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Where have you guys ranked Pedro all time?!?

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Where have you guys ranked Pedro all time?!?

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:30 am
by Flaming Mo
I'm a huge Pedro fan but unfortunately I first got into baseball in 2004 so my knowledge is very limited when it comes to the past. I heard that Pedro's 1999 and 2000 season and propably the best a pitcher has ever had in the history of the game.

Now everyone's going crazy about Clemens and all but is the Rocket truly that much better than Pedro?!? Isn't it known that he did roids and that stuff?!?

Please help me out a little since I know some of you guys are true experts and I love to read stuff about Pedro...

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 1:21 pm
by Basketball Jesus
Koufax be damned, Pedro

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 1:32 pm
by Basketball Jesus
Re Pedro's 1999-2000 seasons:

Baseball Prospectus has a stat called "STUFF", which basically quantifies a pitcher's dominance in pitching categories with respect to league norms. A 10 is usually league average, a 20 All-Star level.

In his dominating 2004 season Johan Santana put up an absolute ridiculous Stuff total of 43 . When Clemens was slinging beebees down in Houston, he put up STFs of 30, 29, 33. On four occasions Sandy Koufax put up STFs in the mid-40s.

In 1999 Pedro Martinez had a STF of 66. In 2000, a 58. (2001 he put up a STF of 57 in limited innings)

The difference between Pedro's 1999 season and Santana's 2004 season, in terms of dominance is roughly the same as the difference between Roger Clemens in Houston vs. a league-average pitcher. That's mind-bogglingly awesome.

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 1:42 pm
by Flaming Mo
Thanks for the info man! Loving that stuff...

Damn, if I could just get some vids from back then, I would love to see some of those games. It's truly a shame that Pedro's body couldn't hold for a longer period of time.

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 2:18 pm
by Basketball Jesus
You should be able to find a lot of videos from 1999-2000 on YouTube. Especially the playoff game vs. Cleveland where he came out of the bullpen injured and pitched six no-hit innings.

From Wikipedia:

Martinez was a focal point of the 1999 playoffs against the Cleveland Indians. Starting the series opener, he was forced out of the game after 4 shutout innings due to a strained back with the Red Sox up 2-0. The Red Sox, however, lost the game 3-2. When the Indians also won the second game, it appeared that Martinez had thrown the last pitch of his wondrous 1999 season. Boston won the next two games to tie the series, but Martinez was still too injured to start the fifth and final game. However, neither team's starters were effective, and the game became a slugfest, tied at 8-8 at the end of 3 innings. Martinez entered the game as an emergency relief option. Unexpectedly, Martinez neutralized the Cleveland lineup with six no-hit innings for the win. He struck out eight and walked three, despite not being able to throw either his fastball or changeup with any command. Relying totally on his curve, Martinez and the Red Sox won the deciding game 12-8. Other than his 9 perfect innings in 1995 [see Memorable Games], this performance is often cited as Martinez's greatest.



Also look for the 1999 All-Star Game at Fenway when he struck out the first six batters.



Not only did Pedro Martinez lose a no-hitter going into the ninth against the Devil Rays during the 2000 season but, back in 1995, when he pitched for the Expos, he lost a perfect game bid in the 10th inning after giving up a hit in the bottom of the inning.

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:47 pm
by Flaming Mo
Basketball Jesus wrote:You should be able to find a lot of videos from 1999-2000 on YouTube. Especially the playoff game vs. Cleveland where he came out of the bullpen injured and pitched six no-hit innings.

From Wikipedia:

Martinez was a focal point of the 1999 playoffs against the Cleveland Indians. Starting the series opener, he was forced out of the game after 4 shutout innings due to a strained back with the Red Sox up 2-0. The Red Sox, however, lost the game 3-2. When the Indians also won the second game, it appeared that Martinez had thrown the last pitch of his wondrous 1999 season. Boston won the next two games to tie the series, but Martinez was still too injured to start the fifth and final game. However, neither team's starters were effective, and the game became a slugfest, tied at 8-8 at the end of 3 innings. Martinez entered the game as an emergency relief option. Unexpectedly, Martinez neutralized the Cleveland lineup with six no-hit innings for the win. He struck out eight and walked three, despite not being able to throw either his fastball or changeup with any command. Relying totally on his curve, Martinez and the Red Sox won the deciding game 12-8. Other than his 9 perfect innings in 1995 [see Memorable Games], this performance is often cited as Martinez's greatest.



Also look for the 1999 All-Star Game at Fenway when he struck out the first six batters.



Not only did Pedro Martinez lose a no-hitter going into the ninth against the Devil Rays during the 2000 season but, back in 1995, when he pitched for the Expos, he lost a perfect game bid in the 10th inning after giving up a hit in the bottom of the inning.


Thanks for the info man. I'm not sure if I will find something on youtube about him, they once had a great tribute about him and his time in Boston with some kinda slow song, was awesome.

Believe me, I already read the wikipedia part a couple of times. Always great to hear stories about his dominance...

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:51 pm
by Basketball Jesus
I know it

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:03 pm
by Flaming Mo
Basketball Jesus wrote:I know it

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:16 pm
by majorleads
I remember Pedro pitching against the Mets when he was with Montreal and he was flat out nasty back then. Just a great great great pitcher. Was he the best? Ehhh maybe maybe not. Lots of pitchers you can put in the best category. As far as stuff goes, he definitely has and had some of the nastiest pitches I've ever seen.

I hate Roger Clemens the juice head. He's the Barroid Bonds of pitching.

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:54 pm
by Flaming Mo
majorleads wrote:I hate Roger Clemens the juice head. He's the Barroid Bonds of pitching.


That's how I feel even without seeing him his entire career. Just can't stand that fat juice junkie...

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:01 pm
by Luv those Knicks
Basketball Jesus wrote:Re Pedro's 1999-2000 seasons:

Baseball Prospectus has a stat called "STUFF", which basically quantifies a pitcher's dominance in pitching categories with respect to league norms. A 10 is usually league average, a 20 All-Star level.

In his dominating 2004 season Johan Santana put up an absolute ridiculous Stuff total of 43 . When Clemens was slinging beebees down in Houston, he put up STFs of 30, 29, 33. On four occasions Sandy Koufax put up STFs in the mid-40s.

In 1999 Pedro Martinez had a STF of 66. In 2000, a 58. (2001 he put up a STF of 57 in limited innings)

The difference between Pedro's 1999 season and Santana's 2004 season, in terms of dominance is roughly the same as the difference between Roger Clemens in Houston vs. a league-average pitcher. That's mind-bogglingly awesome.



I'm curious how Guidry's crazy season, or Cone's best year, or Gooden's or some of Maddox's years would compare.

What about Relievers, like Eckersly's amazing years?

is an STF of 66 the best ever? Pedro did get that 1.7 something ERA in an era of offense, which is very impressive. Guidry, Gooden & Cone did theirs when the league's hitting wasn't what it is today.


anyway - great info, I was just curious for some more.

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:14 pm
by cmaff051
Luv those Knicks wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




I'm curious how Guidry's crazy season, or Cone's best year, or Gooden's or some of Maddox's years would compare.

What about Relievers, like Eckersly's amazing years?

is an STF of 66 the best ever? Pedro did get that 1.7 something ERA in an era of offense, which is very impressive. Guidry, Gooden & Cone did theirs when the league's hitting wasn't what it is today.


anyway - great info, I was just curious for some more.


Pedro Martinez has the highest single season ERA+ (which is adjusted and normalized for the era that each pitcher pitched in) in the modern era. He had a 285 ERA+ in 2000, and the only pitcher with a high ERA+ was Tim O'Keefe back in 1880 with a 294 ERA+.

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 1:42 am
by Basketball Jesus
Luv those Knicks wrote: I'm curious how Guidry's crazy season, or Cone's best year, or Gooden's or some of Maddox's years would compare.


Guidry's 1978 season he had a STF of 41. That's pretty damn good (cf Johan Santana 2004). David Cone, one of my all time favorites and probably the most underrated pitcher of the 1990s not named Kevin Brown, hovered in the mid-20s to mid-30s, topping at 41 in 1990. Maddux was between 20-30 for a long time. His numbers are somewhat low because he pitched in the National League and he generally played in front of an amazing defense. (STF factors in defensive quality in an indirect way.) Gooden put up a 52 in his rookie season, absolutely unheard of, then kind of petered out from there.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/guidrro01.php
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/coneda01.php
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/maddugr01.php
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/goodedw01.php



What about Relievers, like Eckersly's amazing years?


Relievers are at somewhat of a disadvantage as STF also factors in innings pitched, which is somewhat understandable because a guy like Eck pitching 82 innings of great baseball is not the same as Pedro Martinez pitching 200+ of great baseball. Eck put up some great years:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/eckerde01.php

Ditto Trevor Hoffman:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/hoffmtr01.php

Oddly enough, Fruit Bat has generally good, not great, STF numbers:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/riverma01.php

Tom Henke had outstanding numbers, posting two STFs of over 40:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/henketo01.php

Why he never garnered much attention for the Hall is one of the biggest injustices ever, right behind Lou Whitaker and Bert Blyleven.


is an STF of 66 the best ever? Pedro did get that 1.7 something ERA in an era of offense, which is very impressive. Guidry, Gooden & Cone did theirs when the league's hitting wasn't what it is today.


STF takes into account league averages and (roughly) normalizes them to the same across eras in that a 10 in 1988 is league average, just as a 10 in 2004 is league average, even though the dude from 1988 may have better raw numbers (ERA, K, etc).

I don't have a subscription to Baseball Prospectus so I can't find an all-time list, but in my countless hours of idle time at work, I have yet to come across anything higher than a 66. Randy Johnson has occasionally hit the high 50s, but that's it:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/johnsra05.php

Not even Clemens has come close:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/clemero02.php

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 12:25 pm
by Luv those Knicks
Interesting stuff & thanks for posting


Though - I do have some uncertainty of the accuracy of that.


Take Cone - his best STF year wasn't his best year. Same with Gooden.


I looked up a player from the past - Steve Blass, guy who used to be pretty good in Pittsburgh till one day he just couldn't pitch anymore.

But in 1972 he was 19-8 with a 2.49 era and he had an SFT of 2?

I find it hard to believe that was below average.


It's still very interesting stuff. They didn't have anything like this when I was really statistical.

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 2:15 pm
by Basketball Jesus
Though - I do have some uncertainty of the accuracy of that.


Take Cone - his best STF year wasn't his best year. Same with Gooden.


It

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 2:29 pm
by cmaff051
STF is an unneeded statistic, just use ERA+.

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 2:41 pm
by Basketball Jesus
Uh, no. ERA+ is fine and all, but all it does is normalize ERA to league averages/park factors. As in the case with Blass, ERA isn

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 2:45 pm
by cmaff051
Basketball Jesus wrote:Uh, no. ERA+ is fine and all, but all it does is normalize ERA to league averages/park factors. As in the case with Blass, ERA isn

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 3:03 pm
by Basketball Jesus
Or

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 9:37 pm
by Luv those Knicks
Basketball Jesus wrote:The thing with Blass is that you have to look past his ERA and his W-L record since both of those aren
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