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Hmmm, so I checked out that whotheman.com site, I found this one in their archives. They make a good argument.

http://whotheman.com/battle/13409/If_yo ... ick_Lebron

Can anyone, even the Black Mamba topple the King???

um everyone knows LeBron >>> kobe. except the kobe homers of course, but in there world kobes the goat.

ha ha ha....that's like half the NBA fans out there. 40% Lebron, 40% Kobe, 20% Wade...I actually think Wade's got a shot at this argument.

What an idiotic argument

TheOUTLAW wrote:What an idiotic argument

And you're a mod?

Blazer fan here, who was trying to get your guys' take on Ilgauskas, but I came across this thread.

Let me say I hate the Lakers. Hate them. Blazers fans don't hate any team more than the Lakers, trust me.

But come on. Kobe is the most clutch player of our generation, and he has four titles. LeBron is not (as) clutch (yet..?), and has no titles. LeBron is an other-worldly physical specimen, with the coordination to match. But if I were to choose... I would probably say Kobe for at least the next year.

For a forum mod to say that this is "an idiotic argument" is very irresponsible. If it were between, say, Brandon Roy and LeBron, or Chris Bosh and LeBron, then yes, that would be idiotic. But right now, objectively, Kobe is better, unless he has a dip this season.

Be patient, Cavs fans. Your time is coming very soon.

But it isn't quite today.

-Brandon

Hey, aren't you the one who used the word "jerk" in the 'Z' trade rumor thread and you want to call a mod on commenting on a Kobe homer thread. Kobe without Shaq and the Miracle in Gasol would be zero for his career in championships. Shaq is not nearly the same player that he was when he played with the Laker's and the CAVs are not counting on him to be anything other than a part-time second option to add a new wrinkle to their team that was missing last season which was a physical force inside.

Lebron was MVP last season and Lebron ended up second in defensive player of the year honors last season...despite the spin from threads such as the General Board about what Kobe can currently do.

Well, two things:

a) you would be jerks to want Z to be traded. Your team is pretty much championship-caliber already. Let the guy retire there.

b) saying that comparing Kobe to LeBron is "idiotic" is, in itself, idiotic, and I already explained why.

-Brandon

LeBron v Gasol/Kobe, I'd take Lebron and I'm sure Lebron would have defeated them in the Finals had they met. And now that it's LeBron/Shaq v Gasol/Kobe/Artest I'd still take LeBron(and Shaq). What is Kobe's last 3 NBA Finals FG%? 38, 41, 43, well he's getting better (though that 43% included 3 ultra-poor shooting efforts) but still would have no hope of winning an NBA Finals without a Gasol who happened to shoot 60% in the NBA Finals (or in previous years, a Shaq).

Also I should point out that when Kobe shoots 38-43% he's doing it with the worst kind of shots an offensive rebounder could imagine. For example, when Jordan had a poor game he'd still have taken good shots such as fade-aways from just outside the paint, or drives to the basket which fell off the rim etc. So the rebounders would have had a chance to tip them in or at least know where the ball is going. This is in stark contrast to Kobe's forced 25 footers. So when you look at the percentages, realise that we aren't just seeing 38-43%, we're seeing the worst kind of 38-43%.

What's funny is that if you actually read threads on the lakers forum you'd see that most Lakers fans think that LeBron is the better player now. To say that Kobe is better because they won is both juvenile and idiotic. He should have won it, they had the best team. The fact that he didn't win it the previous year is a bigger statement than that they won last year. To be honest, the Lakers should win this year as well, but that still doesn't make Kobe a better player.

I love the Kobe is more clutch argument especially since all stats are contrary to that.

To say that my comment is irresponsible if just flat out wrong. I don't think there is much validity to the argument on the other thread or the comments made on this one. LeBron is flat out better.

Kobe makes more remarkable shots than LeBron but that's because he takes worse shots. People argue that all LeBron does is take (and make) layups, refusing to acknowledge the fact that if the player that they are a fan of could, he'd do the same.

had to comment on this foolish gasol argument.

jordan needed a top 5 all time player at his position as his running mate to win titles.
kobe had a 2 time all star.
i dont' see you dissing on jordan's titles...

sure, gasol gave kobe the better team, but he also hurt his numbers compared to the option of having a team entirely catered to his talents and entirely depended on him being dominant and scoring at all times.
when the lakers had such a team - kobe's numbers rose accordingly.
the problem was that the rest of the team totaly sucked.
the cavs' current roster is head and shoulders above what kobe had to work with back then (odom who absolutly sucks as a second option was the only player worth mentioning back then. the rest were "jems" such as d. george, k.brown, smush parker, b. cook, i could go on and on...), and they STILL got to within 1 rebound of ousting the super loaded confrence champs with kobe playing incredible ball.

so if you look for the numbers - kobe can get it done exactly like lebron can.
but the other thing that having gasol does other than make the team a title contender, is it changes the offense with kobe getting less shots, and expected to be less dominant.

that's just the nature of the game.

or do you think michael jordan would still be the first option on offense had he played with shaq ?
cause he wouldn't.

bottom line, there is no right answer here, but as much as having a teammates like gasol helps the team win, it also hurts kobe's "stats" (yeah, i know it can add too, but overall dominance of the ball is the deciding factor in stats for guys like kobe or lebron, and that drops when you have a go to guy at the post).

for me - if lebron was really clearly better than kobe, his team should have at least barely beaten the team that the lakers have beaten so easily in the finals.
your supporting cast was good enough (if you're assuming lebron>>kobe), you had hca, and you (and lebron) blew it.

imo, not a whole lot will change for you guys this year (at least untill you make a huge trade using z or shaq's contracts), but we'll see.

obviously, on this board the favorite will be lebron which is fine, but you're ignoring some major logic flaws in your arguments of why he is better even though kobe is the proven winner of the two.

twenty23 wrote:um everyone knows LeBron >>> kobe. except the kobe homers of course, but in there world kobes the goat.

LMAO, who's everyone??? You mean Cavs homers that have a username like twenty23. As everyone knows I'm not a Kobe fan Im a LAKER FAN, but peps like you give props and credit to someone like Lebron for achieving what???

Tell me something what has Lebron achieved since he has been in the league? What? And you want to sit here and call people homers when your obviously a huge Lebron homer yourself.
Too funny.

please stop trolling and get back in your church of kobe board where you worship your beloved kobe.
IM NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL TIME IM TALKING ABOUT TODAY, AND YES EVERYONE KNOWS LEBRON >> kobe TODAY.
dont even bother coming back, homer.

I think LeBron (at a younger age) has achieved everything personally that Kobe pretty much has... Now, Kobe has had the great fortune to be drafted by a team that won 55+ games without any real contributions from him, and went on to have team success..

Kobe has been on a team that has had more team success... Yet, he's not really separated himself personally in all reality... But, as a non Kobe fan, you should already know that...

twenty23 wrote:please stop trolling and get back in your church of kobe board where you worship your beloved kobe.
IM NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL TIME IM TALKING ABOUT TODAY, AND YES EVERYONE KNOWS LEBRON >> kobe TODAY.
dont even bother coming back, homer.

So basically by your reply, you dont have any valid or legitimate reason (excuse) why Lebron is better than Kobe??? And your calling other people homers??

So then your next move is basically calling me a troll since thats the next childish comeback you can comeup with since I called you out and you couldnt reply to me, and to divert the attention from my question you get personal by telling me that I need to go back to my church of Kobe when I clearly told you that Im not a Kobe fan but a Laker fan.

It clearly proves who the homer is and FYI Im not trolling and I really dont need to explain to a NUBE like you my reason of being here. Im reply to YOUR post, which you clearly proved you have no clue what your talking about so dont attack me address my post.

TonyMontana wrote:

twenty23 wrote:um everyone knows LeBron >>> kobe. except the kobe homers of course, but in there world kobes the goat.

LMAO, who's everyone??? You mean Cavs homers that have a username like twenty23. As everyone knows I'm not a Kobe fan Im a LAKER FAN, but peps like you give props and credit to someone like Lebron for achieving what???

Tell me something what has Lebron achieved since he has been in the league? What? And you want to sit here and call people homers when your obviously a huge Lebron homer yourself.
Too funny.

How about led a team to the finals with a team that was NOWHERE NEAR the best team collectively in the league. Or won an MVP. Or put up some great career numbers already. That's what Lebron has done. At this point in his career, Kobe wasn't even the best player on his own team. Lebron has been the best player in the league for the year. What Lebron hasn't had that Kobe has is the best team around him. We saw what happens when Kobe doesn't have the best all around team surrounding him. Early playoff exits and a defeat in the finals. PLUS, Kobe has been playing for the GOAT coach. Lebron has been playing for Mike Brown.

Oh, and it didn't take about 10 years and the breakup of a dynasty in addition to missing the playoffs and losing the finals to make Lebron into a team player who has the ability to get his teammates involved OR to take over a game.

TonyMontana wrote:

twenty23 wrote:please stop trolling and get back in your church of kobe board where you worship your beloved kobe.
IM NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL TIME IM TALKING ABOUT TODAY, AND YES EVERYONE KNOWS LEBRON >> kobe TODAY.
dont even bother coming back, homer.

So basically by your reply, you dont have any valid or legitimate reason (excuse) why Lebron is better than Kobe??? And your calling other people homers??

So then your next move is basically calling me a troll since thats the next childish comeback you can comeup with since I called you out and you couldnt reply to me, and to divert the attention from my question you get personal by telling me that I need to go back to my church of Kobe when I clearly told you that Im not a Kobe fan but a Laker fan.

It clearly proves who the homer is and FYI Im not trolling and I really dont need to explain to a NUBE like you my reason of being here. Im reply to YOUR post, which you clearly proved you have no clue what your talking about so dont attack me address my post.

you havnt said any reasons why kobe is better today, homer.
heres my claim, lebron is a a better scorer, defender, help defender, rebounder, a better passer, more efficient, higher per, more clutch, is a better teamate, more win shares, ect. its pretty obvious lebron is much better than kobe nowadays.

kobes a better free shooter, ill give him that.

again, im talking about TODAY, non of this past BS has any reference to this discussion.

When kobe has crap teamates, but still the GOAT coach: 1st round exit
When lebron has crap teamates, with a crap rookie coach: Finals.

Wow. The Laker homers are here to parade about Kobe and his good fortune to have played with Shaq and also needed a Gasol Miracle trade to even sniff the finals. It all comes down to supporting cast and Lebron took the CAVs to the Finals (2207) on a team with a supporting cast that would be a first round exit with huge stats for Kobe had he lead the CAVs like team from that year...oh yeah he did that season with the Lakers and had a very early exit from he playoffs.

Oh, TonyMontana isn't a homer on his word alone. Still think that was classic posting that link on the Boston board to irritate them, but you did retract it which makes it all good. So I guess you are only an unintentional Troller and we believe you on your word alone.

jaypo wrote:How about led a team to the finals with a team that was NOWHERE NEAR the best team collectively in the league. Or won an MVP.

He is naturally gifted and a monster. There is no disputing those facts and he did earn the MVP last year, but so what he failed at leading the best record team in the NBA and in the E/C to the same Magic team that we destroyed in the finals. So what ?
Again he failed to come through. Who cares if your the MVP of the league and you cant lead your team past the Orlando Magics.

jaypo wrote:Or put up some great career numbers already. That's what Lebron has done.

As well as traveling, over acting, despite the fact that he commits the most obvious blocking foul in every game or play, or how about when he puts his shoulder down and pushes off with his arm and gets the calls, or how about crying on every foul, lack of sportsmanship and everything else he has done like pulling tapes from a kid in college that owned him on a dunk.

Sure throw the numbers in there but at the end its who he is overall. Kobe did the samething in 05 06 and 07 where did it get him, no where but sitting at home watching the finals.
So we all know both players can put up the N# but one gets away with murder while the other one gets murdered.

jaypo wrote: At this point in his career, Kobe wasn't even the best player on his own team.

Oh really then who was?? WEAK!!! Who is?? I cant wait to hear this one.

jaypo wrote: Lebron has been the best player in the league for the year.

WOW funny you keep on repeating the samething, Kobe was the MVP last year and we lost to a better team the Cs which happen to beat you guys last year, so here we go again.......... So what HE FAILED at the winning the big prize.............. LIKE ALWAYS.

LMAO, Lebron is the most over hyped over rated player in the history of the NBA. He hasnt won nothing worthy both as a teammate or as a leader and all of his fans like rjgraca, twenty23 and you who are calling others people who disagree as homers, meanwhile you guys are portraying him as one of the best players in the league and you are actually comparing him to Kobe, when he hasnt achieved anything close to Kobe.

jaypo wrote:What Lebron hasn't had that Kobe has is the best team around him. We saw what happens when Kobe doesn't have the best all around team surrounding him.
Early playoff exits and a defeat in the finals. PLUS, Kobe has been playing for the GOAT coach. Lebron has been playing for Mike Brown.

WAIT WHATTTTTTTTTT?????
Oh so now it was his teammates and his coach. Your kidding me right???
You mean to tell me your actually comapring S.Pavlovic, L.Hughes, D.Gooden, Z.Ilgauskas, A.Varejao, D.Gibson, D.Marshall D.Jones, E.Snow, I.Newble, S.Pollard to a boat full of scrubs like S.Parker L.Odom L.Walton K.Brown D.George S.Vujacic B.Cook A.McKie J.Jackson R.Turiaf A.Bynum.

So what was your excuse last year??????? Or better yet what was his excuse when he failed at the Olympics....... Oh ya he didnt have good teammates or a coach!!!

jaypo wrote:Oh, and it didn't take about 10 years and the breakup of a dynasty in addition to missing the playoffs and losing the finals to make Lebron into a team player who has the ability to get his teammates involved OR to take over a game.

See this post proves you have no clue wth your talking about. It was Kobes fault the team broke up. It had nothing to do with Shaq and his greed and him being overweight. Plus Kobe had already gotten his threepeats, and it was time to move on and the Lakes front office didnt fell Shaq was the future of the team and Kobe was. He was left with a bunch of scrubs and he did the best he could to lead his team. 3 years later he went back to the finals as the MVP and lost to a better team which happened to woop your Lebron and your Cavs and lost but returned the next year to win the Finals and the finals MVP, BUT WHAT HAS LEBRON DONE after his failures???


The best part about you guy is that LeBron is leaving for NY in 2010 and you guys are still in complete denial. I almost feel sorry for the guy but then again I don't. You guys are better off without him yet. He is naturally gifted and a monster. There is no arguing about that but he is overrated way overrated. He is one of the biggest cry babies to ever play the game, he gets away with murder, he has no class and he is a poor sport, his walking out on his team after their loss to the magic was really unprofessional and wrong. But he will walk out of Cleveland just like he walked out on his team and teammates. True leaders stand up and take the hit and hit back. He is not a leader and he will never win a title as a leader, he is a great player but so far he isnt a champion and he has failed at every
He will never be as good everyone makes him out to be, and he will never achieve what Kobe has achieved nevertheless to be on the same level as M.J.

TonyMontana wrote:

jaypo wrote:How about led a team to the finals with a team that was NOWHERE NEAR the best team collectively in the league. Or won an MVP.

He is naturally gifted and a monster. There is no disputing those facts and he did earn the MVP last year, but so what he failed at leading the best record team in the NBA and in the E/C to the same Magic team that we destroyed in the finals. So what ?
Again he failed to come through. Who cares if your the MVP of the league and you cant lead your team past the Orlando Magics.

jaypo wrote:Or put up some great career numbers already. That's what Lebron has done.

As well as traveling, over acting, despite the fact that he commits the most obvious blocking foul in every game or play, or how about when he puts his shoulder down and pushes off with his arm and gets the calls, or how about crying on every foul, lack of sportsmanship and everything else he has done like pulling tapes from a kid in college that owned him on a dunk.

Sure throw the numbers in there but at the end its who he is overall. Kobe did the samething in 05 06 and 07 where did it get him, no where but sitting at home watching the finals.
So we all know both players can put up the N# but one gets away with murder while the other one gets murdered.

jaypo wrote: At this point in his career, Kobe wasn't even the best player on his own team.

Oh really then who was?? WEAK!!! Who is?? I cant wait to hear this one.

jaypo wrote: Lebron has been the best player in the league for the year.

WOW funny you keep on repeating the samething, Kobe was the MVP last year and we lost to a better team the Cs which happen to beat you guys last year, so here we go again.......... So what HE FAILED at the winning the big prize.............. LIKE ALWAYS.

LMAO, Lebron is the most over hyped over rated player in the history of the NBA. He hasnt won nothing worthy both as a teammate or as a leader and all of his fans like rjgraca, twenty23 and you who are calling others people who disagree as homers, meanwhile you guys are portraying him as one of the best players in the league and you are actually comparing him to Kobe, when he hasnt achieved anything close to Kobe.

jaypo wrote:What Lebron hasn't had that Kobe has is the best team around him. We saw what happens when Kobe doesn't have the best all around team surrounding him.
Early playoff exits and a defeat in the finals. PLUS, Kobe has been playing for the GOAT coach. Lebron has been playing for Mike Brown.

WAIT WHATTTTTTTTTT?????
Oh so now it was his teammates and his coach. Your kidding me right???
You mean to tell me your actually comapring S.Pavlovic, L.Hughes, D.Gooden, Z.Ilgauskas, A.Varejao, D.Gibson, D.Marshall D.Jones, E.Snow, I.Newble, S.Pollard to a boat full of scrubs like S.Parker L.Odom L.Walton K.Brown D.George S.Vujacic B.Cook A.McKie J.Jackson R.Turiaf A.Bynum.

So what was your excuse last year??????? Or better yet what was his excuse when he failed at the Olympics....... Oh ya he didnt have good teammates or a coach!!!

jaypo wrote:Oh, and it didn't take about 10 years and the breakup of a dynasty in addition to missing the playoffs and losing the finals to make Lebron into a team player who has the ability to get his teammates involved OR to take over a game.

See this post proves you have no clue wth your talking about. It was Kobes fault the team broke up. It had nothing to do with Shaq and his greed and him being overweight. Plus Kobe had already gotten his threepeats, and it was time to move on and the Lakes front office didnt fell Shaq was the future of the team and Kobe was. He was left with a bunch of scrubs and he did the best he could to lead his team. 3 years later he went back to the finals as the MVP and lost to a better team which happened to woop your Lebron and your Cavs and lost but returned the next year to win the Finals and the finals MVP, BUT WHAT HAS LEBRON DONE after his failures???


The best part about you guy is that LeBron is leaving for NY in 2010 and you guys are still in complete denial. I almost feel sorry for the guy but then again I don't. You guys are better off without him yet. He is naturally gifted and a monster. There is no arguing about that but he is overrated way overrated. He is one of the biggest cry babies to ever play the game, he gets away with murder, he has no class and he is a poor sport, his walking out on his team after their loss to the magic was really unprofessional and wrong. But he will walk out of Cleveland just like he walked out on his team and teammates. True leaders stand up and take the hit and hit back. He is not a leader and he will never win a title as a leader, he is a great player but so far he isnt a champion and he has failed at every
He will never be as good everyone makes him out to be, and he will never achieve what Kobe has achieved nevertheless to be on the same level as M.J.

You know somebody's argument has officially lost any type of legitimacy when they pull the "he's leaving in 2010 lololol card". You just make yourself look dumb in that regard.

Tony, I like you and imma let you finish but Orlando fans are the BEST TROLLS OF ALL TIME!

TonyMontana wrote:

jaypo wrote:How about led a team to the finals with a team that was NOWHERE NEAR the best team collectively in the league. Or won an MVP.

He is naturally gifted and a monster. There is no disputing those facts and he did earn the MVP last year, but so what he failed at leading the best record team in the NBA and in the E/C to the same Magic team that we destroyed in the finals. So what ?
Again he failed to come through. Who cares if your the MVP of the league and you cant lead your team past the Orlando Magics.

jaypo wrote:Or put up some great career numbers already. That's what Lebron has done.

As well as traveling, over acting, despite the fact that he commits the most obvious blocking foul in every game or play, or how about when he puts his shoulder down and pushes off with his arm and gets the calls, or how about crying on every foul, lack of sportsmanship and everything else he has done like pulling tapes from a kid in college that owned him on a dunk.

Sure throw the numbers in there but at the end its who he is overall. Kobe did the samething in 05 06 and 07 where did it get him, no where but sitting at home watching the finals.
So we all know both players can put up the N# but one gets away with murder while the other one gets murdered.

jaypo wrote: At this point in his career, Kobe wasn't even the best player on his own team.

Oh really then who was?? WEAK!!! Who is?? I cant wait to hear this one.

jaypo wrote: Lebron has been the best player in the league for the year.

WOW funny you keep on repeating the samething, Kobe was the MVP last year and we lost to a better team the Cs which happen to beat you guys last year, so here we go again.......... So what HE FAILED at the winning the big prize.............. LIKE ALWAYS.

LMAO, Lebron is the most over hyped over rated player in the history of the NBA. He hasnt won nothing worthy both as a teammate or as a leader and all of his fans like rjgraca, twenty23 and you who are calling others people who disagree as homers, meanwhile you guys are portraying him as one of the best players in the league and you are actually comparing him to Kobe, when he hasnt achieved anything close to Kobe.

jaypo wrote:What Lebron hasn't had that Kobe has is the best team around him. We saw what happens when Kobe doesn't have the best all around team surrounding him.
Early playoff exits and a defeat in the finals. PLUS, Kobe has been playing for the GOAT coach. Lebron has been playing for Mike Brown.

WAIT WHATTTTTTTTTT?????
Oh so now it was his teammates and his coach. Your kidding me right???
You mean to tell me your actually comapring S.Pavlovic, L.Hughes, D.Gooden, Z.Ilgauskas, A.Varejao, D.Gibson, D.Marshall D.Jones, E.Snow, I.Newble, S.Pollard to a boat full of scrubs like S.Parker L.Odom L.Walton K.Brown D.George S.Vujacic B.Cook A.McKie J.Jackson R.Turiaf A.Bynum.

So what was your excuse last year??????? Or better yet what was his excuse when he failed at the Olympics....... Oh ya he didnt have good teammates or a coach!!!

jaypo wrote:Oh, and it didn't take about 10 years and the breakup of a dynasty in addition to missing the playoffs and losing the finals to make Lebron into a team player who has the ability to get his teammates involved OR to take over a game.

See this post proves you have no clue wth your talking about. It was Kobes fault the team broke up. It had nothing to do with Shaq and his greed and him being overweight. Plus Kobe had already gotten his threepeats, and it was time to move on and the Lakes front office didnt fell Shaq was the future of the team and Kobe was. He was left with a bunch of scrubs and he did the best he could to lead his team. 3 years later he went back to the finals as the MVP and lost to a better team which happened to woop your Lebron and your Cavs and lost but returned the next year to win the Finals and the finals MVP, BUT WHAT HAS LEBRON DONE after his failures???


The best part about you guy is that LeBron is leaving for NY in 2010 and you guys are still in complete denial. I almost feel sorry for the guy but then again I don't. You guys are better off without him yet. He is naturally gifted and a monster. There is no arguing about that but he is overrated way overrated. He is one of the biggest cry babies to ever play the game, he gets away with murder, he has no class and he is a poor sport, his walking out on his team after their loss to the magic was really unprofessional and wrong. But he will walk out of Cleveland just like he walked out on his team and teammates. True leaders stand up and take the hit and hit back. He is not a leader and he will never win a title as a leader, he is a great player but so far he isnt a champion and he has failed at every
He will never be as good everyone makes him out to be, and he will never achieve what Kobe has achieved nevertheless to be on the same level as M.J.

This trolls on a mission!