Milwaukee Brewers @ Texas Rangers, 6/8/07, 7:35 PM

[trwi7]

This is probably a bad move considering I didn't want have a Gwynn vs Hart debate, but it does feed into my original reason for posting on this thread, and that was because I saw you making a vehement argument for something that was so blatantly in opposition to the facts you were using to support it that it was borderline ridiculous. This is not true to the same degree that it was in the Gwynn/Gross debate, but it is a fallacy of same category, so I can't help but mention it. You said this-

Last point.

Corey Hart vs righties- .288/.356/.413/.769 so why exactly should Gwynn start over Hart against righties?

You have his stats right, but now lets put them side by side with Gwynn's stats against righties-
Hart- .288/.356/.413/.756
Gwynn- .294/.368/.353/.721

So this season against righties Gwynn has been better hitter than Hart by 8 points, better than Hart at getting on base by twelve points, has put up a lower slugging % by 50 points, and has a lower OPS by 34 points (which is, after all, based SLG/OBP so it makes sense that it is also higher for Hart who had a bigger lead in SLG than Gwynn had in OBP).

And yet you have the gall to demand that I explain to you why Gwynn should start over Hart against righties? Couldn't I be asking you that very question in reverse? Remember, we are talking about leading off, where the ability to get on base (combined with quickness, which might be a wash when comparing these two on account of the 6'5'' Hart's improbable speed) is more important than the ability to hit for power (and there is not nearly as big a difference in power between these two when you just compare their slugging against righties).

Like I said, I don't think I can win a debate when it comes to who the better player is if I have to argue for Gwynn over Hart. Maybe that will change when Gwynn starts to get some significant playing time, but I can't right now. But if you try and act like I am obviously wrong -such as in this case of who the better hitter is against righties- when the facts don't justify your level of assurance, I won't hesitate to call you out.

The numbers between BA and OBP are miniscule compared to the big advantage that Hart has. I still think Gwynn should be getting consistent playing time in the minors so we can get a better indication on what his ceiling is and what he needs to improve on. Unfortunately that won't happen because for some unknown reason Yost has a boner for having 6 outfielder.

Oh wait I think that last part should go in the Yost thread.

[whatthe_buck!?]

The numbers between BA and OBP are miniscule compared to the big advantage that Hart has.

Not sure if you're joking, so if you are, I apologize. But if you're serious, I would like to know what in the heck you mean by "big advantage".

It's not in their defense- both guys are above average fielders.
It's not in their quickness- both guys are well above average in speed.
It's not in their hitting- both guys hit for the same average.
It's not in their OBP- they both get on base at the some clip.
It's not in their slugging- Hart's is much better against lefties and slightly better against righties, but we are talking about leading off against righties, which makes this slight advantage practically moot.
It's not in their baseball instincts- in fact, this one might go to Gwynn, being as he was the son of a Hall a Famer.
It is not in their sanity/disruptiveness in the clubhouse- neither guy is a head case.

What the hell else is there?

Do you mean that his advantage literally lies is his being so big? He takes this category, but this isn't basketball.
Does his advantage lie in his greater facial hair? Hart takes this one as well, but unfortunately for Mo Williams, hairiness does not a better athlete make.
Does his advantage lie in his goofylookingness? If so, chalk another one up for Hart.
Does his advantage lie in the lightness of his skin? If so, that makes you a racist (settle down, it's a joke)
I think I've covered just about everything, and I'm more confused than ever. That is unless you were joking.

[trwi7]

The numbers between BA and OBP are miniscule compared to the big advantage that Hart has.

Not sure if you're joking, so if you are, I apologize. But if you're serious, I would like to know what in the heck you mean by "big advantage".

It's not in their defense- both guys are above average fielders.
It's not in their quickness- both guys are well above average in speed.
It's not in their hitting- both guys hit for the same average.
It's not in their OBP- they both get on base at the some clip.
It's not in their slugging- Hart's is much better against lefties and slightly better against righties, but we are talking about leading off against righties, which makes this slight advantage practically moot.
It's not in their baseball instincts- in fact, this one might go to Gwynn, being as he was the son of a Hall a Famer.
It is not in their sanity/disruptiveness in the clubhouse- neither guy is a head case.

What the hell else is there?

Do you mean that his advantage literally lies is his being so big? He takes this category, but this isn't basketball.
Does his advantage lie in his greater facial hair? Hart takes this one as well, but unfortunately for Mo Williams, hairiness does not a better athlete make.
Does his advantage lie in his goofylookingness? If so, chalk another one up for Hart.
Does his advantage lie in his lie in the lightness of his skin? If so, that makes you a racist (settle down, it's a joke)
I think I've covered just about everything, and I'm more confused than ever. That is unless you were joking.

Oops I meant big advantage in slugging%. I was rushed damnit!

[whatthe_buck!?]

Oops I meant big advantage in slugging%.

Ok, but as I've said before, that is not true in what we are talking about; namely their ability to hit righties leading off. There is no "big advantage", and the small advantage that does exist is almost completely irrelevant to what we are discussing (leading off), as I'm sure you well understand, but which you refuse to admit.

[trwi7]

Oops I meant big advantage in slugging%.

Ok, but as I've said before, that is not true in what we are talking about; namely their ability to hit righties leading off. There is no "big advantage", and the small advantage that does exist is almost completely irrelevant to what we are discussing.

But I still think that Hart should play everyday. We can't have like 4 platoons going over. We need some consistency especially when the numbers of the platoon of Gwynn and Hart are miniscule in their difference.

Now if we could make a trade to clear the outfield a little then we could do a better job of platooning which leads back to Ned and his boner for 6 outfielders for God know what reason.

[whatthe_buck!?]

But I still think that Hart should play everyday. We can't have like 4 platoons going over. We need some consistency especially when the numbers of the platoon of Gwynn and Hart are miniscule in their difference.

In the immortal words of the great Michael Corleone "Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in"

That is exactly how I feel with this thread.

This is also why I didn't want get involved.

This is why I should have left you in your self-fabricated delusion that Tony Gwynn Jr. shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the incomparable Gabe Gross let alone with the Demi-god who goes by the name of Corey Hart.

I am being punished because you have poor reading comprehension and/or retention (maybe it's wrong for me to assume you have read my posts), and this is the last time I will try to explain myself to you.

I NEVER WANTED TO TURN THIS THREAD INTO HART VS GWYNN.

EVEN IF YOU WANT TO TURN THIS INTO A DISCUSSION OF MY SOMEWHAT OFFHAND SUGGESTION OF A HART/GWYNN LEADOFF PLATOON, THAT DISCUSSION WOULD STILL NOT INVOLVE A HART VS GWYNN ISSUE.

LET ME RE-REPOST WHAT I TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO YOU TWICE BEFORE-

And to your point that a leadoff platoon of Gwynn and Hart is a terrible idea because it would cut down on the playing time of Hart I would say to you that you are simply stuck in the Yost mindset; there seems to me to be no good reason why, in games when we are facing a righty and thus Gwynn would be leading off, you couldn't start Hart as well. That is to say only if he was swinging a hot enough bat to justify sitting Mench, but he has been, so that wouldn't be an issue. Like the idea better now?

What this means, in english, is that the idea of a leadoff platoon using gwynn/hart, and the idea of starting hart everyday are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

Even if they were mutually exclusive, which they aren't, you have mentioned that a big reason that you oppose such an arrangement is that you are concerned about what it would mean in regard to the development of Hart. If you are concerned about Hart's development, why is it that you seem to have no regard for the development of Gwynn? Gwynn is a year younger than Hart! AND HE IS A LEFTHANDED LEADOFF HITTER! In case you were wondering, that is a very rare commodity in baseball, and that means there will also be a greater payoff if he is developed.

Hart, on the other hand, is a potential five tool player who lack lacks the hitting power to realize that potential. Guys like that are a dime a dozen compared to lefthanded leadoff guys. What Hart needs for his development more than playing time is to hit the weight room. Gwynn just needs major league at bats, and lots of them.

This will be my last post on the subject because, in the immortal words of the great George Costanza, "GEORGE IS GETTIN' UPSET".

[trwi7]

What this means, in english, is that the idea of a leadoff platoon using gwynn/hart, and the idea of starting hart everyday are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

So who do you take out? If Hart plays everyday and Gwynn plays against right handers who do you take out? Hall or Jenkins? Hall's not going back to the infield, you can't have 4 outfielders playing so what do you do?

why is it that you seem to have no regard for the development of Gwynn?

Where did I EVER say that? I said from the beginning of the season he should be getting everyday playing time in Nashville, see how he does there and then bring him up next year when Jenkins and most likely Mench are gone.

AND HE IS A LEFTHANDED LEADOFF HITTER! In case you were wondering, that is a very rare commodity in baseball, and that means there will also be a greater payoff if he is developed.

What?

Kelly Johnson
Jose Reyes
Jimmy Rollins
Rafael Furcal
Juan Pierre
Stephen Drew
Kenny Lofton
Ichiro
Luis Castillo
David DeJesus
Curtis Granderson
Grady Sizemore

etc...

How is that rare? And sorry I'm not a huge fan of slap singles hitters who haven't shown a great ability to get on base. In case you're wondering Rickie Weeks had the same OBP in the majors last year as Gwynn had in the minors.

See that's my main problem with Gwynn. If he hit for a little power I'd be fine with a .360 OBP, if he hit for an OBP of .390 or so I'd be fine but he doesn't do either.

Guys like that are a dime a dozen compared to lefthanded leadoff guys.

Funny because I just named a bunch of left handed leadoff guys. No I'll take the guy who can steal bases, hit for average, get on base, hit for power and plays great defense over a slap hitting leadoff hitter that hasn't even gotten on base at a .350 clip in the minors.

What Hart needs for his development more than playing time is to hit the weight room.

No he needs playing time more than the weight room. He's never going to be a huge guy bulk wise but he can easily hit 20 HR's a year with consistent playing time.

Gwynn just needs major league at bats, and lots of them.

No he needs consistent MINOR league at bats. Let him develop in the MINORS this team is trying to win games and he shouldn't be playing over Hart, Jenkins or Hall.

Either way I'm done with this argument. I'm not changing anybody's opinion on Gwynn so continue to tout him as the leadoff hitter of the future. I'll just stay out of it.

[whatthe_buck!?]

At the the risk of beating a dead horse, and knowing full well that I am breaking my vow to stay off of this thread, and in light of the fact that all the things you just brought up in your most recent post would take a few pages to answer satisfactorily, all I will say is this: Kenny F*cking Lofton!? KENNY F*UCKING LOFTON made your list that was supposed to show how there is a vast quantity of solid left-handed leadoff guys? Get the f*ck outta here!

I would compliment your persistence, but then again my admiration of your persistence probably would not go very far in consoling the humiliation you should feel for being dead wrong; dead wrong on not only most if not all of you opinions (on this subject), but, more importantly, in the way you have responded to my argument that Gross should not be getting playing time in place of Gwynn (by changing the subject to a non-existent debate between Hart and Gwynn).

Look, maybe platooning Gwynn/Hart is a bad idea (I admitted as much in one of my earlier posts), but until it's tried it will be hard to convince me that it's not a good solution to the problems that this team now faces. Either way, AT LEAST I'm not the guy who was trying to make the case that Gross deserves playing time at the expense of Gwynn.

This says it all-

Either way I'm done with this argument. I'm not changing anybody's opinion on Gwynn so continue to tout him as the leadoff hitter of the future. I'll just stay out of it.

So the truth finally comes out! You have been misrepresenting your opinion on Gwynn all along. You have been engaging in arguments regarding the relative strengths/weaknesses of Gwynn vs Gross/Hart, not because you really care about the answer to these particular questions, but because you are simply indignant that Gwynn gets, in your opinion, so much love as the future at the leadoff spot for the Brewers. OK, now I get it, and it makes perfect sense that you won't respond to reason. Gwynn just doesn't float your boat. OK, I read you loud and clear, but don't try and pretend like you really think it will be best for him to go back down to the minors and "develop" at the age of 24. You don't give a sh*t about Gwynn or his development.

[trwi7]

all I will say is this: Kenny F*cking Lofton!? KENNY F*UCKING LOFTON made your list that was supposed to show how there is a vast quantity of solid left-handed leadoff guys? Get the f*ck outta here!

Yeah Kenny Lofton, you know the guy with a .360 OBP who's on pace to steal over 40 bases.

Either way I'm done with this argument. I'm not changing anybody's opinion on Gwynn so continue to tout him as the leadoff hitter of the future. I'll just stay out of it.

So the truth finally comes out! You have been misrepresenting your opinion on Gwynn all along. You have been engaging in arguments regarding the relative strengths/weaknesses of Gwynn vs Gross/Hart, not because you really care about the answer to these particular questions, but because you are simply indignant that Gwynn gets, in your opinion, so much love as the future at the leadoff spot for the Brewers. OK, now I get it, and it makes perfect sense that you won't respond to reason. Gwynn just doesn't float your boat. OK, I read you loud and clear, but don't try and pretend like you really think it will be best for him to go back down to the minors and "develop" at the age of 24. You don't give a sh*t about Gwynn or his development.

Oh stop putting **** words in my mouth you ****. You have no idea what the hell I've been saying here or anywhere else. But yes I've said all along that if Gwynn is not starting in the majors he should be in the minors getting playing time. However with our options right now Gwynn should be playing CF with Hall DH'ing or vice versa I really don't care but Gwynn in CF would be better because our other options are absolutely pitiful right now.

[whatthe_buck!?]

Yeah Kenny Lofton, you know the guy with a .360 OBP who's on pace to steal over 40 bases.

He is also a washed up forty year old that who is hitting .271 but who is making 6 million dollars this year. I makes you wonder why a guy who is that old, no matter how good he once was, is making that kind of money. Maybe because left-handed leadoff hitters are valuable to have? Hell, Jimmy Rollins (another guy you listed) is making 8 mil a year and is a career .328 OBP (granted he is a switch hitter, but still). BTW, Steven Drew doesn't even bat leadoff for the D'backs.

Oh stop putting **** words in my mouth you ****.

Listen, I feel kind of bad that this argument of ours became so angry, and I will take the blame for that (it definitely was my fault, but you must admit you were being a tad bit difficult). Do you want to bury the hatchet and agree to disagree (about Gwynn)? I will if you will.

[trwi7]

Yeah I'm cool now bad day at work. Either way nice win for the Brewers, Ned didn't mess up today so I feel better.

[whatthe_buck!?]

Yeah I'm cool now bad day at work. Either way nice win for the Brewers, Ned didn't mess up today so I feel better.

Good to hear. I know how the stress of having Yost as the Brewers manager can strain the nerves as well as anyone. I know that's the reason I flew off the handle .