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No Vince Carter

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kiwibrindle
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No Vince Carter 

Post#1 » by kiwibrindle » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:13 pm

We need another big. We do not need another 2. Lucky Charms Delonte is playing magically delicious and played great against Boston in the playoffs last year.

Danny, say no to the Vince rumor pleae.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#2 » by witnessmoboobie » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:36 pm

Vince plays crappy defense too
Is Larry Hughes having fun yet?
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#3 » by prekazi » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:00 pm

Actually Vince can play decent defense but I don't want him. I don't want a SG. I don't want an allstar PF.

Just bring Joe Smith back!
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#4 » by L&H_05 » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:23 pm

If Vince had a more favorable contract, it would be a no brainer... He can shoot, drive, is an unselfish player and passer and knows how to get to the line...

Everything would happen so easy here... Real defensive teams don't play a zone, so this means that one of our 3 main perimeter threats would be getting one on one coverage all game basically.. The best defensive teams in the league would not be able to defend us...
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#5 » by rjgraca » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:55 pm

I don't think I would go as far as absolutely ruling out Vince here in Cleveland, but if he came at a similar cost that Mo Williams did... I think that would be a no brainer too.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#6 » by eyejayem » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:35 am

I was thinking that I think Vince or someone scoring that load would not fit.

But then I thought whoa as easily as we would believe that there is no way there is enough ball I thought let's say it is for Wally, whether it is Vince or SJax they make our offense more potent. We still go through our dryspells even though we have been more efficient we just go though less bad times on offense. When we used to dry up for a quarter usually the 3rd, it is now only 5 min at most.

We needed another playmaker and we got Mo and he is great but if we got Vince or Sjax they are both players that can penetrate all the way to the hole and handle the ball and are not looking to just score. That combination would be dangerous and I believe make our team more dangerous than any PF that we can get right now,there are not many.

I like SJax better because his contract(7 mil), defense, post up, and ties with Brown. Vince is a much more proven player but that means more humbling, which means more risk(even though SJax has crazy on his side). But SJax would know his scoring would go down due to going to a defensive system from the Nellie system so him replacing Wally's 8- 10 pts and his pts dropping to ~15 from 18 isn't far fetched. The biggest thing would be asking him to be that 1st person off the bench(a la Manu/starter min off bench) so he can lead that second unit or start when we play against Lakers(Kobe), Atlanta(Joe Johnson), Philly(Iguodala), really the big guards that Delonte can't guard as well (as good as Delonte is, there are a few).

So with this I can see our offensive efficiency going up even more, our transition defense which has been our achilles heal improving, our bench getting stronger, Lebron playing offball more while avg similar assists, our scoring going up.

I don't think this will hurt our chances of getting Bosh. One I don't think Bosh is going to ask for a trade right now which is what everyone is saying. But when 2010 comes around and Bosh says he wants a S&T to the Cavs or he will walk for nothing and take max dollars somewhere esle I think Toronto takes our best offer(SJax,Hickson,2 1sts, filler) or some 3 way.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#7 » by DowJones » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:40 am

Carter's contract isn't that bad. He is currently 31 years old, but will turn 32 in a month. He has 2 more years on his contract after this year. So you essentially have him until he is 34. That isn't too bad. He has a team option as well, so if Vince is doing very well then we could always pick it up...but I doubt he would be worth the $18,000,000 it would take.

I think Vince has AT LEAST 2 more really productive years left. Then at the very least he becomes a big expiring contract in 2010-2011.

I would take Carter if we can't get a good PF that is reasonably young. How amazing would it be if Gasol was still on the market? He would be the ideal fit for this team.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#8 » by DowJones » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:43 am

BTW, Jackson's contract is a killer. It is for 5 years. He won't be worth his contract in 2 years. Carter's contract only has 3 years on it. Those 2 extra years are pretty big, even if Carter is getting paid more during those years.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#9 » by Icness » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:22 am

Oh come on! Vince Carter, the NBA's answer to Tony Romo? I thought the goal was to win in the playoffs, not get style points while being upset by a sub-.500 team in the 1st round.

Think back to the Cavs-Nets playoff series where Vince wilted like a scared little mouse any time the posssessions mattered. Keep him the heck away from this team!
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#10 » by DowJones » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:41 am

Icness wrote:Oh come on! Vince Carter, the NBA's answer to Tony Romo? I thought the goal was to win in the playoffs, not get style points while being upset by a sub-.500 team in the 1st round.

Think back to the Cavs-Nets playoff series where Vince wilted like a scared little mouse any time the posssessions mattered. Keep him the heck away from this team!



LMAO at you. Yeah, Wally is so much better. Vince Carter isn't the type of guy that can lead a team to a title. He sure as heck wouldn't be that guy in Cleveland either. He just has to be part of the puzzle.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#11 » by L&H_05 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:27 am

Icness-

You can't base a comparison off of complete opposites..We have no idea what Vince would do here with this lineup... He's never played with another dominant scorer that garners the entire defense's attention...

IMO, you put a talent like Vince with his skill set on this particular roster, you really put defenses at a disadvantage... Vince is a triple threat player... He can drive, shoot, and create...
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#12 » by Mr2400 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:41 am

the wiretap article merely said that the two sides has not discussed a deal recently. i don't think that necessarily means that the cavaliers aren't keeping carter in mind. I'd love to have him in a cavs jersey. He definitely puts the cavs over boston in my mind. He, lebron, and mo are just far too good for any defense the celtics could possibly put together.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#13 » by eyejayem » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:57 pm

I think that may be true.

If Cavs go big, there is no way Ray is staying with Carter and Rondo is too small to switch.
If they go small than KG has to guard Lebron on the perimeter where he isn't comfortable defending and there is no way Pierce guards Lebron and they put Garnett on Carter.

As far as the Lakers they will automatically have to start Ariza because he is their best man defender at the wing and that would be their best bet because Odom looks best off the bench and Luke and Radmanovic would get burned. They could also start Sasha because he is pesky and I can see him causing a little trouble for Carter but that would mean Kobe would have to guard Lebron and we have seen what Lebron has been trying to do to great defenders across the league, he is trying to impose his will and last time they met Lebron was going right at Kobe daring him to stop him and Lebron was inviting him to do it at the other end.

I can see Carter humbling himself because he did it for Kidd even after the times Kidd bad mouthed last season Carter did not retaliate.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#14 » by Icness » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:11 pm

L&H_05 wrote:Icness-

You can't base a comparison off of complete opposites..We have no idea what Vince would do here with this lineup... He's never played with another dominant scorer that garners the entire defense's attention...

IMO, you put a talent like Vince with his skill set on this particular roster, you really put defenses at a disadvantage... Vince is a triple threat player... He can drive, shoot, and create...


What did he accomplish with RJ and Jason Kidd next to him? Jefferson is a good scorer and Kidd is the best playmaker of this generation. Vince struggled to get his when RJ was scoring in bunches and it affected his overall play. He's one of the least clutch players I can think of in all of pro sports. He'd probably be worth a couple of extra regular season wins on those nights where he's feeling 100% healthy and doesn't take a quarter or two off at either end. But I would rather have Boobie or West on the floor in the 4th quarter of a playoff game. And you don't make a deal for a guy like Vince and then not play him in crunch time, just doesn't work that way.

Plus, adding an ego and a prolific scorer to this lineup means the cohesion is gone, the rotation gets shuffled, the roles get screwy. That takes time to sort out and we're finally getting all the pieces together real nicely. Why fool with that when the reward almost certainly isn't any better than what we've got already? Like I said, keep Vince away--let Orlando or Houston trade for him and watch him sink their playoff ships.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#15 » by mg » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:25 pm

I agree with Icness and would rather not see another ego on this team that could upset the entire apple cart. No doubt VC is having a good season but that NJ offense is geared entirely around Vince and Devin shooting the ball. He would not have that type of green light in Cleveland.

I think the bigger need is adding one more rotational big man before the playoffs start. Adding a Joe Smith or another big could be the final piece and would not disrupt the incredible chemistry with this team.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#16 » by eyejayem » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:02 pm

I can understand the last two comments but saying that Vince has an ego is like saying he is injury prone.

They are both wrong.

Last year Richard Jefferson made an issue about not being a focus of the offense. Carter shot attempts went down but his scoring dropped from ~25 pts since joining the Nets to ~21 while Jefferson jumped from ~16 to ~22. That is humbling for a player whose central focus seems to be scoring.

So for a player whose "central focus" is scoring he is only one of the three players who averages +20pts, +6 rebs, + 5 ast last season. The other two Kobe and Lebron.

Vince got the title of being spoiled or a big ego guy because of his last year in Toronto where he was obviously frustrated and stated he did not want to be in Toronto any more. But who has stayed in Toronto? Who wants to? Camby, Damon Stoudemire, Zo, Vince, and next year Bosh. No one has ever stayed.

In NJ, no turmoil from Vince's end for 4 years and showed his loyalty to a good franchise by showing he wanted to stay. Kidd made comments outright and was blamed as the chemistry guy once he was traded to Dallas. After the trade Vince kept them in playoff contention until the last week of the season and had a better record post Kidd than pre-Kidd.

And the injury thing is the easiest to dispute. His two surgeries were in 01 and 02 if I am correct. He played 43 games in the 02-03 season. The rebound season of 03-04 he played 73 games, pretty good in my eyes coming back from knee surgery in a situation where you are unhappy playing in Toronto and you can fake being injured. Then the last 4 seasons, he hasn't played less than 76 games a season.

Another question, wasn't Ray Allen and Paul Pierce two egos people said wouldn't go with their defensive skills or lack of and need for the ball in their hands last season? I guess team defense has helped Ray (I think Cavs team defense is a better system) and the ability to win a championship humbles people. Vince has rarely been asked to be that second guy but players respect Lebron and why would it be different for Vince. 45% from the field and ~40% from 3.

Lebron said his dream stat line is 22pts/10rebs/10asts. I can see that with Lebron playing SF/PF and Vince playing SF/SG. Vince avg 18-20/6reb/6asts. Mo avg 14/4/5.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#17 » by mg » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:52 pm

I see your point eyeeyejam but remember we also have to account for Z, West, and Boobie to get their touches too. I just don't see another scoring wing as as the biggest need. I would much rather add a Battier type who could be counted on to add solid defense and hit crucial shots when needed. Even then I would still prefer to add a veteran big and keep the salary flexibility for 2010. Guys like Bosh who could eventually be LeBron's true 'Robin' could be available and all the cap dollars would already be invested in a declining Vince Carter. It's just something else to think about.

From reading Windhorst's columns it sounds like Wally's expiring would only be moved for a once in a lifetime sweetheart deal and the Cavs/Nets aren't even talking now. Ferry is in a tricky situation of not only trying to improve the team for this year but looking into the future to put the Cavs in the best situation to win as many Championships as possible to keep LeBron in a Cavs uniform. I don't want LeBron to look at all the capspace tied up in a declining Vince Carter and have him decide to leave in 2010 and team up with Bosh in NY.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#18 » by NetsForce » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:34 pm

1. I'm not really sure how Vince has an ego when he has been criticized all throughout his career for being too passive...

2. The Nets would never trade Carter to the Cavs, and not because of the Lebron pipedream that some fans have but because the Cavaliers have nothing the Nets value outside of Lebron. There'd probably be some interest in Delonte but he's a MLE type player...
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#19 » by L&H_05 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:47 pm

Icness wrote:
What did he accomplish with RJ and Jason Kidd next to him? Jefferson is a good scorer and Kidd is the best playmaker of this generation. Vince struggled to get his when RJ was scoring in bunches and it affected his overall play. He's one of the least clutch players I can think of in all of pro sports. He'd probably be worth a couple of extra regular season wins on those nights where he's feeling 100% healthy and doesn't take a quarter or two off at either end. But I would rather have Boobie or West on the floor in the 4th quarter of a playoff game. And you don't make a deal for a guy like Vince and then not play him in crunch time, just doesn't work that way.
I couldn't disagree anymore... This team is better than those Nets team... Vince was still the primary scorer on that team, the attention defensively was focused on stopping him... RJ was nice secondary scorer, Vince would be that here... He would make things much easier on LeBron...

You're comparing his situation in New Jersey and somehow won't open your mind up enough to see the possibilities and the differences...

These are some of the same things people were suggesting about Mo... (Ego, cancer, shoot first, not a team player etc....)

Vince is not a selfish player.. Sure, maybe in his younger days he was, but look at the way the guy plays now.. He's not a selfish player at all...

Icness wrote:Plus, adding an ego and a prolific scorer to this lineup means the cohesion is gone, the rotation gets shuffled, the roles get screwy. That takes time to sort out and we're finally getting all the pieces together real nicely. Why fool with that when the reward almost certainly isn't any better than what we've got already? Like I said, keep Vince away--let Orlando or Houston trade for him and watch him sink their playoff ships.
My goodness.. You're literally portraying the guy in the same light as Allen Iverson, and you could not be more wrong in this situation...

I'm sure there's no changing your mind, and I won't try... However, you are flat out incorrect and way off base with your opinion on VC...
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#20 » by eyejayem » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:03 pm

Netsforce I agree with the first point but the second point is different.

If the Nets get a judge to to grant them the right to start building in Brooklyn, Wally becomes the most beautiful deal for Carter you can get. Getting two max contracts in 2010 becomes easier because you now become as attractive as the Knicks in playing in NY. As of right now they wouldn't even open up til 2011 or later. But having a player signed for 6 years would be attractive. But if they stay in Jersey, Carter needs to be kept in order to get seats filled because Harris,Lopez, and even Yi at times are playing great but Carter puts people in seats. And that is just the business part of it.

One reason why Carter would be a great acquisition for many teams,especially anyone looking at Bosh (especially the Cavs) is due to the fact that some teams may rather a S&T so they arent left empty handed(Toronto). Plus if Bosh wants wants to go to Cle he can force a S&T or threaten to leave for nothing. If Toronto or any other team which is a free agency hell(Toronto,Memphis,Minn,etc) they get talent back and they can go for Dwight Howard or Chris Paul sweepstakes in 2011 or 2012.

Anyways MG, I definately agree with you. I can see why we get Carter and I am making the case but he is not my number 1 option. My list:

1.Wally for Mike Miller/Brian Cardinal(both expire by 2010) then do option 3
2.Go directly after Bosh now and hope he is secretly demanding a trade to Cavs
3. Wait for 2010 and go after 1. Wade 2.Bosh 3.Joe Johnson 4a.Amare 4b.Dirk
4. Stephen Jackson is someone I see fitting better plus contract is movable(check Cavs board)
5. Vince Carter

The only question I am really asking myself is are resigning AV or possibly looking at David Lee or Channing Frye next season. A lot of teams are reluctant to spend money before 2010 so I am unsure what Ferry has in mind.

Plus, definately agree with you L&H on last post.

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