ImageImage

2025 ATL Thread - Burnes to have TJ surgery

Moderators: paulpressey25, MickeyDavis, humanrefutation

User avatar
Turk Nowitzki
RealGM
Posts: 34,498
And1: 11,522
Joined: Feb 26, 2010
Location: on the Hellmouth
     

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1021 » by Turk Nowitzki » Fri May 17, 2024 7:56 pm

So is Kyle Hendricks like completely cooked or what is going on there?
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 108,218
And1: 42,449
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1022 » by ReasonablySober » Fri May 17, 2024 8:10 pm

Read on Twitter
User avatar
Matches Malone
RealGM
Posts: 36,673
And1: 26,879
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
     

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1023 » by Matches Malone » Fri May 17, 2024 10:26 pm

Read on Twitter
Gery Woelfel wrote:Got a time big boy?
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 108,218
And1: 42,449
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1024 » by ReasonablySober » Sun May 19, 2024 3:21 am

God I hate that Shota's deal is looking like a bargain for the Cubs right now.
User avatar
crkone
RealGM
Posts: 29,180
And1: 9,773
Joined: Aug 16, 2006

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1025 » by crkone » Tue May 21, 2024 12:21 pm

Code: Select all

o- - -  \o          __|
   o/   /|          vv`\
  /|     |              |
   |    / \_            |
  / \   |               |
 /  |                   |
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 108,218
And1: 42,449
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1026 » by ReasonablySober » Tue May 21, 2024 1:19 pm

crkone wrote:https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40186833/mlb-2024-josh-hader-usage-rules-contract-brewers-astros

Buster Olney story about Hader setting limits on his outings


Hader and his agent come off as completely reasonable. MLB and the Stearns look terrible.
MVP2110
General Manager
Posts: 8,671
And1: 4,516
Joined: Jun 28, 2012
Location: Appleton WI
       

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1027 » by MVP2110 » Tue May 21, 2024 2:17 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
crkone wrote:https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40186833/mlb-2024-josh-hader-usage-rules-contract-brewers-astros

Buster Olney story about Hader setting limits on his outings


Hader and his agent come off as completely reasonable. MLB and the Stearns look terrible.


Not sure I see that, we know that the arbitration system is dumb & outdated, by from my knowledge the MLBPA has never proposed an alternative whereas MLB did in the last CBA. And it's not like teams have some massive advantage in arbitration, I believe they win slightly more than 50% of the time but it's hardly at an outrageous rate. If the arb process was truly that terrible then we'd see MLBPA make it a priority to change it but so far they haven't.

When it comes to Stearns I really don't see how he comes off that bad. Hader's agent specifically states that Stearns understood why Hader was putting these rules in place and that he didn't take it personally.
Coach Drew: "Milwaukee has always been a team that I have been intrigued by. When we played them, they were a tough team for us to play. Although we did beat them all four times"
coolhandluke121
RealGM
Posts: 14,272
And1: 7,440
Joined: Sep 23, 2007

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1028 » by coolhandluke121 » Tue May 21, 2024 2:18 pm

I do think Hader and Berry are vindicated, but the real villain is the arbitration system. And saves are so overrated it's disgusting. How does the dumbest idea in the room win out? Hader was far more valuable as the unicorn leverage reliever than as an elite 3-out closer.

Also, it's time to stop underpaying so many of the best players via arbitration for so long. The CBA favors vets, but the players union needs to take a hard look at their role in that. Their own vets aren't getting the contracts they were expecting anymore because it's better business to underpay young players who are just as effective, if not more so.

Arbitration is completely broken.
Wut we've got here is... faaailure... to communakate.
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 108,218
And1: 42,449
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1029 » by ReasonablySober » Tue May 21, 2024 2:19 pm

MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
crkone wrote:https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40186833/mlb-2024-josh-hader-usage-rules-contract-brewers-astros

Buster Olney story about Hader setting limits on his outings


Hader and his agent come off as completely reasonable. MLB and the Stearns look terrible.


Not sure I see that, we know that the arbitration system is dumb & outdated, by from my knowledge the MLBPA has never proposed an alternative whereas MLB has. And it's not like teams have some massive advantage in arbitration, I believe they win slightly more than 50% of the time but it's hardly at an outrageous rate.

When it comes to Stearns I really don't see how he comes off that bad. Hader's agent specifically states that Stearns understood why Hader was putting these rules in place and that he didn't take it personally.


Stearns also acknowledged that the lawyers presenting the case for the Brewers would introduce offensive statements that Hader posted on social media as a teenager, years before he signed professionally (a tactic front offices had used in contentious arbitration hearings before).
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 108,218
And1: 42,449
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1030 » by ReasonablySober » Tue May 21, 2024 2:22 pm

In the end this is just a repeat of the Burnes situation. Was ruining your relationship with your best players worth the extra $750k-$1m? In this case it had a tangible effect on the field.
MVP2110
General Manager
Posts: 8,671
And1: 4,516
Joined: Jun 28, 2012
Location: Appleton WI
       

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1031 » by MVP2110 » Tue May 21, 2024 2:23 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
Hader and his agent come off as completely reasonable. MLB and the Stearns look terrible.


Not sure I see that, we know that the arbitration system is dumb & outdated, by from my knowledge the MLBPA has never proposed an alternative whereas MLB has. And it's not like teams have some massive advantage in arbitration, I believe they win slightly more than 50% of the time but it's hardly at an outrageous rate.

When it comes to Stearns I really don't see how he comes off that bad. Hader's agent specifically states that Stearns understood why Hader was putting these rules in place and that he didn't take it personally.


Stearns also acknowledged that the lawyers presenting the case for the Brewers would introduce offensive statements that Hader posted on social media as a teenager, years before he signed professionally (a tactic front offices had used in contentious arbitration hearings before).


That's not really a Stearns decision though. Teams outsource these cases to outside Lawyers as to not have to argue against their own player. You could say teams could dictate how the lawyers argue but from my understanding teams often stay out of that process and let the lawyers do their thing.
Coach Drew: "Milwaukee has always been a team that I have been intrigued by. When we played them, they were a tough team for us to play. Although we did beat them all four times"
MVP2110
General Manager
Posts: 8,671
And1: 4,516
Joined: Jun 28, 2012
Location: Appleton WI
       

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1032 » by MVP2110 » Tue May 21, 2024 2:27 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:In the end this is just a repeat of the Burnes situation. Was ruining your relationship with your best players worth the extra $750k-$1m? In this case it had a tangible effect on the field.


Compounding precedents is a real thing and if every team had this same thought then player salaries would sky rocket through the arbitration process. I get it's dumb for billionaires and millionaires to be arguing over thousands, but that's because they aren't actually arguing over thousands, each new precedent gives players as a whole millions and cost teams millions. It's a dumb system that should be overhauled but until the MLBPA proposes any sort of alternative then I don't feel bad for them.
Coach Drew: "Milwaukee has always been a team that I have been intrigued by. When we played them, they were a tough team for us to play. Although we did beat them all four times"
User avatar
trwi7
RealGM
Posts: 112,000
And1: 27,619
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: Aussie bias
         

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1033 » by trwi7 » Wed May 22, 2024 11:56 am

MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
Not sure I see that, we know that the arbitration system is dumb & outdated, by from my knowledge the MLBPA has never proposed an alternative whereas MLB has. And it's not like teams have some massive advantage in arbitration, I believe they win slightly more than 50% of the time but it's hardly at an outrageous rate.

When it comes to Stearns I really don't see how he comes off that bad. Hader's agent specifically states that Stearns understood why Hader was putting these rules in place and that he didn't take it personally.


Stearns also acknowledged that the lawyers presenting the case for the Brewers would introduce offensive statements that Hader posted on social media as a teenager, years before he signed professionally (a tactic front offices had used in contentious arbitration hearings before).


That's not really a Stearns decision though. Teams outsource these cases to outside Lawyers as to not have to argue against their own player. You could say teams could dictate how the lawyers argue but from my understanding teams often stay out of that process and let the lawyers do their thing.


Stearns could very easily say hey, we want to win this but this, this and this are off limits in the argument.
stellation wrote:What's the difference between Gery Woelful and this glass of mineral water? The mineral water actually has a source."


I Hate Manure wrote:We look to be awful next season without Beasley.
MVP2110
General Manager
Posts: 8,671
And1: 4,516
Joined: Jun 28, 2012
Location: Appleton WI
       

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1034 » by MVP2110 » Wed May 22, 2024 1:11 pm

trwi7 wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:


That's not really a Stearns decision though. Teams outsource these cases to outside Lawyers as to not have to argue against their own player. You could say teams could dictate how the lawyers argue but from my understanding teams often stay out of that process and let the lawyers do their thing.


Stearns could very easily say hey, we want to win this but this, this and this are off limits in the argument.


In theory yes, but from my understanding teams are very hands off in this process. As stated in the article it's pretty common for the MLB lawyers to use off field stuff in these arb cases. This isn't Brewers vs Hader, it's MLB vs the players. Teams work together to keep player salaries lower and players work together to raise all player salaries.
Coach Drew: "Milwaukee has always been a team that I have been intrigued by. When we played them, they were a tough team for us to play. Although we did beat them all four times"
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 108,218
And1: 42,449
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1035 » by ReasonablySober » Wed May 22, 2024 1:16 pm

MVP2110 wrote:
trwi7 wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
That's not really a Stearns decision though. Teams outsource these cases to outside Lawyers as to not have to argue against their own player. You could say teams could dictate how the lawyers argue but from my understanding teams often stay out of that process and let the lawyers do their thing.


Stearns could very easily say hey, we want to win this but this, this and this are off limits in the argument.


In theory yes, but from my understanding teams are very hands off in this process. As stated in the article it's pretty common for the MLB lawyers to use off field stuff in these arb cases. This isn't Brewers vs Hader, it's MLB vs the players. Teams work together to keep player salaries lower and players work together to raise all player salaries.


It's individual teams vs the players. Hence "the belt":

According to a report from the Athletic, MLB awards a $20, WWE-style championship belt to the team that keeps salaries the lowest in arbitration. MLB told the Athletic that the belt is "an informal recognition of those club's salary arbitration departments that did the best."
MVP2110
General Manager
Posts: 8,671
And1: 4,516
Joined: Jun 28, 2012
Location: Appleton WI
       

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1036 » by MVP2110 » Wed May 22, 2024 1:23 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
trwi7 wrote:
Stearns could very easily say hey, we want to win this but this, this and this are off limits in the argument.


In theory yes, but from my understanding teams are very hands off in this process. As stated in the article it's pretty common for the MLB lawyers to use off field stuff in these arb cases. This isn't Brewers vs Hader, it's MLB vs the players. Teams work together to keep player salaries lower and players work together to raise all player salaries.


It's individual teams vs the players. Hence "the belt":

According to a report from the Athletic, MLB awards a $20, WWE-style championship belt to the team that keeps salaries the lowest in arbitration. MLB told the Athletic that the belt is "an informal recognition of those club's salary arbitration departments that did the best."


Each case might be individual but teams and agents all collude to discuss the best strategies. Teams all hire the same outside lawyers to represent them. Everyone is aware of what a new precedent does to the overall salary for players and how it compounds. People get caught up in the binary of specific team vs specific player arbitration when it's much more about the entire league vs all the players. The Burnes case wasn't just about a few hundred thousand for example. It's a very dumb system that should be overhauled because it just ends up angering players and the arbitrators who decide the cases are rarely baseball experts which is why old time statistics still dominant who wins and loses.
Coach Drew: "Milwaukee has always been a team that I have been intrigued by. When we played them, they were a tough team for us to play. Although we did beat them all four times"
User avatar
Kerb Hohl
RealGM
Posts: 35,651
And1: 4,474
Joined: Jun 17, 2005
Location: Hmmmm...how many 1sts would Jason Richardson cost...?

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1037 » by Kerb Hohl » Wed May 22, 2024 1:41 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:In the end this is just a repeat of the Burnes situation. Was ruining your relationship with your best players worth the extra $750k-$1m? In this case it had a tangible effect on the field.


For a team on a budget like a Brewers, it was worth it. What was the tangible effect?

We argued this all of last offseason when it happened and literally nothing bad happened with the benefit of hindsight. He pitched the entire season and then we traded him as we would've anyways.
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 108,218
And1: 42,449
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1038 » by ReasonablySober » Wed May 22, 2024 1:47 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:In the end this is just a repeat of the Burnes situation. Was ruining your relationship with your best players worth the extra $750k-$1m? In this case it had a tangible effect on the field.


For a team on a budget like a Brewers, it was worth it. What was the tangible effect?


Ignore the hypothetical and the dip in Burnes performance. The article lays out a very real, very tangible way that it screwed the Brewers with regards to Hader. We can talk about the trade working out because it led to Contreras, but Hader went from being a multi-inning guy who could be thrown at any time in the game to being three out only and only in tie or save situations. All over less than $1 million. Change Mark A. finds in his couch cushion.
User avatar
Kerb Hohl
RealGM
Posts: 35,651
And1: 4,474
Joined: Jun 17, 2005
Location: Hmmmm...how many 1sts would Jason Richardson cost...?

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1039 » by Kerb Hohl » Wed May 22, 2024 1:51 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:In the end this is just a repeat of the Burnes situation. Was ruining your relationship with your best players worth the extra $750k-$1m? In this case it had a tangible effect on the field.


For a team on a budget like a Brewers, it was worth it. What was the tangible effect?


Ignore the hypothetical and the dip in Burnes performance. The article lays out a very real, very tangible way that it screwed the Brewers with regards to Hader. We can talk about the trade working out because it led to Contreras, but Hader went from being a multi-inning guy who could be thrown at any time in the game to being three out only and only in tie or save situations. All over less than $1 million. Change Mark A. finds in his couch cushion.


I think everybody that is reasonable understands that the Brewers have a budget. Even you generally agree that you know the Brewers, who still spend above their market, given the rules of baseball, will be a low spender.

"Finding money under the couch cushion" for every cause ends up affecting them. Because you end up asking Mark to go from the 20th highest payroll to the 15th by doing this stuff. It all adds up if you do things out of charity.

Honestly, adhering to Hader's rules might've helped keep him healthy for his entire tenure.

The only thing I'll agree with is maybe the arbitration system needs to change to give relievers a little bit more security - but the funny thing is the guys that will have the biggest problem with that are...wait for it - players that play other positions than relief pitcher.

If there's a dip in Burnes' performance over that - then he can honestly go **** himself. He's a little bitch, then. The rules are in place and he and Hader will both get generational wealth from it.
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 108,218
And1: 42,449
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

Re: 2024 ATL Thread - Hader to Astros - 5/$95M 

Post#1040 » by ReasonablySober » Wed May 22, 2024 1:58 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
For a team on a budget like a Brewers, it was worth it. What was the tangible effect?


Ignore the hypothetical and the dip in Burnes performance. The article lays out a very real, very tangible way that it screwed the Brewers with regards to Hader. We can talk about the trade working out because it led to Contreras, but Hader went from being a multi-inning guy who could be thrown at any time in the game to being three out only and only in tie or save situations. All over less than $1 million. Change Mark A. finds in his couch cushion.


I think everybody that is reasonable understands that the Brewers have a budget. Even you generally agree that you know the Brewers, who still spend above their market, given the rules of baseball, will be a low spender.

"Finding money under the couch cushion" for every cause ends up affecting them. Because you end up asking Mark to go from the 20th highest payroll to the 15th by doing this stuff. It all adds up if you do things out of charity.

Honestly, adhering to Hader's rules might've helped keep him healthy for his entire tenure.

The only thing I'll agree with is maybe the arbitration system needs to change to give relievers a little bit more security - but the funny thing is the guys that will have the biggest problem with that are...wait for it - players that play other positions than relief pitcher.


Giving in to Burnes and Hader's arbitration figures would have sent the Brewers 20th ranked payroll to *drum roll* ........ 20th!

No one is asking Mark to roll over and give in to every arbitration demand. The question is whether you do it for your special players to keep them happy. In this case it absolutely screwed over the Brewers from an on-field perspective.

Return to Milwaukee Brewers