The better GM: Brian Cashman or Theo Epstein

[Dr. Detfink]

Your thoughts on who has done a better job for their respective franchises. I'll sound off later on who I think is the better of the two GMs.

[pwayknicks]

obviously Epstein...

A tighter(although obviously not air tight) budget
A more complete baseball team who has had their way this decade
And a future that looks brighter...

Its clearly Epstein and the Sox.

[D Kakes]

As a Yanks fan and Cashman supporter, still gotta say Epstein... just look at the on-the-field success for the answer.

[nykgeneralmanager]

Hard to argue with the 2 rings so I won't make an argument for Cashman here, but I think people do get somewhat carried away when gushing over the young talent Boston has developed in recent years.

Jon Lester has turned into a phenominal pitcher so far, and the fact that he is a lefty just adds to his value. Couldn't be happier for the kid after what he went through. Clay Buchholz has not been good and he has been completely underwhelming in his short career. Sure you can get on Phil Hughes for the same thing, but Hughes has lost nearly 2 seasons due to injuries and is still 2 full years younger than Clay. And the way Hughes is throwing out of the pen right now has raised people's expectations of him once again. With the way Lester has pitched, the Sox have to get the edge here. Long-term though, I do still like Joba and Hughes both as starters, and if they pan out then 2 is better than 1.

In terms of the bullpen, Papelbon is one of the best closers in baseball. Bard has looked good as well, but Masterson has been below average. For more proof that producing a reliever is rather easy, look no further than Joba and Hughes being some of the best relievers in baseball during their time in the pen. Aside from that, Alfredo Aceves has been filthy and would be the 8th inning guy if Hughes wasn't that much more impressive. Phil Coke has quietly developed into one of the better left handed specialists, and if Melancon gets a fair shot he may prove as the long-term solution to the closer spot. David Robertson looks like a fixture in the pen as well if he would cut down his walks. My point is producing a reliever can only be so impressive, even Wang looked good there. However, since Papelbon is such a good closer, the edge has to go to the Sox again.

Everybody liked to talk about how Epstein beat Cashman out for Matsuzaka, well that backfired (although the Yanks did "win" the Igawa sweepstakes which evens that out). Way more impressive was Cashman's coup in Mexico, nabbing Aceves AND Manny Banuelos at the same time (who is now arguably a top 5 prospect for the Yankees at just 18 years old).

Look at Teixeira. Say what you want about the money, but Cashman completely stole him from right under Boston's noses.

Now position players is where it gets interesting. There is little to no doubt that Jacoby Ellsbury is one of the most overrated players to ever step foot on a baseball field. In what run producing lineup is it possibly good to have a lead-off hitter with a .335 OBP and no power? Yay, he is fast. So is Scott Podsednik. Ellsbury would be laughed at if he were the Yankees lead-off hitter, even though he would bat 9th. Brett Gardner is literally just as good, if not better, and one month younger...yet he is our 4th outfielder. Then you throw Melky in the mix, not that he is anything special but he is no worse than Ellsbury either.

Dustin Pedroia is a very good player, solid all around. MVP worthy? Not really, but I won't even get that mad over it because it was such a down year in the AL. His 124 OPS+ was good, but Cano's 126 OPS+ in 2006 was better and his 120 OPS+ in 2007 was nearly just as good. He had a down year last season but now once again he is having a better season than Pedroia. But hey, Cano is just a lazy bum while Pedroia is an MVP.

Even Francisco Cervelli looked very good after being called up straight from AA, to the point that many fans wanted to keep him on the roster over fan favorite Jose Molina after he returned from his injury.

Who else can you get excited about for Boston, Jed Lowrie? He isn't doing anything that Ramiro Pena didn't do for the Yankees earlier this season.

In terms of the farm system and the talent coming down the road, I think it is pretty even. Jesus Montero has become a consensus top 5 prospect in all of baseball as he is manhandling minor league pitching at 19 years old in AA. Lars Anderson may have a nice future, or he can just be another overhyped Red Sox position player because everybody takes Peter Gammons' word has fact, and we know what he usually has to say about any Sox prospect. After all, he is a left handed power bat with just 8 home runs and 85 strikeouts and a .397 SLG% in 320 AB in AAA so far this season.

Austin Jackson is producing in AAA although he needs to cut down on his Ks, but his overall skill set and athleticism gives a lot of hope for his future and he will be in the Bronx pretty soon. Josh Reddick is a solid prospect, but not on Jackson's level. Michael Bowden has had a solid year in AAA, but he can't strike anybody out and he walks too many guys and is very much so a fly ball pitcher, so that won't translate to the majors.

Overall, the young pitching edge (for now) is Boston's. In terms of the position players, the media needs to get their heads out of the *** of guys like Ellsbury and Pedroia and realize they are no better than guys like Gardner, Melky, and Cano. As for the top talent in the farm system, the Yankees have the edge IMO.

[jeff1624]

^^Jed Lowrie is better than Ramiro Peña, That shouldn't even be discussed. Lowrie was pretty good for them last year to the point that they decided to make him the Starting SS over a guy they were paying 8 mil a year. Ramiro Pena is a defensive specialist and that's all he'll ever be.

You're also forgetting Manny Delcarmen who has been lights out the past 3 years. Pretty good reliever. Justin Masterson isn't "below Average" either. He was excellent as a starter last year. He has looked best pitching 5-6 innings instead of coming out of the pen.

Alfredo Aceves was just pure luck for this team, this team had no plans for him. Just another run of the mill Reliever who could easily be replaced a la Dan Giese etc. He was pretty good last year yet he was sent down this year for the likes of Johnathan Albaladejo. Sure he's been lights out but if he wasn't most people wouldn't even mention him as a flop because he wasn't really expected to do much.

I despise the red sox including Theo Epstein, but, he's easily been the better GM. When you look at that team, most of them were home grown or acquired when said players value was at an all time low.

When was the last time we acquired someone when his value was low and turned into a big time player for us??

[nykgeneralmanager]

^^Jed Lowrie is better than Ramiro Peña, That shouldn't even be discussed. Lowrie was pretty good for them last year to the point that they decided to make him the Starting SS over a guy they were paying 8 mil a year. Ramiro Pena is a defensive specialist and that's all he'll ever be.

You're also forgetting Manny Delcarmen who has been lights out the past 3 years. Pretty good reliever. Justin Masterson isn't "below Average" either. He was excellent as a starter last year. He has looked best pitching 5-6 innings instead of coming out of the pen.

Alfredo Aceves was just pure luck for this team, this team had no plans for him. Just another run of the mill Reliever who could easily be replaced a la Dan Giese etc. He was pretty good last year yet he was sent down this year for the likes of Johnathan Albaladejo. Sure he's been lights out but if he wasn't most people wouldn't even mention him as a flop because he wasn't really expected to do much.

I despise the red sox including Theo Epstein, but, he's easily been the better GM. When you look at that team, most of them were home grown or acquired when said players value was at an all time low.

When was the last time we acquired someone when his value was low and turned into a big time player for us??

Lowrie is certainly a big prospect, but in terms of production to date there hasn't been much there and he has dealt with injuries. Of course Pena isn't on the same level as Lowrie long-term, but everybody got their panties in a bunch that Lowrie reached the majors, he didn't do much last year not just in the majors but even in AAA. He also is already 25, so its not like he has years of still developing in his low 20s.

Delcarmen is a solid reliever, but he is already 27 and I'm talking about the younger guys that have recently been called up or in the case of Cano, guys who often get compared to others (in comparison to Pedroia).

How could you say Aceves was luck? Just because he wasn't a 1st rd pick doesn't mean it is luck, if anything that means the scouting department should be given credit for finding a diamond in the rough in an area which other teams have not even considered scouting much to this point.

The Yankees have 25 active players and 3 more on the DL, of those 28, 15 were "home grown." Of the 29 current Red Sox players (4 on the DL), 12 have been home grown. So where does Boston get bonus points for being home grown? I don't understand the point of getting guys when their value was low, the only guy I can think of is David Ortiz. They had to trade Manny for Bay, they overpaid JD Drew in many people's eyes, they gave up Hanley for Beckett (although Lowell has been a very nice throw in for that deal), they paid a king's ransom for Matsuzaka. Yeah, they got Penny and Smoltz at low value and their ERAs are 5.02 and 6.31 respectively. Another guy they got at low value was Baldelli, who is hitting .266 with a .337 OBP. So they got all these players at low value and only have Ortiz and Lowell to show for it...hooray?

Like I said, I won't make an argument that Cashman is BETTER than Epstein. However, this perception from the media that Epstein is a prodigy and a genuis while Cashman should be fired is laughable. The major league team is arguably better, and I'd argue the Yankees system over the Sox's any day.

[jeff1624]

I gave boston bonus points for home grown talent, Because most if not all are major contributers. Most of ours are utilitiy players easily replaced. Jeter, Posada, Cano, Mo, Chamberlain, Hughes and Wang being the most important.

Most of our contributers have been bought: Teixeira, Sabathia, Burnett, Matsui, Damon, A-Rod while boston only has Drew, Beckett and Jason Bay I guess.

I emphazise on acquireing player when their values are low because IMO that helps a team the most. Getting players back without giving much and seeing said player bloom and become a major part of the team is HUGE and something we use to do back in the late 90's. Paul O'Neill, Devid Wells, Scott Brosius etc. I've seen boston do this a lot of times this decade and in the process they've turned into the reason they won back in 04 or 07: David Ortiz, Mike Lowell, Mark Bellhorn, Kevin Millar and Bill Mueller were all major factors.

[Pharmcat]

is this a joke?

theo by a mile

[bishnykfan]

When was the last time we acquired someone when his value was low and turned into a big time player for us??

How has Wilson Betemit for Nick Swisher worked out? Could his value have been any lower after last year. While it is way to early to tell, Hinske has worked out pretty well so far. Cashman, regularly gets guys with little to no value and has them work out. Hopefully Mitre will pitch as well as Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon did a few years back. Aaron Boone's value wasn't all that high when we got him and that worked out pretty well.

Basically, when you deal with teams like the Red Sox and the Yanks, you will always be able to find these gems. Cashman has had his share of good ones just as he has had his share of flops.

[Dr. Detfink]

I still haven't forgiven Cashman for Carl Pavano. Cashman even tried to convince Hal Steinbrenner to pick up his 13 million option.

[nykgeneralmanager]

Not to bring this thread back to life, but I wasn't sure of a few things and went back just to make sure.

Lester and Delcarmen were both already in the system when Theo took over for the Sox.

So he has Ellsbury (no better than Gardner or Melky overall)...Pedroia (3 out of his 4 seasons have been worse than Cano's)...Buchholz (worse than both Hughes and Joba and 2 years older than them, closer to Kennedy than those two).

Papelbon is incredible, and Bard has been lights out but in the bullpen where even Aceves, Hughes, and Joba have been studs.

Lars Anderson? Can't hold Montero's jock, and why doesn't anybody see a red flag when the Red Sox offered Teixeira as much money as we did, and are now rumored to be hot for Adrian Gonzalez? Reddick? Not on AJax's level. Bowden? Average prospect, what makes him much better than Ian Kennedy or a guy like McAllister. Masterson? Not any better than Aceves. Lowrie? Wrist injuries, no production, 25 years old...hard to get excited over him.

You can get excited over the Sox prospects just because ESPN does, but I would argue that the Yankees have more quality from top to bottom, including guys already in the majors.

[pwayknicks]

Forget how "talented" you THINK the Yankees prospects are, or Yankees in general are, and how "bad" the Red Sox prospects are or team "is"...

And just think for 1 second about the following, and you will then know that THeo has been the far better GM:

1. What has the Yankees average payroll been since Cashman was GM?
2. What has the Red Sox overall payroll since Theo has been GM?
3. How many championships do the Yankees have?
4. How many championships do the Red Sox have?

That will tell how far apart the 2 are..

[nykgeneralmanager]

Forget how "talented" you THINK the Yankees prospects are, or Yankees in general are, and how "bad" the Red Sox prospects are or team "is"...

And just think for 1 second about the following, and you will then know that THeo has been the far better GM:

1. What has the Yankees average payroll been since Cashman was GM?
2. What has the Red Sox overall payroll since Theo has been GM?
3. How many championships do the Yankees have?
4. How many championships do the Red Sox have?

That will tell how far apart the 2 are..

Average payroll is useless, the Yankees are #1 and the Red Sox are #2 in payroll so lets not make it seem as if Boston struggles in a smaller market or can't keep up. Both teams have the resources to get anybody they want at any point in time. Theo went and dropped $100 million on Matsuzaka, even Igawa+Pavano only come out to about 75% of that. Theo was also willing to give Tex the money that Cashman did, Tex just chose to play for the Yankees. So lets not pretend the Red Sox are working with so much less here.

You're right, the Red Sox won 2 more championships in the past 6 years. Meanwhile, if the Yankees don't blow that 3-0 lead then each have 1 ring each, so once again its not as if Boston has been so far ahead of the Yankees in that sense. The Yankees have consistently been the better team winning more games and division titles, the playoffs are a crapshoot in the end as I pointed out how easily each team could've won 1 WS each. But hey, Boston has 2, so if that's how you want to judge a GM then sure Epstein is better. Why just look at everything since 2004, though? With Cashman at the helm, the Yankees have 3 rings and 5 pennants. Personally I feel there are way more variables that factor into the results.

[VinnyTheMick]

Forget how "talented" you THINK the Yankees prospects are, or Yankees in general are, and how "bad" the Red Sox prospects are or team "is"...

And just think for 1 second about the following, and you will then know that THeo has been the far better GM:

1. What has the Yankees average payroll been since Cashman was GM?
2. What has the Red Sox overall payroll since Theo has been GM?
3. How many championships do the Yankees have?
4. How many championships do the Red Sox have?

That will tell how far apart the 2 are..

I'm not even debating that Theo has been the better GM but let's get serious here.

- Yankees & Sox outspend everyone. Discussing payroll differences when they are #1 & 2 in the league is useless.

- So, because Torre kept Gordon in too long Theo is a better GM? Because Torre didn't order the offense to bunt on Schilling Theo is the better GM?

The argument cannot be that simple.

[Dr. Detfink]

There's definitely something to be said about Cashman haven't nearly 70 million more to spend or error (for now) than Theo Epstein.

I think Theo is the better scout. His background suggests that. However, he shouldn't be let off the hook for JD Drew 14 million who was an interchangeable 4th outfielder till this season. Matsuzaka's 50 million just to negotiate might have been worth it for a plate nibbler. Jason Bay is entering Nick Swisher company with his average plummeting and his production decreasing. So far the Smoltz experiment hasn't worked.

Why didn't Theo trade Clay Buchholtz when his value was at an all time high with the no-hitter? He hasn't been too unbeatable after his third start.

I think what irritated me last season were all the un-necessary moves. Richie Sexson last year? Geezus. Daryl Rasner, Sidney Ponson (again) to take the spots of Hughes and Kennedy. Lastly Carl ****' Pavano, the American idle.

[sully00]

While the budget is always a factor the thing for Cashman is that he had to deal with George spending a lot of that money. I can think of at least four big money moves that Cashman had not choice about Brown, Johnson, Sheffield, Rodriguez and resigning him. While Cash has a huge budget a lot of it is spent and little of it is flexible.

Rings are rings but people always have a crazy way of evaluating a farm system. Cash won rings with other peoples players too.

If Carl Pavano is the ulltimate failure for Cashman what does is say about Epstein who was right there with him, doing home visits with Curt Schilling. He chose the Yankees instead so it makes Theo a great GM and Cashman stupid? Same for Contreras.

The funny thing about Theo is that he had so little to do with the critical moves that have impacted the team in recent years. He hasn't traded away his kids and he drafted some good ones for sure. But a lot of what has gone right for them was luck. Nomar turning down the extension, David Ortiz, hell he didn't draft Hanley Ramirez or trade him for Josh Beckett but it had a huge impact on his run.

Going forward the Yankees have to win for it to matter. But it isn't nearly as cut and dry as people want to make it out

[Dr. Detfink]

George Steinbrenner hasn't been relevant since 2004. Cashman fought for power after that.

It was Cashman who went for Bobby Abreu who had a terrible contract. Fought for Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa. Signed Richie Sexson, Tim Redding, Sidney Ponson TWICE. Cashman passed on final offer of Wang and Melky for Johan Santana who would have been along CC and AJ in the rotation.

It wasn't until Hal and Hank ok'd for Teixiera otherwise, it was Nick "the quick" Swisher at 1B.

[nykgeneralmanager]

George Steinbrenner hasn't been relevant since 2004. Cashman fought for power after that.

It was Cashman who went for Bobby Abreu who had a terrible contract. Fought for Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa. Signed Richie Sexson, Tim Redding, Sidney Ponson TWICE. Cashman passed on final offer of Wang and Melky for Johan Santana who would have been along CC and AJ in the rotation.

It wasn't until Hal and Hank ok'd for Teixiera otherwise, it was Nick "the quick" Swisher at 1B.

It's very easy to just name what he did wrong. Why are you looking past the fact that Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon literally saved an entire season for us getting us to the postseason? Are you really mad about signing guys like Tim Redding and Sidney Ponson for $500,000 as a last resort after guys get hurt, you make it sound like they were big off-season acquisitions to be our #3 starters. And if you are so angry about those signings, why give Epstein a free pass for Bartolo Colon, Brad Penny, John Smotlz, etc.? Probably just because it helps the Yankees when those guys suck so you aren't mad about the signings.

Why give Epstein a free pass for having a closer by committee bullpen a few years ago? Keith Foulke leading the team in saves with a 5.69 ERA, nice. You have a 90 win team and you don't even get a closer? It seems like you forgot the genius signing of Matt Clement, which makes sense because it wasn't Brian Cashman's idea. Then there was always the rotation that had David Wells/Matt Clement/Wade Miller in it, to go along with Bronson Arroyo. Coco Crisp anybody? How about Edgar Renteria or Julio Lugo? My point is both GMs have made their terrible moves, both have made their great ones. To sit there and pick out Cashman's mistakes while completely ignoring that Epstein ever made any is foolish.

[sully00]

George Steinbrenner hasn't been relevant since 2004. Cashman fought for power after that.

It was Cashman who went for Bobby Abreu who had a terrible contract. Fought for Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa. Signed Richie Sexson, Tim Redding, Sidney Ponson TWICE. Cashman passed on final offer of Wang and Melky for Johan Santana who would have been along CC and AJ in the rotation.

It wasn't until Hal and Hank ok'd for Teixiera otherwise, it was Nick "the quick" Swisher at 1B.

What? Bobby Abreu had a terrible contract? You mean the two years 30 mil? Obviously it is awful compared to the 5 years and 70 mil the Sox gave Drew the next offseason. Besides Pavano the rest is small potato moves. And if you believe that the Twins would have taken Wang and Cabrera for Santana then I am wasting my time and if you think we would have CC and Johan well go back to the video games.

The last 3 seasons this has, Arod aside, been Cashman's team. These are for the most part his signings, trades, kids, and manager. Doesn't mean nothing till Oct. but right now he is looking pretty smart.