Sign and/or Trade

[JonFromVA]

With Miami plummeting in the standings, now down to .500, they can take some consolation that they're they only team in the league right now that can expect to sign a max contract superstar to pair with their own superstar. As a bonus, every game they lose raises the value of their 2010 draft pick (assuming the still have it).

The Cavs on the other hand are trying to win a championship, and when we signed Andy Varejao combined with the news that the cap was likely going down, we pretty much gave up whatever chance we had to sign another all-star. Basically, if we never signed the following players for 2010: Varejao, Moon, Parker, and we took Delonte's buy out, I have the payroll at around $33m - or enough to add another max player even with the cap falling drastically.

Obviously we want to win now, and convince LeBron that we can build a team that can go all the way, but do we have any bullets left in the gun if the team just isn't quite up to snuff?

Some have said that our best shot to add more talent has been via sign & trade and we have the expirings we need to get that done and gutting the team for a 2nd star was never realistic. Well, the trade wires should start heating up today. It is December 15th.We have the assets to pull something off, but can we pull off something that'll make LeBron forget all about joining Wade in Miami, the Nets in NJ, or perhaps taking a paycut to play with Bosh in NY (assuming they can't dump Curry or Jeffries)?

There's a lot of pressure on Danny Ferry to set this team up for the future and convince LeBron to stay, but would anyone rather we'd cut some corners and taken some guys on shorter deals or with team options so we'd have one last play?

Basically, would anyone swap places with Miami?

Or do you think they're just going to end up losing Wade if they keep losing?

[Niko23]

The team as it is constructed now cannot win a championship. We have three starters that would be bench players for dominant teams that we are compared to. We have no legit second option (See the Orlando Series if you need to know what that is important -and the Celtics series two years ago for that matter). We have an ignorant coach. So that being said, Ferry can gamble with this roster now, or he can be proactive in trying to acquire legit talent now to surround LeBron. We have the assets to get multiple deals done.

[Benedict_Boozer]

It's a good question.

Part of me says - I'd rather have the cap space than Moon/Parker/Andy - and I like Moon and Andy, but it's a huge gamble either way. If we don't sign those guys, we regress this year and Lebron is pissed. If we do sign those guys, we can "contend" but still don't realistically have enough talent relative to teams like LA. We were screwed either way.

Also the reality is CLE is not a super attractive market. So even if we had cap space, so do alot of other teams like NYK and MIA - there is no guarantee we could get someone else to sign here.

Where I think a mistake was made was switching mid-stream from a 2010 strategy to a "trade" strategy. It's not entirely Ferry's fault, but it's clear he was making moves the last few years with 2010 cap space in mind but then had to switch. The Shaq trade is the most prominent example.

If we weren't going to preserve cap space, we should have looked to take on a younger core piece big man - guys who were in the market clearly like Kaman or Okafor - they would be long term pieces. Now we are in a situation where Shaq is rapidly declining AND we don't have cap space to sign another core big man.

In retrospect we should have abandoned the 2010 strategy even before last year, Wally and Snow - both those contracts should have been moved for core pieces. Ben/Sasha - both those should have been moved for core pieces. Our cap situation would be alot worse but I think our situation would be better.

Because the reality is, barring another Ferry special type of trade, Lebron will look at our front-court this off-season and see Hickson/Varejao, will see no other star players on the roster, and a back-court of Delonte/Mo where Delonte is mentally unstable.

I just think we have to be honest with ourselves, that core doesn't scream championships. Especially with how good the top teams are now in the league.

Other teams know this also, I don't think they are going to hand Ferry a "Gasol" trade... they know he is under the gun. He has his work cut out for him big time.

[Niko23]

[quote="Benedict_Boozer"]It's a good question.

Part of me says - I'd rather have the cap space than Moon/Parker/Andy - and I like Moon and Andy, but it's a huge gamble either way. If we don't sign those guys, we regress this year and Lebron is pissed. If we do sign those guys, we can "contend" but still don't realistically have enough talent relative to teams like LA. We were screwed either way.

Also the reality is CLE is not a super attractive market. So even if we had cap space, so do alot of other teams like NYK and MIA - there is no guarantee we could get someone else to sign here.

Where I think a mistake was made was switching mid-stream from a 2010 strategy to a "trade" strategy. It's not entirely Ferry's fault, but it's clear he was making moves the last few years with 2010 cap space in mind but then had to switch. The Shaq trade is the most prominent example.

If we weren't going to preserve cap space, we should have looked to take on a younger core piece big man - guys who were in the market clearly like Kaman or Okafor - they would be long term pieces. Now we are in a situation where Shaq is rapidly declining AND we don't have cap space to sign another core big man.

In retrospect we should have abandoned the 2010 strategy even before last year, Wally and Snow - both those contracts should have been moved for core pieces. Ben/Sasha - both those should have been moved for core pieces. Our cap situation would be alot worse but I think our situation would be better.

Because the reality is, barring another Ferry special type of trade, Lebron will look at our front-court this off-season and see Hickson/Varejao, will see no other star players on the roster, and a back-court of Delonte/Mo where Delonte is mentally unstable.

I just think we have to be honest with ourselves, that core doesn't scream championships. Especially with how good the top teams are now in the league.

Other teams know this also, I don't think they are going to hand Ferry a "Gasol" trade... they know he is under the gun. He has his work cut out for him big time.[/quote]


I never really put this into perspective and it is a key statement. GM's around the league know that Ferry is desperate, and if LBJ leaves, could be fighting for his job. Finding a trade partner may be harder than we think

[JonFromVA]

It's a good question.

Part of me says - I'd rather have the cap space than Moon/Parker/Andy - and I like Moon and Andy, but it's a huge gamble either way. If we don't sign those guys, we regress this year and Lebron is pissed. If we do sign those guys, we can "contend" but still don't realistically have enough talent relative to teams like LA. We were screwed either way.

Also the reality is CLE is not a super attractive market. So even if we had cap space, so do alot of other teams like NYK and MIA - there is no guarantee we could get someone else to sign here.

Where I think a mistake was made was switching mid-stream from a 2010 strategy to a "trade" strategy. It's not entirely Ferry's fault, but it's clear he was making moves the last few years with 2010 cap space in mind but then had to switch. The Shaq trade is the most prominent example.

If we weren't going to preserve cap space, we should have looked to take on a younger core piece big man - guys who were in the market clearly like Kaman or Okafor - they would be long term pieces. Now we are in a situation where Shaq is rapidly declining AND we don't have cap space to sign another core big man.

In retrospect we should have abandoned the 2010 strategy even before last year, Wally and Snow - both those contracts should have been moved for core pieces. Ben/Sasha - both those should have been moved for core pieces. Our cap situation would be alot worse but I think our situation would be better.

Because the reality is, barring another Ferry special type of trade, Lebron will look at our front-court this off-season and see Hickson/Varejao, will see no other star players on the roster, and a back-court of Delonte/Mo where Delonte is mentally unstable.

I just think we have to be honest with ourselves, that core doesn't scream championships. Especially with how good the top teams are now in the league.

Other teams know this also, I don't think they are going to hand Ferry a "Gasol" trade... they know he is under the gun. He has his work cut out for him big time.

This was a terrific post and encapsulates all the issues as our options dwindle away.

The thing is, I'm not sure we could have done better than Shaq. Sure we could have had Camby last year if we gave up something of value, or we could have had Brad Miller and John Salmons; but those aren't long-term answers either. I think we tried to get Amare, but Phoenix decided to move Shaq.

What's also interesting is that if Ferry is unable to complete a Hail Mary at the trade deadline and bring in someone like Bosh, he will still have a number of other options depending what he's willing to give up. He might be able to add some other nice building blocks to put around LeBron, but they'd still just be pieces.

In fact, that may be our last play - that Danny Ferry with Dan Gilbert's backing can say to LeBron that we'll always be making smart moves to improve the team and spend money to bring in guys who will help. Shaq and Z may retire, but we'll keep finding guys to replace them while continuing to develop a young core of players like Hickson, Eyenga, Green, Jackson.

There are a number of players I wouldn't want to end up stuck with on the roster if LeBron did leave, but if he's signed on that changes things quite a bit.

Unfortunately any team that signs LeBron can claim they'll make smart moves to fill out their roster and bring in help too, so what Danny has to do is paint the picture and make it clear he's the better artist.

[B Mac]

I hate to say this both because I hate his guts and question his morals but Boozer might be the most attainable and wisest target.

[mcfly1204]

I hate to say this both because I hate his guts and question his morals but Boozer might be the most attainable and wisest target.

What would it take to get Boozer in Cleveland though? Z/Hickson/$3million for a Z buyout? Will Boozer stick around after this season?

[heathmalc]

Other teams know this also, I don't think they are going to hand Ferry a "Gasol" trade... they know he is under the gun. He has his work cut out for him big time.

I never really put this into perspective and it is a key statement. GM's around the league know that Ferry is desperate, and if LBJ leaves, could be fighting for his job. Finding a trade partner may be harder than we think

Excellent points!!!!!

I hate to say this both because I hate his guts and question his morals but Boozer might be the most attainable and wisest target.

What would it take to get Boozer in Cleveland though? Z/Hickson/$3million for a Z buyout? Will Boozer stick around after this season?

No, Hickson and Z will not work because Utah already has their PF, and Z doesn't work because Boozer is an expiring also.

It will take a 1st round pick & Talent (if low pick, like ours) to get Boozer...PLUZ Z's contract...and that's just to match-up.

A deal that WOULD get it done without a 1st round pick is if we took AK47 too!

Something like this:

Cleveland gets:
Boozer
AK47

Utah gets:
Shaq
Delonte
2011 2nd round pick
cash

IF we got a trade done that brought Boozer here, then YES, we would DEFINITELY be able to re-sign him!!!! We would have his bird-rights, and with all the other stars available next summer, Boozer would be at the bottom of the list of desirable free-agents in a buyer's market!!! When he left here the first time, the current CBA wasn't in-place, and the Cavaliers never had a chance to match the offer of the Jazz...same thing happened with Arenas & GSW. So, yes, we'd keep him.

However, the real question is not whether we can get Boozer, rather it is are the Cavaliers willing to pay the price (Shaq) that is going to be required?

And don't forget: The Cavaliers REALLY like Anthony Randolph!!!! If there is a chance for the Cavaliers to get Randolph w/o having to do more than take-on someone like Maggette, then I'd expect the Cavs to do that deal as opposed to the Utah trade. The reasoning is that Randolph is believed by many scouts & pro personnel to be a future multi-All-Star....that includes Ferry & Jent!

[B Mac]

Direct quote from Wine & Gold on Randolph:

The perect system for Randolph, is the one he's been playing in. Given that, he's still a frustration. Great talent level, just so thin and frail. Never would fit here.

[heathmalc]

Direct quote from Wine & Gold on Randolph:

The perect system for Randolph, is the one he's been playing in. Given that, he's still a frustration. Great talent level, just so thin and frail. Never would fit here.

That is the EXACT same reason that Detroit took Darko in 2003 instead of Bosh.... he was considered to be too frail.

W&G is right about frustrating! RA makes you want to punch him sometimes. He is SOOOOOooooo talented on the BB court, it is sickening!!!! Yet, he makes DUMB,DUMB decisions sometimes. Actually, he is a lot like Hickson in that regard, only a lot more talented.....a LOT more talented.

[TheOUTLAW]

Actually the consensus was that Darko Milicic was the second rated player. Feel free to look up as many mocks as you'd like. Not to mention nobody had bosh as high as 2, he was always rated behind Carmelo.

[heathmalc]

Actually the consensus was that Darko Milicic was the second rated player. Feel free to look up as many mocks as you'd like. Not to mention nobody had bosh as high as 2, he was always rated behind Carmelo.

You only strengthen my argument! Chris Bosh's ONLY flaw was considered his weight (210) coming out of GT. If he had been 250/260 He may have went #1 over LeBron.

[heathmalc]

1) The top three picks are easy as one, two, three. After that, the Draft is messier than a teenager's room, because everything is up for grabs. (New York Times, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel )

(Just in case you don't remember, LeBron James will be the No. 1 pick. We know Detroit has its sights set on Darko Milicic at No. 2. And it's close to certain that Denver will take Carmelo Anthony at No. 3.)

Already, there is a lot of pressure on these three. They're the future of the NBA to some. (Orlando Sentinel)

Of course, this angle was the main NBA angle in The New York Times, Chicago Tribune and Sacramento Bee, among others, leading us to believe that story ideas, much like the top three picks in the draft, are predictable.

2) If you think that's predictable, there were no less than five stories about the European influx, including this one: "Draft may seem foreign to most Americans." (Denver Post)

Speaking of which, meet the Boys from Buducnost. (Boston Globe)

But back to the kids at the top. And they are kids. As for LeBron, he met his new coach for the first time late Friday afternoon. And by the picture in this article, Paul Silas liked what he saw. (Akron Beacon-Journal)

Then again, what's not to love? (Cleveland Plain Dealer)

As for the other high-schoolers? Well, some experts are not too high on the high-schoolers. (New Orleans Times-Picayune)

But these days, being a four-year starter in college isn't exactly a guarantee either. (Indy Star)

Where have you gone, Darko Milicic? Pistons nation turns its lonely eyes to you. (Detroit News)

Are the Knicks at No. 9 trying to work a deal with the Raptors at No. 4 to swap picks? (New York Post)

If they do swap, it could involve Latrell Sprewell in some way. Most rumors about the Knicks now include Sprewell. (New York Daily News)

Maybe the Knicks will throw in some Sprewell Racing rims, too (you know, the rims that spin)?

Miami doesn't like its position at No. 5. It's both too high -- and too low. Read it. It will make sense. (Miami Herald)

And what will be left for the Sonics at No. 12? (Seattle Times)

New York Daily News NBA writer Mitch Lawrence has some juicy dish on the Draft. Maybe Seattle will move up? Milwaukee and the Heat swapping picks? The Bulls and Grizz? We'll see. (New York Daily News)

Here's Sam Smith's juicy rumor column as well. (Chicago Tribune)

Then again, one columnist says all the rumors should be taken with a grain of salt (which will increase the already high blood pressure of many GMs). (Deseret News)

http://www.nba.com/features/clickandroll_draft2003.html


Here is some of the stuff from right before that draft... Notice Bosh isn't expected as a "certainty?"... only the top 3 picks were supposed to be "certain."

anywho...

[TheOUTLAW]

Actually the consensus was that Darko Milicic was the second rated player. Feel free to look up as many mocks as you'd like. Not to mention nobody had bosh as high as 2, he was always rated behind Carmelo.

You only strengthen my argument! Chris Bosh's ONLY flaw was considered his weight (210) coming out of GT. If he had been 250/260 He may have went #1 over LeBron.

I'm not sure how that strengthens you argument at all. Bosh was rated as 4th in just about everybodies draft that year and even had he been 250 would not have even drempt of being rated more highly than LeBron who would have gone number one in just about any draft in history.

[heathmalc]

I'm not sure how that strengthens you argument at all. Bosh was rated as 4th in just about everybodies draft that year and even had he been 250 would not have even drempt of being rated more highly than LeBron who would have gone number one in just about any draft in history.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!!!!!!

I respect your opinions Outlaw, but you are way off base on this.

LeBron was rated where he was because he had 2 things that was very rare in a player:
SIZE + SKILL

The ONLY reason Chris Bosh even went to college to begin with was because he was BARELY (202) 200 LBS. He was considered too small for the pros....not STRONG enough! However, after becoming ACC frosh of the year, ALL ACC defensive team, ALL ACC 2nd team, and gaining a little weight (10 LBS) the scouts decided he was good enough...But there was still some doubt because of his size (Which was considered his ONLY FLAW!)

In the history of Basketball drafts, when two players are equally talented, SIZE has ALWAYS been the deciding factor on which player was drafted first!

LeBron & Bosh were nearly equal in the skill department (in-fact, many people saw Bosh playing the 3 or 2 due to his amazing agility at 6'10) The real difference was always LeBron's man-size. He was like that as a sophmore; not quite as big, but you know what I mean...you saw the SI article & photos. Chris Bosh was skinny in comparison. However, Bosh was a FAR more accomplished shooter. I read where he scored 38 on 12/12 from the field, and all but one was outside the paint, plus had 28 rebounds & 8 blocks against one of the top teams in the nation at the time.

IF Chris Bosh had had 50 more LBS of Muscle, I GUARANTEE that it would have been a very hard decision for the Cavs!!!!! Well, maybe not....because he wouldn't have went to GT & we wouldn't be having this convo.

At any rate, you put a guy that is 3 inches taller than his opponent, and it is virtually guaranteed that the skill-set of the two players is both extremely high, and well developed, and the Taller player will get drafted first almost every time. Ask Kevin Durant & Michael Jordan.

Also: LeBron would NOT have been drafted no.#1 in any draft!!!! Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Oden, or Shaq would have ALL been drafted over LeBron .... assuming we only go by what we knew when the players were drafted. Going by what we know NOW.... Shaq STILL is the #1 pick of all time, followed by Jordan, THEN LeBron or Kobe.

[JonFromVA]

I hate to say this both because I hate his guts and question his morals but Boozer might be the most attainable and wisest target.

I've been getting that sinking feeling ever since Dan Gilbert invited Boozer to sit with him last year.

He's not the defensive player we'd want, he's undersized, and his injury history is ugly, but he just turned 28, he can can board at a high level, nail a jumper, score inside, and be a consistent second option. He's not going to get a max contract, and any team with his Bird rights does have a great chance to hold on to him.

He's easily the most obtainable high-level player out there.

Offensively he'd pair up well with Shaq, and when paired up with Andy we'd be lacking height in the front court but Andy would help to balance out Boozer's defensive liabilities, and Boozer would help balance out Andy's offensive liabilities.

The Jazz really could use a SG, but I'm not sure we can really help them there. If they do trade Boozer, they'll need someone who can play minutes behind Millsap, so JJ or Darnell might be of some interest.

[vct33]

With Miami plummeting in the standings, now down to .500, they can take some consolation that they're they only team in the league right now that can expect to sign a max contract superstar to pair with their own superstar.

I would argue that Durant is a superstar and OKC could easily be in a position to sign a max free agent.

[JonFromVA]

I would argue that Durant is a superstar and OKC could easily be in a position to sign a max free agent.

It's premature to say Durant is a superstar, but certainly many people feel he will be and is starting to prove he is this year, so fair point; but can OKC free enough space? It looks to me like they'd have to salary dump Kristic or someone to get their payroll down around $35m in 2010. Of course it all depends where the salary cap is set, but people are guessing it'll be around $52m.

[heathmalc]

"Star" is one thing...SUPERstar is a whole different level. And I do not put Durant on the same level as LeBron,Kobe,Wade!