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Braun to admit to PED use on 8/19

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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#121 » by paulpressey25 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:14 am

humanrefutation wrote:
Exactly. The MLB's **** process has nothing to do with Braun's chicken **** way of handling the situation.


Agreed. The concept of Braun being morally bankrupt and MLB being completely hypocritical in making millions off these PED users with a half ass phony drug testing scheme do not need to be mutually exclusive concepts.

We've got a lot of other issues here to sort out though.

a) How good was Braun on PED's and how will he be off PED's. It is a $120 million dollar question for the Brewer franchise.

b) Do the Milwaukee fans welcome him back and forgive and forget? I think there is a large segment of Brewer fans that won't. More so than in say larger coastal markets. If the Brewers suck the next couple years and the attendance drops back to 2 million, this might be the jump the shark moment.

c) Do a bunch of other guys get nailed in the next week, thus swinging the spotlight off Braun and onto MLB?
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#122 » by Kerb Hohl » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:34 am

humanrefutation wrote:Well Simmons touched on it in the article I referenced earlier in this thread. Unless you test everyone every day, it's virtually impossible to eliminate PEDs because the regimens right now can have the drugs leaving the system within a few hours of use.


Set extremely harsh penalties if that's what you want to do and you'll get close.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#123 » by sneakerdust » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:01 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:No arguments that Braun shouldn't have gotten off last year. Chain of custody was broken.

Completely different issue though from one of personal integrity. Braun has none. He could have easily said that he believed the chain of custody was at issue and it may have resulted in a false positive. My lawyers are looking into it. And he could still then win his appeal. End of story.

Instead he took it further. A lot further.

Why is Braun such a villain? Because after getting a reprieve last year that it’s now pretty obvious he didn’t deserve, he had the gall to smear the lowest man on the baseball org chart to make himself look a teeny-tiny bit better. In February 2012, after he successfully appealed a 50-game drug suspension, the 2011 MVP smarmed his way through a victory press conference, whining that he’d been wrongfully accused and that the whole process had been so very hard on him. He also attacked the integrity of Dino Laurenzi Jr., the man who’d collected his urine sample. "There were a lot of things that we learned about the collector, about the collection process, about the way that the entire thing worked that made us very concerned and very suspicious about what could have actually happened," he said, citing nothing at all to support his claims. “We spoke to biochemists and scientists, and asked them how difficult it would be for someone to taint the sample. They said, if they were motivated, it would be extremely easy.” At the same time, Braun praised his own moral rectitude, saying, “I will continue to take the high road. We won because the truth was on my side.”


I can post the email Passan and other reporters got from Braun's camp that he printed in his story today but I think you guys have all read it. That was a lot worse. Basically said "Dino did it"

Braun took the leap from "bad custody procedure, something could have gone wrong" to "focus your attention on this punk, he had motive and resources to spike my test".

Doesn't mean he shouldn't have won his case last year. Just means he's a moral scumbag.


I see nothing at all wrong with the above defense which was no doubt constructed by Braun's lawyers. The problem I see is MLB and an MLB employee violating process which not only put one particular sample at risk, but put an entire entity and those associated at risk. Braun's team was pointing out just exactly why in explicit terms that the violation of the process necessitated the fact that these samples had to be thrown out. They did nothing wrong.

MLB and its employees negligent , and in terms of secrecy, its intentional violation of the process is a much bigger deal than one player spreading some cream. But maybe you don't like a system in which procedure isnt procedure for its own sake, but guarantees faith and confidence in the system. Drunk cop body cavity searches FTW. Maybe you like that kinda thing :D

Braun could have stopped alot of things by not doing something. So could any illegal drug dealer/user. That doesnt give contracted or government enforcement carte blanche to rewrite their own agreements (contracts, laws, constitutions) in their lust to catch them. That is a much worse offense and lack of integrity than any single offense, especially in this case a nonviolent one.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#124 » by sneakerdust » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:43 pm

What this discussion is doing is making me think different about the issue. As sports is a reflection of society, it seems an increasing number of people are willing to throw away privacy and process because of convenience and security.

I'm leaning towards supporting no restrictions on PED use. Why should we have a system where these witch hunts are encouraged for the fantasy of keeping a sport clean? If people are too stupid to risk their health in pursuit of a buck so what?

I dont like the fact that it sets a bad example for youth or that the game isnt as "fair" as it could be. But so what? Leave the first to parenting/Darwin, and maybe MLB can come up with a hard salary cap before it sells its game on the basis of fairness.

Its not a perfect solution but one evil is starting to outweigh the other. Perhaps a testing hybrid for obvious blowup your head full of acne use vs. subtle use for recovery from injury.

Besides all this crowing about fairness and integrity is coming from the mouth of so called journalists whose profession increasingly has little of either. They type in big font and correct in small font if ever. Their sensationalized voices are the last one that should influence thinking on the subject.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#125 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:35 pm

Details about what OTL believes Braun did (from the JS):

So, OTL's sources tell them that Braun began his relationship with Bosch in the summmer of 2011. It was in October of that year, at the start of the playoffs, that Braun tested positive for elevated levels of synthetic testosterone. He had that drug test overturned on appeal on a chain-of-custody issue that MLB considered a technicality.

While stopping short of saying the evidence showed Braun bought synthetic testosterone from Bosch, Quinn supplied a copy of a Biogenesis document that he says sources indicate was written by Bosch for "PEDs for clients like Braun and A-Rod." A-Rod, of course, is New York Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez.

Testosterone troches are lozenges that you can place under your tongue to induce synthetic testosterone into your system. The document produced by OTL goes to the detail of saying they were "mint or cherry-favored."

Troches are but one way to elevate your testosterone levels without receiving an injection. You can also apply synthetic testosterone topically with creams and gels applied to your skin. With these methods, the synthetic testosterone can cycle in and out of your body quickly, meaning a drug test likely would have to be taken very soon to be detected.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#126 » by CaptainAwesome » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:26 pm

Sounds far less sophisticated than Quinn was making this out to be.

Bosch was running something pretty pedestrian and not well hidden given those caught previously. Will Carroll points this out on Twitter.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#127 » by ibanezjp » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:31 pm

Thanks guys for providing that info. It will be very interesting to see how he does next year and if he can really change who he is as a person so he can start playing without this stuff and without the attitude. If he's hearing even half the stuff that the media is blasting him with that should be enough to make him think about some serious character changes in his life moving forward. He's pretty much been exposed as a "cockroach" like Passan said who only cares about his own image and not about who he tramples along the way be that his teammates trust, Dino's life, his friendship with Rodgers, his own credibility, and the mostly the fans. I think a person can change though and with the giant **** storm from everybody that's been coming his way the last 2 days that's enough to almost work as an intervention for him.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#128 » by sneakerdust » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:47 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:Details about what OTL believes Braun did (from the JS):

So, OTL's sources tell them that Braun began his relationship with Bosch in the summmer of 2011. It was in October of that year, at the start of the playoffs, that Braun tested positive for elevated levels of synthetic testosterone. He had that drug test overturned on appeal on a chain-of-custody issue that MLB considered a technicality.

While stopping short of saying the evidence showed Braun bought synthetic testosterone from Bosch, Quinn supplied a copy of a Biogenesis document that he says sources indicate was written by Bosch for "PEDs for clients like Braun and A-Rod." A-Rod, of course, is New York Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez.

Testosterone troches are lozenges that you can place under your tongue to induce synthetic testosterone into your system. The document produced by OTL goes to the detail of saying they were "mint or cherry-favored."

Troches are but one way to elevate your testosterone levels without receiving an injection. You can also apply synthetic testosterone topically with creams and gels applied to your skin. With these methods, the synthetic testosterone can cycle in and out of your body quickly, meaning a drug test likely would have to be taken very soon to be detected.


Shoot, coulda had the "Hey, Barry the mint or the cherry" chant

Technology is so damn slow.

Now stuck with "Ricola!" or "No Halls for you!" shouts next year. Lame.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#129 » by Captain Erv » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:28 pm

Something to consider, did Braun sign his long contract extension in 2011 because he knew he was getting into this stuff with potential ramifications?
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#130 » by luss54321 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:47 pm

If you told me Ryan Braun would hit .400 with 60 home runs next year, I wouldn't trade a bag of peanuts for him… I just can't root for a lying, cheating, sociopathic, narcissistic scumbag. You know what the real problem is? Fans who support PED users. Show some integrity. Jesus.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#131 » by MickeyDavis » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:54 pm

I know he's guilty but it seems kind of odd to suspend these players based on handwritten notes of a guy like Bosch. Maybe there's more "evidence", I don't know. But hell, if this is all they have it would be very easy to get players suspended by writing their names down with a notation that they bought PED's.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#132 » by humanrefutation » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:57 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:I know he's guilty but it seems kind of odd to suspend these players based on handwritten notes of a guy like Bosch. Maybe there's more "evidence", I don't know. But hell, if this is all they have it would be very easy to get players suspended by writing their names down with a notation that they bought PED's.


Something tells me that they must have had more from Bosch. The fact that Braun requested a second meeting with the MLB after hearing their evidence in the first one makes me think that he knew he was eventually going down one way or another.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#133 » by Siefer » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:59 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:I know he's guilty but it seems kind of odd to suspend these players based on handwritten notes of a guy like Bosch. Maybe there's more "evidence", I don't know. But hell, if this is all they have it would be very easy to get players suspended by writing their names down with a notation that they bought PED's.


I have to think that the MLB put together more of a case than that given that Braun inevitably sought a deal.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#134 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:00 pm

luss54321 wrote:If you told me Ryan Braun would hit .400 with 60 home runs next year, I wouldn't trade a bag of peanuts for him… I just can't root for a lying, cheating, sociopathic, narcissistic scumbag. You know what the real problem is? Fans who support PED users. Show some integrity. Jesus.


I think PEDs should be legal.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#135 » by Newz » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:16 pm

People have really changed their tune now that one of their guys came out and admitted that he did it.

Funny how that works.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#136 » by trwi7 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:20 pm

I think they should too but he's really stupid if he started in the summer of 2011. It obviously wasn't because of performance so he probably took them for a nagging injury. The monster.

Of course he never would've had to lie if ESPN hadn't broken the story that was supposed to be confidential on how Braun failed the test.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#137 » by Siefer » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:28 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
luss54321 wrote:If you told me Ryan Braun would hit .400 with 60 home runs next year, I wouldn't trade a bag of peanuts for him… I just can't root for a lying, cheating, sociopathic, narcissistic scumbag. You know what the real problem is? Fans who support PED users. Show some integrity. Jesus.


I think PEDs should be legal.


Yep. Restrict and regulate them, but make them legal at the professional level. Yes, drugs have side-effects (stun), but a fair number of them offer huge benefits with comparably small side-effects when used properly.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#138 » by ReasonablySober » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:46 pm

Newz wrote:People have really changed their tune now that one of their guys came out and admitted that he did it.

Funny how that works.


I used to be in favor of lifetime bans. But I've become more disillusioned with the notion of clean sports, clean records, etc. I started reading smart writers who convinced me that MLB is doing more harm than good.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#139 » by Newz » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:49 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
Newz wrote:People have really changed their tune now that one of their guys came out and admitted that he did it.

Funny how that works.


I used to be in favor of lifetime bans. But I've become more disillusioned with the notion of clean sports, clean records, etc. I started reading smart writers who convinced me that MLB is doing more harm than good.


Not just saying you.

When I first heard about Braun testing positive, I just assumed he was on them... as I would assume any professional athlete is on them. That isn't to say all of them are, but I think it's just naive to believe that a lot of them aren't.

When I said that most people ripped me and claimed Braun was clean, that there is no way he'd cheat, etc. Now all of the sudden most people "don't care" about him using PEDs anymore, a lot of people want them to be legal, etc.
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Re: Braun suspended for the remainder of the season 

Post#140 » by Kerb Hohl » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:12 pm

trwi7 wrote:I think they should too but he's really stupid if he started in the summer of 2011. It obviously wasn't because of performance so he probably took them for a nagging injury. The monster.

Of course he never would've had to lie if ESPN hadn't broken the story that was supposed to be confidential on how Braun failed the test.


What evidence is there that he started just then? I saw the JSOnline blog thing mentioning that the report is he met Bosch in October 2011. If that's the story, then that's the story, I guess. However, it always seems that when someone is caught, they started "just before you caught me."

Now this is the song you are singing. That he used it a few times for recovery just before he was caught. Before that you believed the story about consulting. What's next?

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