The Craig Counsell Thread

[humanrefutation]

Poll up top.

I'm wondering what the board consensus is on Counsell. Explain below if you'd like.

Possible separate question: Is Counsell going to be the right man to manage this club into contention?

Update as of 7/23/19
Great Manager: 15%
Good Manager: 69%
Meh: 12%
Below Average Manager: 3%
Fire Him Now: 1%

[ReasonablySober]

He hasn't had a team with the burden of expectations yet. For a young roster with a lot of turnover, I think he's been fine.


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[sdn40]

All indications are he is not a liability, which means he's good enough for me. Creative. Young. Tons of experience. Playoff experience. Even keeled. Should get better. Don't know if he would be quick to jump ship, but having ties here doesn't hurt.

[trwi7]

He hasn't had a team with the burden of expectations yet. For a young roster with a lot of turnover, I think he's been fine.


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Where is this young roster?

[wichmae]

He hasn't had a team with the burden of expectations yet. For a young roster with a lot of turnover, I think he's been fine.


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Where is this young roster?

Technically theyre tied for the second youngest team in baseball with an averge age of 27.7. Not sure if that takes into account Phillips, Hader, and Brinson yet though so they may be even younger. Youngest team is the Padres.
http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/rosters

ETA: yup just did the math quick. Right now theyre younger with an average age of 26.2

[ReasonablySober]

He hasn't had a team with the burden of expectations yet. For a young roster with a lot of turnover, I think he's been fine.


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Where is this young roster?

[trwi7]

Pina - 30
Thames - 30
Villar - 26
Arcia - 22
Shaw - 27
Braun - 33
Broxton - 27
Santana - 24

Bandy - 27
Perez - 26
Nieuwenhuis - 29
Aguilar - 27
Franklin - 26
Sogard - 31

Anderson - 29
Nelson - 28
Guerra - 32
Garza - 33
Davies - 24
Peralta - 28

Knebel - 25
Torres -34
Barnes - 27
Feliz - 29
Drake - 30
Milone - 30
Scahill - 30
Hughes - 31
Marinez - 28
Espino - 30
Suter -27
Goforth - 28
Jungmann - 27

That was our roster until last week. There were a few young players in there but it's certainly not young.

[ReasonablySober]

I know you want the Brewers to field a AAA team, but yea, it's young.

[wichmae]

Pina - 30
Thames - 30
Villar - 26
Arcia - 22
Shaw - 27
Braun - 33
Broxton - 27
Santana - 24

Bandy - 27
Perez - 26
Nieuwenhuis - 29
Aguilar - 27
Franklin - 26
Sogard - 31

Anderson - 29
Nelson - 28
Guerra - 32
Garza - 33
Davies - 24
Peralta - 28

Knebel - 25
Torres -34
Barnes - 27
Feliz - 29
Drake - 30
Milone - 30
Scahill - 30
Hughes - 31
Marinez - 28
Espino - 30
Suter -27
Goforth - 28
Jungmann - 27

That was our roster until last week. There were a few young players in there but it's certainly not young.

Technically it is. Only the Padres were younger by average age on the 25. We technically are younger right now than they are. Im usually with you on most of your angles but youre just wrong on this one man (plus quite of few of those guys werent on the 40 at the same time so I feel youre cherry picking).

[ReasonablySober]

Imagine having the youngest team in the league and being mad about them being in 1st.

[trwi7]

Most of the guys we have are in their prime, we have more players past their prime than under 25. There's not much managing to do with a bunch of players in their prime or above it. You make it sound like he's managing a bunch of 23 year olds.

[wichmae]

Most of the guys we have are in their prime, we have more players past their prime than under 25. There's not much managing to do with a bunch of players in their prime or above it. You make it sound like he's managing a bunch of 23 year olds.

23 is the between age of high A and AA. Average age right now for high A is 22.4 and AA is 23.8. Were almost two years under the average age of a AAA roster which is set at 28.2 at our MLB level. We are a very young team.

[trwi7]

Most of the guys we have are in their prime, we have more players past their prime than under 25. There's not much managing to do with a bunch of players in their prime or above it. You make it sound like he's managing a bunch of 23 year olds.

23 is the between age of high A and AA. Average age right now for high A is 22.4 and AA is 23.8. Were almost two years under the average age of a AAA roster which is set at 28.2 at our MLB level. We are a very young team.

That's because non prospects fill out rosters and raise the average age.

Just look at the top 100 prospects now.

Moncada - 22- AAA
Torres - 20 - AAA
Rosario - 21 - AAA
Crawford - 22 - AAA
Robles - 20 - A+
Meadows - 22 - AAA
Albies - 20 - AAA
Jimenez - 20 - A+
Reyes - 22 - Would be in AAA or the majors if he wasn't hurt
Rodgers - 20 - A+
Kopech - 21 - AA
Devers - 20 - AA
Brinson - just turned 23 - AAA/MLB
Moniak - 19 - A
Martes - 21 - AAA/MLB
Adames - 21 - AAA
Zimmer - 24 - AAA/MLB
Frazier - 22 - AAA
Espinoza - 19 - would probably be in A+ if not hurt
Senzel - 21 - A+ probably will get a promotion soon
Happ - 22 - MLB
Lewis - 21 - A+
Ray - 22 - A+
Honeywell - 22 - AAA
Robert - 19 - Just signed, no assignment yet
Maitan - 17 - No assignment yet
De Leon - 24 - AAA/MLB
Guerrero Jr. - 18 - A
Tucker - 20 - AA
Giolito - 22 - AAA
O'Neill - 21 - AAA
Rutherford - 20 - A
Hader - 23 - AAA/MLB
Kelly - 22 - AAA
Mejia - 21 - AA
Groome - 18 - A
Garrett - 19 - A
Lopez - 23 - AAA
Mateo - 21 - A+
Keller - 21 - A+

I don't feel like going any further but even the last few in the top 100 are 21 AA, 22 in AAA and 19 in A ball.

Look at our top 30. Reed is 24 and in AA because the outfield in CS is crowded and he's barely a prospect anymore with how he's hit the past couple of years. Devin Williams is going to be an older prospect because he's going to have missed an entire year. Same with Nathan Kirby. Those types of players and roster fillers (guys who aren't major league material but can fill out the bench or a bullpen role in the minors) are going to bump up that average age.

If you're a legitimate prospect the development should go something like this.

18 - Signed, rookie ball
19 - Rookie ball or if advanced enough, A ball
20 - A ball
21 - A+
22- AA
23 - AAA

Or if you're a college player

21 - A ball
22 - A+ hopefully a promotion to AA
23 - AA hopefully a promotion to AAA
24 - AAA Super Two BS and then hopefully MLB

Maybe some promotions or repeating a half year at a level in there but legitimate prospects aren't going to be that old unless they were old when they were drafted or got hurt and missed development time.

I mean Jesus, look at our AA roster. Nick Ramirez is 27 years old, couldn't hack it as a hitter so he's trying to make it as a pitcher now. Not really a prospect other than maybe a LOOGY. I know you don't want to hear it but Aaron Wilkerson is 27, maybe makes it as a swingman. Josh Uhen is 25 and roster filler. Taylor Williams is going to be 26 and missed two years with Tommy John surgery.

Art Charles and Dustin DeMuth. Not prospects but 26 years old, there goes that average age again. Climbing on up. Johnny Davis isn't a prospect and is 26. Michael Choice is a AAAA player and is 27. Oh look, that average age just keeps on climbing.

[wichmae]

Most of the guys we have are in their prime, we have more players past their prime than under 25. There's not much managing to do with a bunch of players in their prime or above it. You make it sound like he's managing a bunch of 23 year olds.

23 is the between age of high A and AA. Average age right now for high A is 22.4 and AA is 23.8. Were almost two years under the average age of a AAA roster which is set at 28.2 at our MLB level. We are a very young team.

That's because non prospects fill out rosters and raise the average age.

Just look at the top 100 prospects now.

Moncada - 22- AAA
Torres - 20 - AAA
Rosario - 21 - AAA
Crawford - 22 - AAA
Robles - 20 - A+
Meadows - 22 - AAA
Albies - 20 - AAA
Jimenez - 20 - A+
Reyes - 22 - Would be in AAA or the majors if he wasn't hurt
Rodgers - 20 - A+
Kopech - 21 - AA
Devers - 20 - AA
Brinson - just turned 23 - AAA/MLB
Moniak - 19 - A
Martes - 21 - AAA/MLB
Adames - 21 - AAA
Zimmer - 24 - AAA/MLB
Frazier - 22 - AAA
Espinoza - 19 - would probably be in A+ if not hurt
Senzel - 21 - A+ probably will get a promotion soon
Happ - 22 - MLB
Lewis - 21 - A+
Ray - 22 - A+
Honeywell - 22 - AAA
Robert - 19 - Just signed, no assignment yet
Maitan - 17 - No assignment yet
De Leon - 24 - AAA/MLB
Guerrero Jr. - 18 - A
Tucker - 20 - AA
Giolito - 22 - AAA
O'Neill - 21 - AAA
Rutherford - 20 - A
Hader - 23 - AAA/MLB
Kelly - 22 - AAA
Mejia - 21 - AA
Groome - 18 - A
Garrett - 19 - A
Lopez - 23 - AAA
Mateo - 21 - A+
Keller - 21 - A+

I don't feel like going any further but even the last few in the top 100 are 21 AA, 22 in AAA and 19 in A ball.

Look at our top 30. Reed is 24 and in AA because the outfield in CS is crowded and he's barely a prospect anymore with how he's hit the past couple of years. Devin Williams is going to be an older prospect because he's going to have missed an entire year. Same with Nathan Kirby. Those types of players and roster fillers (guys who aren't major league material but can fill out the bench or a bullpen role in the minors) are going to bump up that average age.

If you're a legitimate prospect the development should go something like this.

18 - Signed, rookie ball
19 - Rookie ball or if advanced enough, A ball
20 - A ball
21 - A+
22- AA
23 - AAA

Or if you're a college player

21 - A ball
22 - A+ hopefully a promotion to AA
23 - AA hopefully a promotion to AAA
24 - AAA Super Two BS and then hopefully MLB

Maybe some promotions or repeating a half year at a level in there but legitimate prospects aren't going to be that old unless they were old when they were drafted or got hurt and missed development time.

I mean Jesus, look at our AA roster. Nick Ramirez is 27 years old, couldn't hack it as a hitter so he's trying to make it as a pitcher now. Not really a prospect other than maybe a LOOGY. I know you don't want to hear it but Aaron Wilkerson is 27, maybe makes it as a swingman. Josh Uhen is 25 and roster filler. Taylor Williams is going to be 26 and missed two years with Tommy John surgery.

Art Charles and Dustin DeMuth. Not prospects but 26 years old, there goes that average age again. Climbing on up. Johnny Davis isn't a prospect and is 26. Michael Choice is a AAAA player and is 27. Oh look, that average age just keeps on climbing.

Its just simply not that simple. MiLB is about growing players and putting them in the best positions to succeed. Art Charles was in indy ball outside of last season and again like you pointed out with Uhen and Williams but both have reasons to be placed where they are. In the grand scheme of things numbers still average out. Some guys have skills to get out placed and some dont. Throughout the entire system the Brewers are very young and very aggressive. Im really not sure how this can even be argued against. Its purely based in facts and numbers. Their top two picks are at high A and have the only 18 year old in single A. Age the way youre trying to put it is far more subjective versus the reality of placement being objective. For instance there was one other person from last year class placed in the same level as Ray through out all of baseball. Its a case by case basis and after that situation is settled you can incorperate the numbers on placement.

[trwi7]

Look at every **** team's top 30. There's not a chance that their top prospects are going to be 23 or 24 in A+ or AA unless they were old when they got drafted or got hurt and missed a lot of time like Williams missing two years with Tommy John.

You say it's not that simple but it really **** is. I mean, there are outliers like Mike Fiers, who was never really considered a prospect and was almost 24 when he was drafted but for the most part, any good prospect is well past A+ at 22 and AA at 24.

[Prickle]

Lol at the nitpicking about age. First of all, "young" is a relative term, especially when it comes to baseball. It's not so much about how old a player is, but more about where that player is as far as his development. A 20-year-old can be considered a young player, but so can a 25-year-old. Since when did the age 25 become the cutoff for a baseball player's prime? A baseball player's "prime" has nothing to do with age. It takes time for most players to become MLB-ready (hence, A, AA, and AAA ball), and even once they do, most will only have about a 5 to 6-year window of productivity in the league, but that window isn't necessarily tied to age like it is in other sports. What separates baseball from other sports is that there's no telling when a player will find their stride. Some may indeed hit their peak at 25, but for others it may come later, and others much, much later. This isn't football or basketball, where anyone over the age of 30 is considered past their prime, many baseball players don't even reach their prime until they're in their 30's.

So, I guess my point is: talking about age as if it's something that really matters is, well.....pointless.

[trwi7]

A baseball player's "prime" has nothing to do with age.

[Prickle]

A baseball player's "prime" has nothing to do with age.

A baseball player's "prime" has nothing to do with age.......compared to other sports (I thought the implication was obvious). Obviously, there's a reason there aren't a bunch of 50-year-olds playing MLB baseball.

I've inferred that your cutoff of a player's prime is at or around the age 25. I will gladly take a roster of MLB players over 25 and you can have a team of players under 25. Sound good?

[trwi7]

A player's prime has literally everything to do with age and I never once implied that I thought a player's prime was at or around 25.

[Prickle]

A player's prime has literally everything to do with age