Offseason 2016/17 Thread - Scooter Cut

[coolhandluke121]

How would some of our best pitching prospects compare to Yovani before he came to the majors? Not necessarily in terms of style or pitches, but rather impact.

Diplan is the closest comparison so far, though he's still very young.

So you're saying guys like Hader and Ortiz would be rated higher than Yovani was? I didn't follow the farm system much back in those days.

[ReasonablySober]

How would some of our best pitching prospects compare to Yovani before he came to the majors? Not necessarily in terms of style or pitches, but rather impact.

Diplan is the closest comparison so far, though he's still very young.

So you're saying guys like Hader and Ortiz would be rated higher than Yovani was? I didn't follow the farm system much back in those days.

Yup.

ETA: Looked it up and Gallardo was BA's #16 prospect at one point, so I guess I was wrong. I remember the Brewers being very hyped about him, but I don't remember him being a nationally hyped prospect.

[coolhandluke121]

The reason I ask because I think Yovani is a pretty good benchmark for what constitutes an adequate 1b starter on a playoff team. Obviously that would have to be a team built around elite offense if he's one of your "aces", but the Brewers should have that. If none of the prospects turn out to be as good as him though, we will have problems.

[Outlander]

Yovani was every bit as hyped as Hader is now just that the Brewers already had superstars like Fielder and Braun on the team that had already given fans some hope the Brewers would be good again soon. Going back even farther I think Sheets was thought of even higher and a possible true ace pitcher and he actually did pitch like an ace at times but the teams were so horrible it didn't matter. So I would put Hader at Yovani level but not Sheets level if you are looking for a benchmark.

[El Duderino]

That is great because you can package some of those second tier guys to get a Grienke. Gives you lots of options because you just need one team with an ace that is looking to rebuild or realizes they won't be able to afford the extension and would jump all over a trade with a quantity of high quality prospects.

I don't think an ace is absolutely necessary anymore to reach the World Series.

The Royals made it in back to back years, winning it all once without an ace. Corey Kluber who was so great for Cleveland wasn't viewed as a special prospect in the minors. On the flip side, multiple teams with an ace or even two of them don't make it.

The game has changed because of how teams use bullpens today. If a team has an upper tier bullpen, a solid overall rotation can be enough to reach the World Series. Just getting to the playoffs is the biggest key.

With days off in the playoffs and managers not needing anymore to be as careful about overusing their pen like so during a regular season, teams with a deep and great pen just need 5 to 6 solid innings at most from a starter.

Obviously it would be better to have an ace to go with solid other starters, but if say you have two lower 3 ERA starters to go with a few more competent starters to mix with a quality bullpen, your team can reach the playoffs and then things are up for grabs. Don't have to be a 100 plus win team to advance.

[wichmae]

How would some of our best pitching prospects compare to Yovani before he came to the majors? Not necessarily in terms of style or pitches, but rather impact.

Impact by being a legit RH#2? or you mean in terms of stuff? Stuff wise DB has it with Diplan. Woodruff is the closest righty to MLB with Lopez right behind him. The rest of the guys are a little ways away. If your looking for the guy who ahs the potential in the system to be an ace it would probably be Cody Ponce or Kirby if he bounces back to pre TJ form. Kirby was once considered in contention for top overall pick until the lat and forearm injuries in college. The bulk of our pitching talent in the system is at the high A and AA level.

[wichmae]

That is great because you can package some of those second tier guys to get a Grienke. Gives you lots of options because you just need one team with an ace that is looking to rebuild or realizes they won't be able to afford the extension and would jump all over a trade with a quantity of high quality prospects.

I don't think an ace is absolutely necessary anymore to reach the World Series.

The Royals made it in back to back years, winning it all once without an ace. Corey Kluber who was so great for Cleveland wasn't viewed as a special prospect in the minors. On the flip side, multiple teams with an ace or even two of them don't make it.

The game has changed because of how teams use bullpens today. If a team has an upper tier bullpen, a solid overall rotation can be enough to reach the World Series. Just getting to the playoffs is the biggest key.

With days off in the playoffs and managers not needing anymore to be as careful about overusing their pen like so during a regular season, teams with a deep and great pen just need 5 to 6 solid innings at most from a starter.

Obviously it would be better to have an ace to go with solid other starters, but if say you have two lower 3 ERA starters to go with a few more competent starters to mix with a quality bullpen, your team can reach the playoffs and then things are up for grabs. Don't have to be a 100 plus win team to advance.

Yeah this is a great point. I do kind of need a horse to get you 4-5 innings with one run or less and a 1B starter can do that. YOure right you definitely dont need an ace. You just need a solid offense that makes contact three solid starters and have that lights out pen. The pen has almost become more important than the ace.

[wichmae]

Diplan is the closest comparison so far, though he's still very young.

So you're saying guys like Hader and Ortiz would be rated higher than Yovani was? I didn't follow the farm system much back in those days.

Yup.

ETA: Looked it up and Gallardo was BA's #16 prospect at one point, so I guess I was wrong. I remember the Brewers being very hyped about him, but I don't remember him being a nationally hyped prospect.

Yeah Yovani was a big time prospect and truthfully in hindsight I think he didnt live up to the prospect billing he had. Most of Yovanni's issues were off the field distractions. Theres a poster here that had to deal with Yovanni's constant issues while being employed by the Brewers.

[coolhandluke121]

How would some of our best pitching prospects compare to Yovani before he came to the majors? Not necessarily in terms of style or pitches, but rather impact.

Impact by being a legit RH#2? or you mean in terms of stuff? Stuff wise DB has it with Diplan. Woodruff is the closest righty to MLB with Lopez right behind him. The rest of the guys are a little ways away. If your looking for the guy who ahs the potential in the system to be an ace it would probably be Cody Ponce or Kirby if he bounces back to pre TJ form. Kirby was once considered in contention for top overall pick until the lat and forearm injuries in college. The bulk of our pitching talent in the system is at the high A and AA level.

Impact. It doesn't sound like we have anyone who's likely to be rated as highly as Yovani, let alone Sheets. But I agree with Dude that bullpens matter more now. A bullpen gets roughly as many innings as two starters. You just need to maximize quality innings instead of worrying too much about aces and closers.

[wichmae]

How would some of our best pitching prospects compare to Yovani before he came to the majors? Not necessarily in terms of style or pitches, but rather impact.

Impact by being a legit RH#2? or you mean in terms of stuff? Stuff wise DB has it with Diplan. Woodruff is the closest righty to MLB with Lopez right behind him. The rest of the guys are a little ways away. If your looking for the guy who ahs the potential in the system to be an ace it would probably be Cody Ponce or Kirby if he bounces back to pre TJ form. Kirby was once considered in contention for top overall pick until the lat and forearm injuries in college. The bulk of our pitching talent in the system is at the high A and AA level.

Impact. It doesn't sound like we have anyone who's likely to be rated as highly as Yovani, let alone Sheets. But I agree with Dude that bullpens matter more now. A bullpen gets roughly as many innings as two starters. You just need to maximize quality innings instead of worrying too much about aces and closers.

Like I said though above. Guys can be highly rated and never really get it in the majors and vice versa. Look at the case of Giolito versus Davies. While Giolito has better stuff and projectability hes gotten hit and hit hard. Davies on the other hand has pitched quite well. Sometimes ranking themselves can be a little over blown. For instance theres no way I think Medieros is a better prospect than Nathan Kirby. These things are kind of arbitrary. We do have impact arms in the system and quite a few of them. No we probably dont have a true front line guy. This upcomiing draft can however kind of chage that if a guy slips or needs shake out differently ahead of us. There are a true big 4 for the college pitchers and all 4 could be front line guys. Theres also about 10 other college guys who could easily be high level MLB starters. This next draft is light years better than the last one.

[M-C-G]

Impact by being a legit RH#2? or you mean in terms of stuff? Stuff wise DB has it with Diplan. Woodruff is the closest righty to MLB with Lopez right behind him. The rest of the guys are a little ways away. If your looking for the guy who ahs the potential in the system to be an ace it would probably be Cody Ponce or Kirby if he bounces back to pre TJ form. Kirby was once considered in contention for top overall pick until the lat and forearm injuries in college. The bulk of our pitching talent in the system is at the high A and AA level.

Impact. It doesn't sound like we have anyone who's likely to be rated as highly as Yovani, let alone Sheets. But I agree with Dude that bullpens matter more now. A bullpen gets roughly as many innings as two starters. You just need to maximize quality innings instead of worrying too much about aces and closers.

Like I said though above. Guys can be highly rated and never really get it in the majors and vice versa. Look at the case of Giolito versus Davies. While Giolito has better stuff and projectability hes gotten hit and hit hard. Davies on the other hand has pitched quite well. Sometimes ranking themselves can be a little over blown. For instance theres no way I think Medieros is a better prospect than Nathan Kirby. These things are kind of arbitrary. We do have impact arms in the system and quite a few of them. No we probably dont have a true front line guy. This upcomiing draft can however kind of chage that if a guy slips or needs shake out differently ahead of us. There are a true big 4 for the college pitchers and all 4 could be front line guys. Theres also about 10 other college guys who could easily be high level MLB starters. This next draft is light years better than the last one.

I would say I have been pretty impressed with Stearns ability to find bullpen arms. So that bodes well, although bullpen guys are notoriously up and down.

[coolhandluke121]

Like I said though above. Guys can be highly rated and never really get it in the majors and vice versa. Look at the case of Giolito versus Davies. While Giolito has better stuff and projectability hes gotten hit and hit hard. Davies on the other hand has pitched quite well. Sometimes ranking themselves can be a little over blown. For instance theres no way I think Medieros is a better prospect than Nathan Kirby. These things are kind of arbitrary. We do have impact arms in the system and quite a few of them. No we probably dont have a true front line guy. This upcomiing draft can however kind of chage that if a guy slips or needs shake out differently ahead of us. There are a true big 4 for the college pitchers and all 4 could be front line guys. Theres also about 10 other college guys who could easily be high level MLB starters. This next draft is light years better than the last one.

I think it's all about depth. If you get enough quality prospects, odds are good that a few will exceed expectations and be front-end rotation guys on a playoff team. Even though there's not any one pitcher who has, say, better than a 50% chance of being a peak Yovani-level pitcher, there's better than a 50% chance that someone will be that guy. We just don't know who.

I figure Sheets was on a whole different level. There was no way he wouldn't be elite if he stayed healthy.

[wichmae]

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[El Duderino]

Impact. It doesn't sound like we have anyone who's likely to be rated as highly as Yovani, let alone Sheets. But I agree with Dude that bullpens matter more now. A bullpen gets roughly as many innings as two starters. You just need to maximize quality innings instead of worrying too much about aces and closers.

While i do believe the bullpen in today's baseball is at least equal to starters in importance when it comes to the playoffs, it's during the regular season where a rotation matters more. Gotta make the playoffs first to advance in them and it is hard to make the playoffs without at least a pretty good rotation given they do pitch the bulk of the innings for a pitching staff.

When a rotation is below average, they not only give up to many runs over a lot of innings, they can burn out a quality bullpen by forcing them to pitch to many innings over a grueling 162 game schedule.

That's why pitching depth is so important for any organization. Many fans focus so much on having an ace, but given most teams over 162 games will end up using 7-8-9 or more starters because of various degrees of injury to starters, those teams who lack depth in the minors tend to pay a price when injuries do hit and they only have scrubs to call up.

[El Duderino]

Like I said though above. Guys can be highly rated and never really get it in the majors and vice versa. Look at the case of Giolito versus Davies. While Giolito has better stuff and projectability hes gotten hit and hit hard. Davies on the other hand has pitched quite well. Sometimes ranking themselves can be a little over blown. For instance theres no way I think Medieros is a better prospect than Nathan Kirby. These things are kind of arbitrary. We do have impact arms in the system and quite a few of them. No we probably dont have a true front line guy. This upcomiing draft can however kind of chage that if a guy slips or needs shake out differently ahead of us. There are a true big 4 for the college pitchers and all 4 could be front line guys. Theres also about 10 other college guys who could easily be high level MLB starters. This next draft is light years better than the last one.

Yea, pitching is so volatile and unpredictable, even more so when you factor in the injury factor being higher compared to position players.

Look at the Cubs for example. While Theo obviously has done an amazing job, i think even he would admit that he never could have envisioned Kyle Hendricks becoming a CY Young caliber pitcher or when he traded for Arrieta, that Arrieta would in a blink go from being a 5 ERA scrub starter with Baltimore to top 5 in the NL. Or Toronto getting great pitching last year out of JA Happ and Marco Estrada as their number 1/2 starters.

Good general managers can use scouting and analytics sometimes to find under-valued pitching, but they also can be lucky to a degree in liking a pitcher or pitchers who may have struggled elsewhere and then picking up the guy on the cheap, then to see him pitch far better than ever could have really imagined.

[wichmae]

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[WeekapaugGroove]

Its only a small sample size and spring training but man its hard not to be excited about how well the young guys have performed so far.

Its pretty amazing how much tallent they have added to the organization the past 18 months.

I haven't been tracking the guys they were supposed to get from Cleveland but the brewers might have caught a break with lucroy backing out of that trade because brinson looks a the real deal blue chip dude and ortiz and cordell arent bad secondary pieces.

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[ReasonablySober]

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Glowing scouting report from the same guy.

Starting to think my prediction will look less foolish.

[ReasonablySober]

Interesting article on Broxton, Santana, and their exit velocity.

Knowing the league and himself better will allow him to better anticipate pitches, he feels, and the data backs him up. Hitters swing less as they age in general. “You get more selective. That just comes off of knowing what pitches you can handle and which ones you cannot handle,” Broxton agreed. “When I first came up, I was chasing balls I couldn’t do much with. I could get a piece of wood on it, but I wasn’t going to get a hit. Now I’m looking over the heart of the plate and looking for mistakes.”

The good news for these Brewers is that there’s no other duo in baseball that averages as high an exit velocity as the two outfielders in Miller Park. In order to take better advantage of that shared tool, both outfielders are working on tweaking their launch angles and making more contact. It’s not all about exit velocity, of course.

I have no idea what the Brewers are gonna do with the surplus of talent they have in the outfield. It's nuts.

[ReasonablySober]

TV Today.

CF - Broxton
1B - Thames
LF - Braun
3B - Shaw
RF - Santana
DH - Aguilar
C - Bandy
SS - Sogard
2B - Rivera
P - Garza