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2017 Roster

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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#81 » by coolhandluke121 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:18 pm

Thunder Muscle wrote:I'm thinking salary relief may mean the Brewers not having to pay a crap ton of Braun's remaining contract.


Good point, but even if that's what it means, it's still dumb. They don't need that. They do need to continue stock-piling young talent. It doesn't provide any salary relief if they keep him, does it? Just get what you can, within reason of course.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#82 » by Thunder Muscle » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:48 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:
Thunder Muscle wrote:I'm thinking salary relief may mean the Brewers not having to pay a crap ton of Braun's remaining contract.


Good point, but even if that's what it means, it's still dumb. They don't need that. They do need to continue stock-piling young talent. It doesn't provide any salary relief if they keep him, does it? Just get what you can, within reason of course.


I kind of wonder if Stearns hands are a little tied with Braun. I could see Attanasio saying that he is okay with trading Braun but a) has to be a huge haul and b) he has to sign-off on it. He wants to make money and Braun is probably his biggest draw yet. I don't know if he is as hot as he was pre-PED stuff, but he is still the star player that they can market.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#83 » by coolhandluke121 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:54 pm

Thunder Muscle wrote:
I kind of wonder if Stearns hands are a little tied with Braun. I could see Attanasio saying that he is okay with trading Braun but a) has to be a huge haul and b) he has to sign-off on it. He wants to make money and Braun is probably his biggest draw yet. I don't know if he is as hot as he was pre-PED stuff, but he is still the star player that they can market.


I'm wondering the same thing, believe me. The last few pages of this thread are me arguing that I think Mark A isn't quite all the way on board a total rebuild the way some of us would like him to be. Clearly he's thinking a lot more about the future than he used to, and clearly it's a compromise that shouldn't leave anyone too angry, but I still say it's a little short of the type of tear-down the situation warranted.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#84 » by sdn40 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:53 pm

I've always been in the camp that Mark wants to keep Braun as the face of the franchise to keep the casual fan buying tickets. If our hitting falls off, the attendance in the dog days of summer would be brutal without him. Guys like Arcia don't sell tickets. I think he's willing to take the hit on the returns a trade would bring at this point. Can Thames & Co. change that thought process ? Who knows.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#85 » by El Duderino » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:31 am

coolhandluke121 wrote:
Thunder Muscle wrote:
I kind of wonder if Stearns hands are a little tied with Braun. I could see Attanasio saying that he is okay with trading Braun but a) has to be a huge haul and b) he has to sign-off on it. He wants to make money and Braun is probably his biggest draw yet. I don't know if he is as hot as he was pre-PED stuff, but he is still the star player that they can market.


I'm wondering the same thing, believe me. The last few pages of this thread are me arguing that I think Mark A isn't quite all the way on board a total rebuild the way some of us would like him to be. Clearly he's thinking a lot more about the future than he used to, and clearly it's a compromise that shouldn't leave anyone too angry, but I still say it's a little short of the type of tear-down the situation warranted.


Braun himself makes a trade difficult even if the team is willing to trade him given Braun can block a trade to the vast majority of teams. Trades in baseball are hard to pull off in general, but become much harder when a player has a big contract and can block a trade to 25 of those teams. Mix in his PED past which makes Braun a highly unpopular player among baseball fans, he's not like say a Khris Davis who had no barriers in trading him beyond what Stearns wanted in return.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#86 » by coolhandluke121 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:22 pm

El Duderino wrote:
Braun himself makes a trade difficult even if the team is willing to trade him given Braun can block a trade to the vast majority of teams. Trades in baseball are hard to pull off in general, but become much harder when a player has a big contract and can block a trade to 25 of those teams. Mix in his PED past which makes Braun a highly unpopular player among baseball fans, he's not like say a Khris Davis who had no barriers in trading him beyond what Stearns wanted in return.


Every Braun trade discussion can be prefaced with that. We can all agree that these are the reasons they won't get the type of haul you'd normally expect for a player of his caliber, and we can add injury history to the list of reasons. I think we can assume that anyone advocating for a Braun trade understands that, and is basically saying they'd still trade him for less than what you'd expect for even a lesser talent like, say, Aramis Ramirez at the same age.

Also, those issues are all the more reason to wonder why, if the wiretap is accurate, they'd be asking for good players and salary relief. This is the hand they're dealt. They shouldn't refuse to play the game just because they don't like it, and they definitely shouldn't overplay their hand.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#87 » by El Duderino » Mon May 1, 2017 12:27 am

coolhandluke121 wrote:
Every Braun trade discussion can be prefaced with that. We can all agree that these are the reasons they won't get the type of haul you'd normally expect for a player of his caliber, and we can add injury history to the list of reasons. I think we can assume that anyone advocating for a Braun trade understands that, and is basically saying they'd still trade him for less than what you'd expect for even a lesser talent like, say, Aramis Ramirez at the same age.

Also, those issues are all the more reason to wonder why, if the wiretap is accurate, they'd be asking for good players and salary relief. This is the hand they're dealt. They shouldn't refuse to play the game just because they don't like it, and they definitely shouldn't overplay their hand.


Unlike you, i see no reason to trade Braun unless the return for him is good.

With all of the young players who will be filling the roster over the next few years, it's not as if his salary should be a drag on the team payroll the next few years. All that money would do is stuff more millions in Attanasio's pocket.

Besides that, with the good players already on the team, highly ranked prospects who will start adding to the roster, and the way Stearns is always mining for talent, Braun remaining on the team won't be preventing the Brewers from landing say a top 2-3 pick.

So what exactly is the mad rush to trade Braun for anything out there even if the return is crap? It's not as if he's showing any clear signs of decline or he's some Prince Fielder type of non-athlete slugger only who tend to fall off a cliff in production.

Stearns asking for a fair return wouldn't be overplaying his hand, it would be acting like a prudent GM.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#88 » by Iheartfootball » Mon May 1, 2017 4:55 am

El Duderino wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
Every Braun trade discussion can be prefaced with that. We can all agree that these are the reasons they won't get the type of haul you'd normally expect for a player of his caliber, and we can add injury history to the list of reasons. I think we can assume that anyone advocating for a Braun trade understands that, and is basically saying they'd still trade him for less than what you'd expect for even a lesser talent like, say, Aramis Ramirez at the same age.

Also, those issues are all the more reason to wonder why, if the wiretap is accurate, they'd be asking for good players and salary relief. This is the hand they're dealt. They shouldn't refuse to play the game just because they don't like it, and they definitely shouldn't overplay their hand.


Unlike you, i see no reason to trade Braun unless the return for him is good.

With all of the young players who will be filling the roster over the next few years, it's not as if his salary should be a drag on the team payroll the next few years. All that money would do is stuff more millions in Attanasio's pocket.

Besides that, with the good players already on the team, highly ranked prospects who will start adding to the roster, and the way Stearns is always mining for talent, Braun remaining on the team won't be preventing the Brewers from landing say a top 2-3 pick.

So what exactly is the mad rush to trade Braun for anything out there even if the return is crap? It's not as if he's showing any clear signs of decline or he's some Prince Fielder type of non-athlete slugger only who tend to fall off a cliff in production.

Stearns asking for a fair return wouldn't be overplaying his hand, it would be acting like a prudent GM.


I have to agree. I want to trade veterans now too but Braun has value to the Brewers beyond his role on the field. He's trying to clean up his image by laying low. He says the right things about the team and direction. He's also a good veteran role model for the younger guys. If that costs the team a couple of wins I'm okay with that. He could become ambassador for the team (unless he burned that bridge with Antanassio) at some point after he's done. Finally, being with one team your entire career isn't anything to sneeze at. It's admirable and pretty amazing in this current baseball economy.

But if they are offered a haul...
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#89 » by Thunder Muscle » Mon May 1, 2017 3:14 pm

So I'm kind of souring on Nelson a bit. I was thinking he couldve been like a #3von a good team, but starting to think he is just a back end guy on a mediocre at best team. Someone convince me I'm overreacting...
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#90 » by Kerb Hohl » Mon May 1, 2017 3:18 pm

Thunder Muscle wrote:So I'm kind of souring on Nelson a bit. I was thinking he couldve been like a #3von a good team, but starting to think he is just a back end guy on a mediocre at best team. Someone convince me I'm overreacting...


He's never been able to get lefties out along with Peralta. I won't be the one talking you out of it.

I wonder if he should turn into a 2-inning reliever type and dial it up a bit along with Peralta, who should be a 1-inning reliever. It might save both of their careers. Of course, finally getting a changeup or something that can get lefties out would be even more lucrative to them and they'll probably both try to stick with SP, but I could see them as our next bullpen pieces if not.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#91 » by Kerb Hohl » Mon May 1, 2017 3:35 pm

Combining a few of the recent topics of "salary relief" for Braun and Nelson, Peralta, etc. - I think the Brewers may have to make their Jon Lester-type signing to springboard the actual winning process of this rebuild. I'm not sure the Brewers can afford or attract somebody of that magnitude, but I think that is what will be necessary.

I am confident that Hader will be a #2-type and that Davies will probably rebound and still be the #5 guy if we want him there for the next few years. Beyond that, I've got nothing. The prospect-ites will probably yell at me for not talking up Woodruff or Lopez (star is fading a bit) and we have Ortiz, Bickford, Diplan...but we're going to have to overpay for pitching via free agency or via a mega trade.

Sorry if I sound like a simpleton on our minor league players, but the hype on Woodruff is what I remember about Lopez and Nelson. Somewhat unheralded pitcher is lighting up the minors and is coveted by fans only to not really be that good in the majors. Bickford, Ortiz, Diplan are all quite young and may be more likely to come up and fill out the rotation in the 2020 or later range and like any pitcher could fizzle out on their way up.

I'm sure I'll be wrong and one of these guys will be a great rotation piece. I do think that Woodruff has a pretty solid to be at least an MLB rotation guy even if my pessimism holds true, but we're going to probably still have to overpay for some pitching soon.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#92 » by wichmae » Mon May 1, 2017 4:49 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:Combining a few of the recent topics of "salary relief" for Braun and Nelson, Peralta, etc. - I think the Brewers may have to make their Jon Lester-type signing to springboard the actual winning process of this rebuild. I'm not sure the Brewers can afford or attract somebody of that magnitude, but I think that is what will be necessary.

I am confident that Hader will be a #2-type and that Davies will probably rebound and still be the #5 guy if we want him there for the next few years. Beyond that, I've got nothing. The prospect-ites will probably yell at me for not talking up Woodruff or Lopez (star is fading a bit) and we have Ortiz, Bickford, Diplan...but we're going to have to overpay for pitching via free agency or via a mega trade.

Sorry if I sound like a simpleton on our minor league players, but the hype on Woodruff is what I remember about Lopez and Nelson. Somewhat unheralded pitcher is lighting up the minors and is coveted by fans only to not really be that good in the majors. Bickford, Ortiz, Diplan are all quite young and may be more likely to come up and fill out the rotation in the 2020 or later range and like any pitcher could fizzle out on their way up.

I'm sure I'll be wrong and one of these guys will be a great rotation piece. I do think that Woodruff has a pretty solid to be at least an MLB rotation guy even if my pessimism holds true, but we're going to probably still have to overpay for some pitching soon.

Lopez has a 1.74 ERA and a .81 WHIP. Hes struck out 30 and walked 4. Lopez also was a 2nd round pick so not sure where the unheralded came from either. We have quite a bit of arm depth in the org but I will agree no future front line guy. Like Ive said before. Ponce has the best shot with 4 plus pitches but is quite a ways away still.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#93 » by Kerb Hohl » Mon May 1, 2017 4:52 pm

wichmae wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:Combining a few of the recent topics of "salary relief" for Braun and Nelson, Peralta, etc. - I think the Brewers may have to make their Jon Lester-type signing to springboard the actual winning process of this rebuild. I'm not sure the Brewers can afford or attract somebody of that magnitude, but I think that is what will be necessary.

I am confident that Hader will be a #2-type and that Davies will probably rebound and still be the #5 guy if we want him there for the next few years. Beyond that, I've got nothing. The prospect-ites will probably yell at me for not talking up Woodruff or Lopez (star is fading a bit) and we have Ortiz, Bickford, Diplan...but we're going to have to overpay for pitching via free agency or via a mega trade.

Sorry if I sound like a simpleton on our minor league players, but the hype on Woodruff is what I remember about Lopez and Nelson. Somewhat unheralded pitcher is lighting up the minors and is coveted by fans only to not really be that good in the majors. Bickford, Ortiz, Diplan are all quite young and may be more likely to come up and fill out the rotation in the 2020 or later range and like any pitcher could fizzle out on their way up.

I'm sure I'll be wrong and one of these guys will be a great rotation piece. I do think that Woodruff has a pretty solid to be at least an MLB rotation guy even if my pessimism holds true, but we're going to probably still have to overpay for some pitching soon.

Lopez has a 1.74 ERA and a .81 WHIP. Hes struck out 30 and walked 4.


Yeah, just noticed that...doubled back to AA but that's still promising. Can't wait to dump Colorado Springs.

All of that said, just given track record, I'm still pessimistic that we're going to get much beyond Hader but I'm just probably jaded from decades of hype on guys that amounted to #4 starters at best outside of Sheets and Gallardo.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#94 » by Turk Nowitzki » Mon May 1, 2017 5:01 pm

No idea why the hell he made the team in the first place.

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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#95 » by coolhandluke121 » Mon May 1, 2017 6:21 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
All of that said, just given track record, I'm still pessimistic that we're going to get much beyond Hader but I'm just probably jaded from decades of hype on guys that amounted to #4 starters at best outside of Sheets and Gallardo.


Manny Parra says hi.

If I'm not mistaken, the next time this regime develops a serviceable starting pitcher will be the first. I agree on Nelson and Peralta in the pen.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#96 » by El Duderino » Mon May 1, 2017 9:29 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
Thunder Muscle wrote:So I'm kind of souring on Nelson a bit. I was thinking he couldve been like a #3von a good team, but starting to think he is just a back end guy on a mediocre at best team. Someone convince me I'm overreacting...


He's never been able to get lefties out along with Peralta. I won't be the one talking you out of it.

I wonder if he should turn into a 2-inning reliever type and dial it up a bit along with Peralta, who should be a 1-inning reliever. It might save both of their careers. Of course, finally getting a changeup or something that can get lefties out would be even more lucrative to them and they'll probably both try to stick with SP, but I could see them as our next bullpen pieces if not.


Both Peralta and Nelson have the same issue they've always had, a lack of command. They walk to many hitters and get in to many bad count situations.

Unless a pitcher has dominating stuff, if they give up to many walks and get behind in the count a lot, they will struggle to be consistently good. Hell, even pitchers with upper tier stuff will struggle if they walk to many hitters. Randy Johnson for example had dominating stuff and even he wasn't really good until his walk totals decreased significantly.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#97 » by El Duderino » Mon May 1, 2017 10:10 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:Combining a few of the recent topics of "salary relief" for Braun and Nelson, Peralta, etc. - I think the Brewers may have to make their Jon Lester-type signing to springboard the actual winning process of this rebuild. I'm not sure the Brewers can afford or attract somebody of that magnitude, but I think that is what will be necessary.

I am confident that Hader will be a #2-type and that Davies will probably rebound and still be the #5 guy if we want him there for the next few years. Beyond that, I've got nothing. The prospect-ites will probably yell at me for not talking up Woodruff or Lopez (star is fading a bit) and we have Ortiz, Bickford, Diplan...but we're going to have to overpay for pitching via free agency or via a mega trade.

Sorry if I sound like a simpleton on our minor league players, but the hype on Woodruff is what I remember about Lopez and Nelson. Somewhat unheralded pitcher is lighting up the minors and is coveted by fans only to not really be that good in the majors. Bickford, Ortiz, Diplan are all quite young and may be more likely to come up and fill out the rotation in the 2020 or later range and like any pitcher could fizzle out on their way up.

I'm sure I'll be wrong and one of these guys will be a great rotation piece. I do think that Woodruff has a pretty solid to be at least an MLB rotation guy even if my pessimism holds true, but we're going to probably still have to overpay for some pitching soon.


Sometimes a team just needs some luck to go their way when it comes to starting pitching.

You bring up Lester. The Cubs also struck gold with Arrieta and Hendricks. I'm sure when they traded for Arrieta, they had to think there was something better there than his bad performance with Baltimore, but no way could Theo have expected Arrieta to turn around and become a CY Young caliber starter. When he traded for Hendricks, Theo clearly liked him enough to acquire him, but i really doubt Theo was expecting Hendricks to turn out being this good.

Being a GM in pro sports obviously requires that guy to be skilled at his job, but often a GM also needs some luck along the way while building a really good team and especially when it comes to starting pitching in baseball where injuries are so common.

The Brewers organization finally has a number of intriguing arms in the various levels of the minors, but how they'll perform when/if they actually reach the major is so hard to predict. And even if some do become quality starting pitchers, it can easily vary on how quick it happens from right away to struggling for a year or two before finally putting things together.

That's why Theo tended to draft mostly positions players with his higher draft picks. He saw them as easier to project and predict.
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Re: 2017 Roster 

Post#98 » by Thunder Muscle » Thu Jul 6, 2017 4:50 pm

There is no way I would've guessed 7 games OVER 500 on July 6th with what we are getting out of Villar, Braun, Guerra, and Davies. Arguably top 2 pitchers going into the season and top 2 hitters from last year. You can get a shot in the arm right there if a few of those guys turn it around. Granted Davies is 9-4 but hasn't pitched exactly well.

In the same breath, at what point do you just sit a guy like Villar and go with a hot hand (Sogard for awhile) or something different?
TBD

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