared the ball. I'm saying this is the first year that he has taking a positive approach in leading this team. It's made all the difference in the world. He's picking his spots and making the correct plays better than he ever has before.

And I'm not coming here to say that Kobe is the better player, and I'm not getting upset that you don't think he's the greatest. I could care less really. Thats like having the age old argument of "my dad can kick your dads ass". Nobody is going to convince the other.

I'm arguing that Kobe and Lebron are on an equal plane....and rather me trying to say Lebron isn't the best because of A, B, and C, and you saying that Kobe is not the best because of X, Y, and Z....maybe we should all just show the proper respect.

Laker fans could give a rats ass about Lebron and the Cavs, just like you could care less about us. But I'm not going to fail to recognize greatness. If thats something that you want to do fine. If you want to trivialize this debate you are going to miss out on the beauty of these two players.

Why don't we just leave it at that.

[B Mac]

This
is
comical.