2025 ATL Thread - Burnes to have TJ surgery

[Kerb Hohl]

Ignore the hypothetical and the dip in Burnes performance. The article lays out a very real, very tangible way that it screwed the Brewers with regards to Hader. We can talk about the trade working out because it led to Contreras, but Hader went from being a multi-inning guy who could be thrown at any time in the game to being three out only and only in tie or save situations. All over less than $1 million. Change Mark A. finds in his couch cushion.

I think everybody that is reasonable understands that the Brewers have a budget. Even you generally agree that you know the Brewers, who still spend above their market, given the rules of baseball, will be a low spender.

"Finding money under the couch cushion" for every cause ends up affecting them. Because you end up asking Mark to go from the 20th highest payroll to the 15th by doing this stuff. It all adds up if you do things out of charity.

Honestly, adhering to Hader's rules might've helped keep him healthy for his entire tenure.

The only thing I'll agree with is maybe the arbitration system needs to change to give relievers a little bit more security - but the funny thing is the guys that will have the biggest problem with that are...wait for it - players that play other positions than relief pitcher.

Giving in to Burnes and Hader's arbitration figures would have sent the Brewers 20th ranked payroll to *drum roll* ........ 20th!

No one is asking Mark to roll over and give in to every arbitration demand. The question is whether you do it for your special players to keep them happy. In this case it absolutely screwed over the Brewers from an on-field perspective.

But where do you draw the line? Eventually, this stuff will add up. I'm not just talking about $2 million between 2 players.

Outside of the Brewers trying to pinch some pennies, there is obviously also the unspoken, maybe spoken push from owners to win these. I'm sure the **** Yankees play hardball at these hearings.

If it is known that Mark is a charitable man that likes to keep his players happy for no apparent reason (personally this is why I watch sports - I want to make sure a guy that is going to net $300 million get to $301 million over his career), why would Burnes not have submitted $2-3 million higher? After all, he'd be a happy boy if the Brewers accepted.

What about Adames? Why woudldn't he and Contreras file higher? They could tell the Curt Hogg in an interview that they'll be sad if they don't win the arbitration and Mark is a meanie for not going to $19 million instead of $16 million.

There is literally zero tangible evidence on Burnes having on-field issues, nor would such issues matter in Brewer success given I don't think they were going far anyways last year. If he's going to throw a playoff game over that, then he can go **** himself and he should also be investigated.

[ReasonablySober]

Imagine being out here carrying water for the owners of the team and not the players. Couldn't be me.

Attanasio bought the Brewers for $223 million. The team is now worth $1.61 billion.

But sure, let's argue in favor of the guy trying to keep $740,000k out of the Cy Young winner's pocket.

[Kerb Hohl]

Imagine being out here carrying water for the owners of the team and not the players. Couldn't be me.

Attanasio bought the Brewers for $223 million. The team is now worth $1.61 billion.

But sure, let's argue in favor of the guy trying to keep $740,000k out of the Cy Young winner's pocket.

These guys are all "cheap" on this stuff - even the richest owners. What it does is make the highest payroll $300 million and the Brewers fall in at $110 million. If all of the owners satisfied their top players just a little bit more, we'd see the highest payroll at $305 million and the Brewers at $113 million...and we'd notice not a **** ounce of difference on the field.

That's correct. I like my teams to win, even if they don't cater to every player's desire. Call me crazy, but once Aaron Rodgers is not the best player in the world that can carry you to a Super Bowl all on his own, I will not let him tell me to sign Allen Lazard or make sure Kumerow has a prominent role.

The Brewers, given constraints, are operating about as well as they can. You play hardball with one guy, you play it with all of them...or it will begin to add up.

I would be on your side if there was a tangible difference. Hader only pitched the 9th with the Padres as well even if their rich, dying owner probably brought his report cards from 7th grade where he got an A+ in math to make sure his star reliever was happy and got an extra million.

Both Hader and Burnes had less than a 1% chance to be pitching with the Brewers in 2024 (Hader) or 2025 (Burnes) so I literally don't give a ****. Whatever helps the team, which I believe giving the least to all of your guys in arbitration helps sign other players given the budget.

[MVP2110]

Imagine being out here carrying water for the owners of the team and not the players. Couldn't be me.

Attanasio bought the Brewers for $223 million. The team is now worth $1.61 billion.

But sure, let's argue in favor of the guy trying to keep $740,000k out of the Cy Young winner's pocket.

Whose out here carrying water for the owners? I think we all agree the arbitration system is dumb and should be overhauled. It's something the MLBPA should prioritize and come up with an alternative too. But based on the MLBPAs actions they seem to be perfectly fine with arbitration

[Kerb Hohl]

Imagine being out here carrying water for the owners of the team and not the players. Couldn't be me.

Attanasio bought the Brewers for $223 million. The team is now worth $1.61 billion.

But sure, let's argue in favor of the guy trying to keep $740,000k out of the Cy Young winner's pocket.

Whose out here carrying water for the owners? I think we all agree the arbitration system is dumb and should be overhauled. It's something the MLBPA should prioritize and come up with an alternative too. But based on the MLBPAs actions they seem to be perfectly fine with arbitration

Outside of maybe changing how the proceedings go on - I'm not sure what the solution is, though.

A salary cap which therefore can transform the arbitration system to being more rigid - this absolutely **** the hell out of the players.

Removing arbitration/giving guys like Hader and Burnes an earlier path to free agency - enjoy the Brewers winning 60 games every year.

[MVP2110]

Imagine being out here carrying water for the owners of the team and not the players. Couldn't be me.

Attanasio bought the Brewers for $223 million. The team is now worth $1.61 billion.

But sure, let's argue in favor of the guy trying to keep $740,000k out of the Cy Young winner's pocket.

Whose out here carrying water for the owners? I think we all agree the arbitration system is dumb and should be overhauled. It's something the MLBPA should prioritize and come up with an alternative too. But based on the MLBPAs actions they seem to be perfectly fine with arbitration

Outside of maybe changing how the proceedings go on - I'm not sure what the solution is, though.

A salary cap which therefore can transform the arbitration system to being more rigid - this absolutely **** the hell out of the players.

Removing arbitration/giving guys like Hader and Burnes an earlier path to free agency - enjoy the Brewers winning 60 games every year.

No disagreements. The owners proposed paying players based on statistical performance(I'm sure it was slanted in the owners favor) but that seems like it could be work shopped into something. Maybe paying players based on how much WAR they provide but that also seems like it could be manipulated. I honestly don't know what a better solution is. Honestly the 1st fix I'd like to see is just better arbitrators who understand baseball in a more modern sense.

[ReasonablySober]

Imagine being out here carrying water for the owners of the team and not the players. Couldn't be me.

Attanasio bought the Brewers for $223 million. The team is now worth $1.61 billion.

But sure, let's argue in favor of the guy trying to keep $740,000k out of the Cy Young winner's pocket.

Whose out here carrying water for the owners? I think we all agree the arbitration system is dumb and should be overhauled. It's something the MLBPA should prioritize and come up with an alternative too. But based on the MLBPAs actions they seem to be perfectly fine with arbitration

First of all, Kerb is carrying water for Mark. Very admirable.

Teams settle with individual players every single offseason. Most don't go to arbitration. Burnes won a Cy Young. Hader won the Relief Pitcher of the Year award. Those are two guys you can be flexible for. The Brewers could have done it and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Instead the team blamed Burnes for not making the playoffs and they used old social media posts against Hader.

You talk about precedent. How about the precedent that was established when Hader effectively decided he wasn't going to pitch when he didn't feel like it?

[Kerb Hohl]

Imagine being out here carrying water for the owners of the team and not the players. Couldn't be me.

Attanasio bought the Brewers for $223 million. The team is now worth $1.61 billion.

But sure, let's argue in favor of the guy trying to keep $740,000k out of the Cy Young winner's pocket.

Whose out here carrying water for the owners? I think we all agree the arbitration system is dumb and should be overhauled. It's something the MLBPA should prioritize and come up with an alternative too. But based on the MLBPAs actions they seem to be perfectly fine with arbitration

First of all, Kerb is carrying water for Mark. Very admirable.

Teams settle with individual players every single offseason. Most don't go to arbitration. Burnes won a Cy Young. Hader won the Relief Pitcher of the Year award. Those are two guys you can be flexible for. The Brewers could have done it and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Instead the team blamed Burnes for not making the playoffs and they used old social media posts against Hader.

You talk about precedent. How about the precedent that was established when Hader effectively decided he wasn't going to pitch when he didn't feel like it?

William Contreras goes to arbitration next year. He can come in asking for $30 million and say he's going to tell Curt Hogg and Buster Onley he'll be sad that Mark is cheap and he's not going to DH extra games and instead play the standard amount that most catchers do. He needs his rest.

[MVP2110]

Imagine being out here carrying water for the owners of the team and not the players. Couldn't be me.

Attanasio bought the Brewers for $223 million. The team is now worth $1.61 billion.

But sure, let's argue in favor of the guy trying to keep $740,000k out of the Cy Young winner's pocket.

Whose out here carrying water for the owners? I think we all agree the arbitration system is dumb and should be overhauled. It's something the MLBPA should prioritize and come up with an alternative too. But based on the MLBPAs actions they seem to be perfectly fine with arbitration

First of all, Kerb is carrying water for Mark. Very admirable.

Teams settle with individual players every single offseason. Most don't go to arbitration. Burnes won a Cy Young. Hader won the Relief Pitcher of the Year award. Those are two guys you can be flexible for. The Brewers could have done it and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Instead the team blamed Burnes for not making the playoffs and they used old social media posts against Hader.

You talk about precedent. How about the precedent that was established when Hader effectively decided he wasn't going to pitch when he didn't feel like it?

The highest bids are often the ones that go to arbitration because they are precedent setting. It's much easier to settle with a lesser player because you are talking about less $ and something that isn't going to effect every team in the same way setting a new precedent will. As Herb said, where do you draw the line? If Burnes asked for $20 million should the Brewers have given that to him? What about $25 million? This is the system we have, all 30 teams are going to try and stick together to keep players salaries lower, all the players will attempt to stick together to try and raise salaries. If the system is truly as awful as you claim then what's the alternative? Why hasn't the MLBPA proposed any sort of alternative?

[ReasonablySober]

Whose out here carrying water for the owners? I think we all agree the arbitration system is dumb and should be overhauled. It's something the MLBPA should prioritize and come up with an alternative too. But based on the MLBPAs actions they seem to be perfectly fine with arbitration

First of all, Kerb is carrying water for Mark. Very admirable.

Teams settle with individual players every single offseason. Most don't go to arbitration. Burnes won a Cy Young. Hader won the Relief Pitcher of the Year award. Those are two guys you can be flexible for. The Brewers could have done it and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Instead the team blamed Burnes for not making the playoffs and they used old social media posts against Hader.

You talk about precedent. How about the precedent that was established when Hader effectively decided he wasn't going to pitch when he didn't feel like it?

William Contreras goes to arbitration next year. He can come in asking for $30 million and say he's going to tell Curt Hogg and Buster Onley he'll be sad that Mark is cheap and he's not going to DH extra games and instead play the standard amount that most catchers do. He needs his rest.

Yes, I'm sure that's what would happen because the Brewers gave the Cy Young winner an extra 775k.

[Thunder Muscle]

I didn’t realize David Fry was a Brewers draft pick in the PTBNL deal for JC Mejia. Fry is having a really good season so far.

[Kerb Hohl]

First of all, Kerb is carrying water for Mark. Very admirable.

Teams settle with individual players every single offseason. Most don't go to arbitration. Burnes won a Cy Young. Hader won the Relief Pitcher of the Year award. Those are two guys you can be flexible for. The Brewers could have done it and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Instead the team blamed Burnes for not making the playoffs and they used old social media posts against Hader.

You talk about precedent. How about the precedent that was established when Hader effectively decided he wasn't going to pitch when he didn't feel like it?

William Contreras goes to arbitration next year. He can come in asking for $30 million and say he's going to tell Curt Hogg and Buster Onley he'll be sad that Mark is cheap and he's not going to DH extra games and instead play the standard amount that most catchers do. He needs his rest.

Yes, I'm sure that's what would happen because the Brewers gave the Cy Young winner an extra 775k.

The only people that actually care about this ones that have an agenda and are making up stuff to fit a narrative that it actually affected the team overall.

I truly do not give a flying **** if a guy that is going to make $300+ million in his career didn't get an extra million beyond the rules set by his own players union and he literally played the entire season anyways. Good on you for that. That's your thing, I guess.

I'm not tuning in to other teams and becoming a superfan because (for sake of example) the Yankees gave Juan Soto an extra $1.5 million in hopes that he signs a long-term deal with them. It's an odd way to consume sports, to be honest. Though in that case, that would be a potentially smart move because it could actually help them keep Soto.

[ReasonablySober]

Whose out here carrying water for the owners? I think we all agree the arbitration system is dumb and should be overhauled. It's something the MLBPA should prioritize and come up with an alternative too. But based on the MLBPAs actions they seem to be perfectly fine with arbitration

First of all, Kerb is carrying water for Mark. Very admirable.

Teams settle with individual players every single offseason. Most don't go to arbitration. Burnes won a Cy Young. Hader won the Relief Pitcher of the Year award. Those are two guys you can be flexible for. The Brewers could have done it and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Instead the team blamed Burnes for not making the playoffs and they used old social media posts against Hader.

You talk about precedent. How about the precedent that was established when Hader effectively decided he wasn't going to pitch when he didn't feel like it?

The highest bids are often the ones that go to arbitration because they are precedent setting. It's much easier to settle with a lesser player because yoj are talking about less $ and something that isn't going to effect every team in the same way setting a new precedent will. As Herb said, where do you draw the line? If Burnes asked for $20 million should the Brewers have given that to him? What about $25 million? This is the system we have, all 30 teams are going to try and stick together to keep players salaries lower, all the players will attempt to stick together to try and raise salaries. If the system is truly as awful as you claim then what's the alternative? Why hasn't the MLBPA proposed any sort of alternative?

You guys keep trying to argue hypotheticals. I'm arguing what actually happened.

Would a precedent be set if the Brewers gave the Cy Young winner an extra 775k to keep him happy? Sure, and who gives a sh*t? If and when the Brewers again have the best player at their position and they want $775k, they should give it to that dude too. The Brewers should be so lucky.

When Adames comes to you and wants millions more than you're offering, tell him to go win an MVP.

[Kerb Hohl]

First of all, Kerb is carrying water for Mark. Very admirable.

Teams settle with individual players every single offseason. Most don't go to arbitration. Burnes won a Cy Young. Hader won the Relief Pitcher of the Year award. Those are two guys you can be flexible for. The Brewers could have done it and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Instead the team blamed Burnes for not making the playoffs and they used old social media posts against Hader.

You talk about precedent. How about the precedent that was established when Hader effectively decided he wasn't going to pitch when he didn't feel like it?

The highest bids are often the ones that go to arbitration because they are precedent setting. It's much easier to settle with a lesser player because yoj are talking about less $ and something that isn't going to effect every team in the same way setting a new precedent will. As Herb said, where do you draw the line? If Burnes asked for $20 million should the Brewers have given that to him? What about $25 million? This is the system we have, all 30 teams are going to try and stick together to keep players salaries lower, all the players will attempt to stick together to try and raise salaries. If the system is truly as awful as you claim then what's the alternative? Why hasn't the MLBPA proposed any sort of alternative?

You guys keep trying to argue hypotheticals. I'm arguing what actually happened.

Would a precedent be set if the Brewers gave the Cy Young winner an extra 775k to keep him happy? Sure, and who gives a sh*t? If and when the Brewers again have the best player at their position and they want $775k, they should give it to that dude too. The Brewers should be so lucky.

When Adames comes to you and wants millions more than you're offering, tell him to go win an MVP.

So if Adames goes to Curt Hogg and Buster Onley that he's pissed off that he lost asking for an extra million and Mark didn't budge out of the goodness of his heart, as a player that is also integral to the team's success, you'd be carrying Mark's water?

[ReasonablySober]

The highest bids are often the ones that go to arbitration because they are precedent setting. It's much easier to settle with a lesser player because yoj are talking about less $ and something that isn't going to effect every team in the same way setting a new precedent will. As Herb said, where do you draw the line? If Burnes asked for $20 million should the Brewers have given that to him? What about $25 million? This is the system we have, all 30 teams are going to try and stick together to keep players salaries lower, all the players will attempt to stick together to try and raise salaries. If the system is truly as awful as you claim then what's the alternative? Why hasn't the MLBPA proposed any sort of alternative?

You guys keep trying to argue hypotheticals. I'm arguing what actually happened.

Would a precedent be set if the Brewers gave the Cy Young winner an extra 775k to keep him happy? Sure, and who gives a sh*t? If and when the Brewers again have the best player at their position and they want $775k, they should give it to that dude too. The Brewers should be so lucky.

When Adames comes to you and wants millions more than you're offering, tell him to go win an MVP.

So if Adames goes to Curt Hogg and Buster Onley that he's pissed off that he lost asking for an extra million, as a player that is also integral to the team's success, you'd be carrying Mark's water?

Adames never went to arbitration. The Brewers gave him money at a number he was happy with.

[Kerb Hohl]

You guys keep trying to argue hypotheticals. I'm arguing what actually happened.

Would a precedent be set if the Brewers gave the Cy Young winner an extra 775k to keep him happy? Sure, and who gives a sh*t? If and when the Brewers again have the best player at their position and they want $775k, they should give it to that dude too. The Brewers should be so lucky.

When Adames comes to you and wants millions more than you're offering, tell him to go win an MVP.

So if Adames goes to Curt Hogg and Buster Onley that he's pissed off that he lost asking for an extra million, as a player that is also integral to the team's success, you'd be carrying Mark's water?

Adames never went to arbitration. The Brewers gave him money at a number he was happy with.

Lol - dude - they gave him that number because he probably didn't ask for too much since both the teams and agents know roughly what the formula is. So he didn't ask for a higher amount, therefore the team knew they would potentially lose if they went to arbitration. The system helps the team and player land in the middle.

Burnes tried to stretch the system and lost. That's completely fine for him as a business decision. We'd not know anything about this happening to a lot more guys as I'm sure most guys keep their mouths shut in general. Players lose sometimes if they try to push the limits, teams do likewise. Sometimes it is worth the risk for either side to try.

[ReasonablySober]

So if Adames goes to Curt Hogg and Buster Onley that he's pissed off that he lost asking for an extra million, as a player that is also integral to the team's success, you'd be carrying Mark's water?

Adames never went to arbitration. The Brewers gave him money at a number he was happy with.

Lol - dude - they gave him that number because he probably didn't ask for too much since both the teams and agents know roughly what the formula is. So he didn't ask for a higher amount, therefore the team knew they would potentially lose if they went to arbitration. The system helps the team and player land in the middle.

Oh so you're saying the wildly high numbers you guys keep throwing out would never happen? That an extra $750k wouldn't break the system and lead to the downfall of the league and make all the owners poor and sad?

[Kerb Hohl]

Adames never went to arbitration. The Brewers gave him money at a number he was happy with.

Lol - dude - they gave him that number because he probably didn't ask for too much since both the teams and agents know roughly what the formula is. So he didn't ask for a higher amount, therefore the team knew they would potentially lose if they went to arbitration. The system helps the team and player land in the middle.

Oh so you're saying the wildly high numbers you guys keep throwing out would never happen? That an extra $750k wouldn't break the system and lead to the downfall of the league and make all the owners poor and sad?

An extra $750k for Burnes can inch the scales up and is potentially a reason that Adames didn't mess with it. The system is set up for either side to be fearful of having to go completely to the opposition's proposal if they take it to arbitration.

I think this argument can end because
A. I don't give a **** what Corbin Burnes nets or if he's "happy" in an interview with Curt Hogg.
B. I don't think it affected the team success or his own success. You do. Burnes was dominant in the final months of the regular season and gave up a few extra homers in the postseason. It's hard to actually quantify this, therefore we'll never agree on this.

I can't help you if you are convinced this is worth Mark's money. I 100% do not believe it was a worthwhile investment for the team and arguably can help them spend elsewhere. You do. It is what it is.

[ReasonablySober]

Lol - dude - they gave him that number because he probably didn't ask for too much since both the teams and agents know roughly what the formula is. So he didn't ask for a higher amount, therefore the team knew they would potentially lose if they went to arbitration. The system helps the team and player land in the middle.

Oh so you're saying the wildly high numbers you guys keep throwing out would never happen? That an extra $750k wouldn't break the system and lead to the downfall of the league and make all the owners poor and sad?

An extra $750k for Burnes can inch the scales up and is potentially a reason that Adames didn't mess with it.

I think this argument can end because
A. I don't give a **** what Corbin Burnes nets or if he's "happy" in an interview with Curt Hogg.
B. I don't think it affected the team success or his own success. You do. Burnes was dominant in the final months of the regular season and gave up a few extra homers in the postseason. It's hard to actually quantify this, therefore we'll never agree on this.

Now do Hader.

[MVP2110]

First of all, Kerb is carrying water for Mark. Very admirable.

Teams settle with individual players every single offseason. Most don't go to arbitration. Burnes won a Cy Young. Hader won the Relief Pitcher of the Year award. Those are two guys you can be flexible for. The Brewers could have done it and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Instead the team blamed Burnes for not making the playoffs and they used old social media posts against Hader.

You talk about precedent. How about the precedent that was established when Hader effectively decided he wasn't going to pitch when he didn't feel like it?

The highest bids are often the ones that go to arbitration because they are precedent setting. It's much easier to settle with a lesser player because yoj are talking about less $ and something that isn't going to effect every team in the same way setting a new precedent will. As Herb said, where do you draw the line? If Burnes asked for $20 million should the Brewers have given that to him? What about $25 million? This is the system we have, all 30 teams are going to try and stick together to keep players salaries lower, all the players will attempt to stick together to try and raise salaries. If the system is truly as awful as you claim then what's the alternative? Why hasn't the MLBPA proposed any sort of alternative?

You guys keep trying to argue hypotheticals. I'm arguing what actually happened.

Would a precedent be set if the Brewers gave the Cy Young winner an extra 775k to keep him happy? Sure, and who gives a sh*t? If and when the Brewers again have the best player at their position and they want $775k, they should give it to that dude too. The Brewers should be so lucky.

When Adames comes to you and wants millions more than you're offering, tell him to go win an MVP.

You either aren't understanding or don't care about the actual system that's in place. You keep looking at this as a singular case. Looking at this as a binary that misses crucial context about why each side did what they did. It's easy to blame either the org or the player for getting upset over such a trivial amount of $ in the grand schemes of an MLB payroll but that's because it isn't trivial when you factor in the context and compounding precedents(You'rea smart person, I'm sure you understand compounding interest when it comes to saving $, this is very similar). You seem to hate the current system because it leads to teams and players fighting over thousands of dollars but I have yet to see you propose any sort of alternative or solution. You also haven't answered why the MLBPA hasn't proposed any alternatives but owners have? Maybe it's because the MLBPA actually likes the current system.