Series Thread: Phillies @ Brewers

[trwi7]

I'm not optimistic but maybe this will teach Counsell how to more effectively use the bullpen. Have a big lead going to the 6th on Friday and Davies obviously isn't pitching well, so instead of pulling the plug on him after 5, he allows him to put the tying runner on base in the 6th before pulling him.

If he pulls Davies before the start of the inning instead of trying to squeeze another inning out of him, we could possibly get out of the 6th with a 5 run lead and perhaps even more and then you could use Scahill to mop up instead of going with Torres, Hughes, Hader, Barnes and Knebel.

You also don't have to fall in love with the save stat. Barnes and Knebel weren't available today because you just had to get the hold and the save. I'd have confidence in almost every pitcher in our pen being able to hold a 3 run lead in the 9th but nope, had to use 5 relievers in a game that never got closer than 3 runs because reasons.

If Counsell goes to Torres to start the 6th last night, I'd feel pretty good about us getting out of the 6th with a 9-4 lead. Now he probably pinch hits for Torres in the bottom half but at that point Hughes or Drake can come in for a couple of innings saving Barnes and Hader at minimum and possibly Knebel as well making all three of them available today.

I get that you kind of half to manage in the now and worry about overworked bullpen arms when you get to them but you can prevent a lot of pitcher overuse by just thinking ahead for two minutes during the game and not using the "3 run game, have to use my closer" mentality.

[Prickle]

Admittedly, I've had a problem with Broxton for quite a while now, and I think the 9th inning today pretty much encapsulated all the reasons why. Despite what some on here will say, contact is, and always will be more beneficial than striking out. Perez (who I've campaigned for to eat some of Keon's time at CF) hits a soft blooper off the end of his bat, which just happens to find green grass, and start a potential rally. Sure, 9 times out of 10, that blooper ends up as an out. But a strikeout ends up as an out 10 TIMES OUT OF 10!

But that's not all....Broxton was then pinch-hit for with two on and no outs, by the backup catcher, mind you. It's becoming clear that even the manager is losing faith in Broxton's ability to put the ball in play. I highly doubt that Vogt pinch-hits for any other player on the team in that situation, so it just goes to show how far the confidence level has dropped in regards to Broxton.

Obviously, Perez is not the long-term answer at CF, but he certainly could fill in for Broxton 2-3 days a week. Phillips too, for as long as stays up here. I'm not saying they should give up on Broxton - dude has skills and a lot of potential. But the reality is: he's giving up at-bats, and that can't continue for a team that is contending.

[Prickle]

I'm not optimistic but maybe this will teach Counsell how to more effectively use the bullpen. Have a big lead going to the 6th on Friday and Davies obviously isn't pitching well, so instead of pulling the plug on him after 5, he allows him to put the tying runner on base in the 6th before pulling him.

If he pulls Davies before the start of the inning instead of trying to squeeze another inning out of him, we could possibly get out of the 6th with a 5 run lead and perhaps even more and then you could use Scahill to mop up instead of going with Torres, Hughes, Hader, Barnes and Knebel.

You also don't have to fall in love with the save stat. Barnes and Knebel weren't available today because you just had to get the hold and the save. I'd have confidence in almost every pitcher in our pen being able to hold a 3 run lead in the 9th but nope, had to use 5 relievers in a game that never got closer than 3 runs because reasons.

If Counsell goes to Torres to start the 6th last night, I'd feel pretty good about us getting out of the 6th with a 9-4 lead. Now he probably pinch hits for Torres in the bottom half but at that point Hughes or Drake can come in for a couple of innings saving Barnes and Hader at minimum and possibly Knebel as well making all three of them available today.

I get that you kind of half to manage in the now and worry about overworked bullpen arms when you get to them but you can prevent a lot of pitcher overuse by just thinking ahead for two minutes during the game and not using the "3 run game, have to use my closer" mentality.

"You also don't have to fall in love with the save stat"

Totally agree with this. Knebel has been a pleasant surprise, no doubt, but he's also been somewhat wild. Don't get me wrong, when he's "on", he's "on", but he walks an alarming amount of batters for a "shut down" closer. Closers tend to be one of the "sexy" positions in baseball, and they're often over-valued by fans. I mean, Hughes or Barnes could just as easily have the same save ratio for this team if they were given the chance, minus some of the "sexy" K's. And to your point, there have been a few times when Barnes has come in with great control and shut down the 8th inning. When he's obviously rolling, why not let him pitch the 9th as well? Why do we need to bring in Knebel just for the sake of padding his save stats? He's not Rivera or Hoffman, for Christ's sake. I just f*cking hate the tired practice of "every team MUST have a closer, therefore, whenever a save opportunity presents itself, my closer MUST pitch."

[El Duderino]

You also don't have to fall in love with the save stat. Barnes and Knebel weren't available today because you just had to get the hold and the save. I'd have confidence in almost every pitcher in our pen being able to hold a 3 run lead in the 9th but nope, had to use 5 relievers in a game that never got closer than 3 runs because reasons.

Come on

If Counsell were to use someone else in place of Barnes and/or Knebel in a game where we had a three run lead and that guy blew the game, plenty of fans would rail on him for not using his best guys and allowing a game which should have been won end up in a loss instead. Hell, fans whine all of the time if say their team is up four going into the 9th and a manager doesn't use his closer, but then the reliever used instead starts blowing the lead. Out comes the complaints that the manager is to worried about the save stats.

Sure some managers make more questionable decisions at times on when to pull or not pull a starter and how they use their bullpen guys in a given game, but it's a really really long 162 game baseball season and it's inevitable for any managers that quite a few of their decisions will blow up on them.

I've been on and reading sports forums for a long time and another thing that is a lock, tons of armchair managers reside on baseball forums of every team who like to believe that if only they were manager instead, far fewer decisions would blow up which is silly because if those fans were actually the manager, those same forums would be full of posters calling that fan an idiot for the numerous decisions which without question would also backfire on them.

When managers do countless things which work out well, few fans say great move there. When they backfire though, out come the pitchforks.

[Prickle]

I have a feeling the next couple weeks are gonna decide the future of this year's team. The Cubs look like they may be starting to go on their run, which was inevitable. Following this 10-game road trip, we have the Cubs and Cardinals at home, which, needless to say, are going to be absolutely huge series. Scoreboard watching is fun in July, but if we manage to sustain this lead into August, things will really get interesting. It's "house money" at this point; this season will most likely be considered a success regardless of whatever happens going forward.

[Mr Anonymous]

HFS, I hope the players on this team are better prepared to handle a day when they lose and the Cubs win than the people on this forum. Because guess what, it will happen again.

[coolhandluke121]

I'm not optimistic but maybe this will teach Counsell how to more effectively use the bullpen. Have a big lead going to the 6th on Friday and Davies obviously isn't pitching well, so instead of pulling the plug on him after 5, he allows him to put the tying runner on base in the 6th before pulling him.

If he pulls Davies before the start of the inning instead of trying to squeeze another inning out of him, we could possibly get out of the 6th with a 5 run lead and perhaps even more and then you could use Scahill to mop up instead of going with Torres, Hughes, Hader, Barnes and Knebel.

You also don't have to fall in love with the save stat. Barnes and Knebel weren't available today because you just had to get the hold and the save. I'd have confidence in almost every pitcher in our pen being able to hold a 3 run lead in the 9th but nope, had to use 5 relievers in a game that never got closer than 3 runs because reasons.

If Counsell goes to Torres to start the 6th last night, I'd feel pretty good about us getting out of the 6th with a 9-4 lead. Now he probably pinch hits for Torres in the bottom half but at that point Hughes or Drake can come in for a couple of innings saving Barnes and Hader at minimum and possibly Knebel as well making all three of them available today.

I get that you kind of half to manage in the now and worry about overworked bullpen arms when you get to them but you can prevent a lot of pitcher overuse by just thinking ahead for two minutes during the game and not using the "3 run game, have to use my closer" mentality.

I slightly agree but this isn't even close to egregious. El Dude is correct in his analysis of the options. I don't like the save stat much either, but you can't predict what will happen the next game so you should use your best relievers when there's a good argument for it. The worst thing you could do is use an inferior reliever and then end up not needing Knebel for 3 days, meaning you could have used him instead. Cross bullpen bridges when you get to them.

I would like to see the save stat gone completely. All decent relievers should get experience closing so that they're used to the pressure. Your best relievers should be used according to match-ups, not innings. And yes, he definitely left Davies in too long.

Why do you say you're not optimistic about CC learning or adapting? That's one of his greatest strengths in my opinion. He seems to have learned the very next day. We'll never know what Garza would have done in the next 2 innings, but he hasn't exactly earned the benefit of the doubt. Pulling a soft-toss starter before every hitter sees him for the 3rd time is a statistically smart move when you've got 13 pitchers and more help available in the minors, not to mention the most days off in baseball after the asg. You get an extra quality pa out of it as well, and the pinch-hitter hits a 2-run homer. That was awesome, and I'm willing to bet it was statistically the best move even though the bullpen blew it and most managers wouldn't do it.

I was really proud of him for playing the odds that way despite the comfort that goes with leaving Garza in when he was pitching effectively. The comfort level with leaving your starter in because you fear an outside-the-box decision blowing up in your face is the same thing keeping you from trying new (and potentially better) strategies in the bullpen. I have confidence that if situations and personnel allow it, CC won't be afraid to go against conventional wisdom in the bullpen as well. But he will need a good reason.

[coolhandluke121]

When managers do countless things which work out well, few fans say great move there. When they backfire though, out come the pitchforks.

That's why I originally had him down as "great" in the poll. I almost never have a complaint about a decision where I don't have to use hindsight to justify my complaint. I understand the dilemmas with some real weak links in the bullpen and with wanting to give talented guys like Broxton and Villar a lot of opportunities to turn it around, even when those things haven't worked out.

My biggest complaint that I will always stand by is letting the pitcher hit when there's a great chance you'll pull him next inning anyway. There's no excuse for that when you have such a versatile roster. They can optimize switches and bring up a talented pinch-hitter from either side of the plate in almost any situation. That goes hand-in-hand with leaving certain starters in a little too long, and it's the reason I changed my vote to "good". But last night he even remedied that. I'm not going to complain that it didn't work out. They just have to improve the personnel, which they're constantly doing.

[El Duderino]

When managers do countless things which work out well, few fans say great move there. When they backfire though, out come the pitchforks.

That's why I originally had him down as "great" in the poll. I almost never have a complaint about a decision where I don't have to use hindsight to justify my complaint. I understand the dilemmas with some real weak links in the bullpen and with wanting to give talented guys like Broxton and Villar a lot of opportunities to turn it around, even when those things haven't worked out.

My biggest complaint that I will always stand by is letting the pitcher hit when there's a great chance you'll pull him next inning anyway. There's no excuse for that when you have such a versatile roster.

I see NL managers do this a lot and the only reason i can think of is so many teams now carry 8 and even 9 man bullpens, so maybe they don't want to burn a bench hitter in say the 5th inning unless runners are on base. It does annoy me though at times also.