The Craig Counsell Thread

Post #21 » by **humanrefutation** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:54 pm

Well this conversation hasn't had much to do with Counsell.

I'm gonna leave the poll open up there and you can change your vote if you want - but just explain it when you do so. It would be interesting to see how the board poll changes over time. I'll also solicit people's updated votes every once in a while and post the results for posterity's sake.

Post #22 » by **ReasonablySober** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:57 pm

Voted Meh. I don't know if he's good or bad, so something in the middle seems fine.

Post #23 » by **humanrefutation** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:38 pm

I voted good because he's good for where the team is at right now. I don't know if he's the right manager to bring them into contention. I'd prefer a guy with a bit more experience in the role, to be honest.

Kerb Hohl · Post #24 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:47 pm

humanrefutation wrote:I voted good because he's good for where the team is at right now. I don't know if he's the right manager to bring them into contention. I'd prefer a guy with a bit more experience in the role, to be honest.

When they're back in contention, wouldn't Counsell be pretty experienced?

Iheartfootball · Post #25 » by **Iheartfootball** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:03 pm

I voted good. I think he's been very even tempered and has assembled a decent coaching staff. I think his in game decisions have gotten better. I really hope he is here for the long haul. I think continuity for this young team going forward will be important.

Post #26 » by **humanrefutation** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:43 pm

Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:I voted good because he's good for where the team is at right now. I don't know if he's the right manager to bring them into contention. I'd prefer a guy with a bit more experience in the role, to be honest.

When they're back in contention, wouldn't Counsell be pretty experienced?

Possibly, but as the team goes into contention, I believe that the challenges that he will face will be different from what he's dealing with right now. At that point, Counsell might be good at the day-to-day operational side of managing, but he won't have faced the scrutiny, pressure, and other challenges which is a part of managing a contending ball club. He'll still be inexperienced with handling that. That isn't to say he won't be able to do it well, but the fact that he had no coaching experience prior to taking this job makes it difficult for me to judge his ability to handle those issues when they arise.

Post #27 » by **MickeyDavis** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:55 pm

He's doing fine in a no pressure, no expectations environment.

Kerb Hohl · Post #28 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:57 pm

humanrefutation wrote:
Kerb Hohl wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:I voted good because he's good for where the team is at right now. I don't know if he's the right manager to bring them into contention. I'd prefer a guy with a bit more experience in the role, to be honest.

When they're back in contention, wouldn't Counsell be pretty experienced?

Possibly, but as the team goes into contention, I believe that the challenges that he will face will be different from what he's dealing with right now. At that point, Counsell might be good at the day-to-day operational side of managing, but he won't have faced the scrutiny, pressure, and other challenges which is a part of managing a contending ball club. He'll still be inexperienced with handling that. That isn't to say he won't be able to do it well, but the fact that he had no coaching experience prior to taking this job makes it difficult for me to judge his ability to handle those issues when they arise.

To me, that's something Stearns has to know/judge and he will retain him given that opinion, one would think. Also, Counsell has been at the plate in the 9th inning of World Series games...I would think he'll do alright. You've got guys like Buck Showalter and Dusty Baker who have managed for decades and are utter buffoons in using their bullpens, especially when it counts.

I haven't watched a ton of the past few years, but as long as Counsell has an ear to the ideas of lineup adjustments and bullpen calls from the GM or stats guys (especially in playoff situations) that is good enough for me. That seems to be what Dave Roberts (relative n00b in MLB coaching) was able to do and they did well in the playoffs last year.

El Duderino · Post #29 » by **El Duderino** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:51 pm

trwi7 wrote:Pina - 30
Thames - 30
Villar - 26
Arcia - 22
Shaw - 27
Braun - 33
Broxton - 27
Santana - 24

Bandy - 27
Perez - 26
Nieuwenhuis - 29
Aguilar - 27
Franklin - 26
Sogard - 31

Anderson - 29
Nelson - 28
Guerra - 32
Garza - 33
Davies - 24
Peralta - 28

Knebel - 25
Torres -34
Barnes - 27
Feliz - 29
Drake - 30
Milone - 30
Scahill - 30
Hughes - 31
Marinez - 28
Espino - 30
Suter -27
Goforth - 28
Jungmann - 27

That was our roster until last week. There were a few young players in there but it's certainly not young.

I look at team control a lot.

Whether it's Villar, Shaw, Aguilar, Broxton, Santana, Bandy, Pina, Perez, Guerra, Nelson, Davies, Knebal, or Barnes, all are pre-Arb and have varying degrees of value. None are scrubs as often was the case for this franchise. Even Anderson has two more years of control.

So as prospects start getting called up over the next few years, if some or most of these guys remain productive, the team can choose to keep some and trade others. I can't remember the last time the Brewers had this much over-lapping depth between the big league roster and the minors.

It should give Stearns so many more options on building rosters and in the trade market so long as most of those guys i listed remain productive big league players given they'll all be cheap for awhile.

Post #30 » by **humanrefutation** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:53 pm

Update as of 6/13/17:
Great manager - 14%
Good manager - 67%
Meh - 19%
Below Average Manager- 0%
Fire Him Now - 0%

BUCKnation · Post #31 » by **BUCKnation** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:42 pm

I gave him a good manager, leaning close to great manager. Given the teams he has had, you can't question the success, but he hasn't been in a pennant race where each move gets examined with a microscope. Can't really complain too much with the bullpen moves this year b/c they are all s*** options.

treego · Post #32 » by **treego** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:46 pm

Craig Counsell waited too long to take Suter out today. It seemed like Counsell was content in losing to the Cardinals once again. Too slow to make a move with a struggling pitcher, once again.

Why does he continue to play Thames every day when it's obvious that Thames' legs are bothering him a lot? Jesus Aguilera is more than capable.

Why does Nick Franklin ever start in the outfield? Domingo should have been in there at the start. We had a day OFF yesterday. On top of that, Domingo is young. He's not tired!

Stop platooning at the catcher spot! Manny Pina is better than Jett Bandy. Give him the bulk of the games!

Counsell stuck too long with a very poor Jonathan Villar this season. Counsell reminds me too much of Ron Roenicke; too slow to make changes when changes are due. He's too much of a loyalist to certain players, IMHO. Think outside the box! Don't worry about players' feelings so much. Do what is good for the team and gives us the maximum chances to win a ball game!

Finally, stop playing Broxton so much.

I rate Counsell "below average."

treego · Post #33 » by **treego** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:54 pm

We had a day OFF yesterday? Why do we have to start Suter today? The rotation should have pitched with normal days' rest today.

wichmae · Post #34 » by **wichmae** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:26 am

treego wrote:We had a day OFF yesterday? Why do we have to start Suter today? The rotation should have pitched with normal days' rest today.

Did you seriously miss the entire days news?

treego · Post #35 » by **treego** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:52 am

wichmae wrote:
treego wrote:We had a day OFF yesterday? Why do we have to start Suter today? The rotation should have pitched with normal days' rest today.

Did you seriously miss the entire days news?

Nope! Start Nelson in Game 1 and then start whoever follows him in the rotation in Game 2. The Woodruff thing is not even relative here. When Woodruff went down, there's no need to bring up a proven MLB-wannabee to pitch a game against a divison rival on the road! Go for the win! Field your best against the hated Cardinals! Stop laying down! Stop making excuses!

treego · Post #36 » by **treego** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:54 am

When the manager is NOT serious about playing his best, how can the players be serious about winning games? Counsell set the tone for the series by starting Suter, Bandy, Franklin, and Thames in Game 1. (Thames needs to be on the DL)

wichmae · Post #37 » by **wichmae** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:56 am

treego wrote:
wichmae wrote:
treego wrote:We had a day OFF yesterday? Why do we have to start Suter today? The rotation should have pitched with normal days' rest today.

Did you seriously miss the entire days news?

Nope! Start Nelson in Game 1 and then start whoever follows him in the rotation in Game 2. The Woodruff thing is not even relative here. When Woodruff went down, there's no need to bring up a proven MLB-wannabee to pitch a game against a divison rival on the road! Go for the win! Field your best against the hated Cardinals! Stop laying down! Stop making excuses!

Yeah this makes no sense. In a D/N DH with a gap you have the most adverse situation first to react to the the outcome later. We had a forced day off yesterday my MLB rules since we played 20 games straight. Wins at this stage in our rebuild are meaningless. Division rival or not.

treego · Post #38 » by **treego** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:59 am

Sorry, but I believe that is losing mentality! When I saw the lineup with Suter starting, I knew Counsell was "settling" for another mediocre to failing season. You're in 1st place with 1/3 of the season already in ... don't lay down! :banghead:

wichmae · Post #39 » by **wichmae** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:02 am

treego wrote:Sorry, but I believe that is losing mentality! When I saw the lineup with Suter starting, I knew Counsell was "settling" for another mediocre to failing season. You're in 1st place with 1/3 of the season already in ... don't lay down!

Nope. The team is outperforming expectations and regressions to norms are starting to hit this club. Its stupid to over-react and try to jump the gun. Im glad management and the organization is smart enough to realize this.

treego · Post #40 » by **treego** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:09 am

Jump the gun? What? Pitching Jimmy Nelson and the next starter instead of Suter and Nelson? That's jumping the gun? No way! That's just smart if you are serious about building a winning mentality. I'm tired of Milwaukee saying, "Wait 'til next year OR next decade." Win while you have the chance. Play your best! This is not rocket science! This is just smart.

How do you rate Craig Counsell?