BACK TO THE BRONX: TOR @ NYY. Thur., April 26 @ 7:05 p.m. ET

[34Celtic]

cmaff you can't have a game 5 without winning a game 4. all hands would be on deck in game 5

[cmaff051]

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ok genius how is Hughes suppose to develope arm strength and stamina if he's pulled in the 5th and 6th inning ?

Justice said it perfectly they said Phil is a thoroughbred a work horse who exceeds when he is challenged what's up w/ babying him, a pitch count of 89 -90 com'on bro the pitch count is overrated these days your lucky to get a SP past the 5th inning under Torre this will never happen because a couple of basehits and he's itchin' for the phone already.

Either he has it or not they need to find out all this BS about him getting hurt dude he's 20 years old !!!! he can recover quicker at this rate he might get pass the 90 pitch count at 25 and by then I guess we will be missing the playoffs if it's like that.

Man, I agree with most of what you say but not here.

This pitch count has NOTHING to do with Torre. Nothing. He is being put on a pitch count by the Yankee brass. Nothing Torre can do about it.

Keeping him on an innings/pitch count limit is the best thing for him in the long run. Trust me on this. People forget he is only 20. He's still very young.

34celtic, answer my question please. I see you've ignored it 2 times already.

[34Celtic]

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ok genius how is Hughes suppose to develope arm strength and stamina if he's pulled in the 5th and 6th inning ?

Justice said it perfectly they said Phil is a thoroughbred a work horse who exceeds when he is challenged what's up w/ babying him, a pitch count of 89 -90 com'on bro the pitch count is overrated these days your lucky to get a SP past the 5th inning under Torre this will never happen because a couple of basehits and he's itchin' for the phone already.

Either he has it or not they need to find out all this BS about him getting hurt dude he's 20 years old !!!! he can recover quicker at this rate he might get pass the 90 pitch count at 25 and by then I guess we will be missing the playoffs if it's like that.

Do you understand that it is not Torre who set him up with this pitch count. If you have followed his minor league career all along you will have noticed that He is always on a strict pitch count. Last year I believe they took him out with a no-hitter because he reached his limit. This is why he only reached 146 innings last year. Now do I agree with this? No. But you can't blame Torre for something the organization has done all along.

[NYKnSTILL!]

no both of you don't understand what I'm saying I know yesterday he was in a pitch count that ain't Torre's fault. But when it's all said and done and the brass releases the locks he still won't let him throw past the 6 inning.

don't know why you're being so confrontational with everything that is being said that you don't agree with. I was merely saying it in jest. I know he's trying to run a winning team and keep them in the game at all times, but there's a reason that our bullpen is decimated, Joe's superquick hook with the starters.

pitch counts for each pitcher:
pavano 73 79
pettitte 83 96 101 100
mussina 84 44
igawa 97 95 92 97
rasner 76 78 81
wright 104 70
karstens 89
wang 81
hughes 91

I don't know why when approaching 100 pitches, it immediately means that a pitcher needs to be taken out. There's been 3 starts at 100 or over, and rookie chase wright had the start with the most # of pitches.

[34Celtic]

no both of you don't understand what I'm saying I know yesterday he was in a pitch count that ain't Torre's fault. But when it's all said and done and the brass releases the locks he still won't let him throw past the 6 inning.

don't know why you're being so confrontational with everything that is being said that you don't agree with. I was merely saying it in jest. I know he's trying to run a winning team and keep them in the game at all times, but there's a reason that our bullpen is decimated, Joe's superquick hook with the starters.

pitch counts for each pitcher:
pavano 73 79
pettitte 83 96 101 100
mussina 84 44
igawa 97 95 92 97
rasner 76 78 81
wright 104 70
karstens 89
wang 81
hughes 91

I don't know why when approaching 100 pitches, it immediately means that a pitcher needs to be taken out. There's been 3 starts at 100 or over, and rookie chase wright had the start with the most # of pitches.

Do you understand that your sample size here consits of pitchers who either A) are unexperienced B) hurt C) pitching in 35 degree temperature or D) All of the above.

You mean to tell me you feel more confident with Chase Wright or Karstens or Igawa then Proctor out there?

[NYKnSTILL!]

I'll put this into more perspective

The Yankees 7 IP

Pettitte 100 pitches in 7.0 IP (2nd)
Pavano 79 pitches in 7.0 IP (2nd)

The Yankees 6 IP

Pettitte 101 pitches in 6.1 IP (3rd)
Igawa 92 pitches in 6.0 IP (3rd)
Wang 81 pitches in 6.0 IP (1st)

don't even get me started w/ the 5 inning hooks.

How is a staff suppose to improve here.

[NYKnSTILL!]

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Do you understand that your sample size here consits of pitchers who either A) are unexperienced B) hurt C) pitching in 35 degree temperature or D) All of the above.

You mean to tell me you feel more confident with Chase Wright or Karstens or Igawa then Proctor out there?

you like to change the subject too much, my point is Torre is not doing a good job sometimes the SP must take a hit in order to go forward. If his hook is going to be so quick then what the hell is going to change w/ our staff. You might not like it and just plainly avoid it too much but Joe Torre is going to get fired.



if they lose tonight they might get knocked into a 2 month battle to regain games because the Redsox are a good team this year and w/ Lester coming back gaining ground is not going to be easy.

[cmaff051]

no both of you don't understand what I'm saying I know yesterday he was in a pitch count that ain't Torre's fault. But when it's all said and done and the brass releases the locks he still won't let him throw past the 6 inning.

don't know why you're being so confrontational with everything that is being said that you don't agree with. I was merely saying it in jest. I know he's trying to run a winning team and keep them in the game at all times, but there's a reason that our bullpen is decimated, Joe's superquick hook with the starters.

pitch counts for each pitcher:
pavano 73 79
pettitte 83 96 101 100
mussina 84 44
igawa 97 95 92 97
rasner 76 78 81
wright 104 70
karstens 89
wang 81
hughes 91

I don't know why when approaching 100 pitches, it immediately means that a pitcher needs to be taken out. There's been 3 starts at 100 or over, and rookie chase wright had the start with the most # of pitches.

I agree with you so much here. Whenever anybody is approaching 90-95 pitches, he takes them out. It's stupid. It's counterproductive. It overworks our bullpen.

But he's going to have to take out Hughes after 90 pitches regardless. But every other pitcher on our staff should make 100 pitches every time they start. No excuses. Unless they get really rocked.

[NYKnSTILL!]

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I agree with you so much here. Whenever anybody is approaching 90-95 pitches, he takes them out. It's stupid. It's counterproductive. It overworks our bullpen.

But he's going to have to take out Hughes after 90 pitches regardless. But every other pitcher on our staff should make 100 pitches every time they start. No excuses. Unless they get really rocked.

No I know the next start Hughes will pitch if nothing changes and this is the pattern for 07' then plainly we won't make the playoffs and Torre one way or another is setting up his termination as the manager of the NY Yankees.

[cmaff051]

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No I know the next start Hughes will pitch if nothing changes and this is the pattern for 07' then plainly we won't make the playoffs and Torre one way or another is setting up his termination as the manager of the NY Yankees.

Wait. Are you saying that if Hughes only gets 90 pitches/6 innings a game for the rest of the year that we aren't going to make the playoffs?

Or are you talking about all the other pitchers?

[NYKnSTILL!]

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Wait. Are you saying that if Hughes only gets 90 pitches/6 innings a game for the rest of the year that we aren't going to make the playoffs?

Or are you talking about all the other pitchers?

[Jitpal]

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you like to change the subject too much, my point is Torre is not doing a good job sometimes the SP must take a hit in order to go forward. If his hook is going to be so quick then what the hell is going to change w/ our staff. You might not like it and just plainly avoid it too much but Joe Torre is going to get fired.

(picture)

if they lose tonight they might get knocked into a 2 month battle to regain games because the Redsox are a good team this year and w/ Lester coming back gaining ground is not going to be easy.

Don't worry about the Red Sox. We have 13 more games against them after this weekend. So even if we do fall behind 8 or so games we can easily come back by taking care of business at Fenway and at Yankee stadium. -Jitpal

[NYKnSTILL!]

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Don't worry about the Red Sox. We have 13 more games against them after this weekend. So even if we do fall behind 8 or so games we can easily come back by taking care of business at Fenway and at Yankee stadium. -Jitpal

oh really so we're going to 8 - 0 them like nothing right ?

did you forget Schilling, Wakefield and Lester were out most of last year, their pitching depth is better than ours and their bullpen has more stability than ours. So again this is a new season going down 8 games don't expect Torre to stay after that he already is hanging by a string. Add to that they had scrubs pitching the bullpen and a young Hansens, add to that Beckett couldn't get pass the 4 inning

[34Celtic]

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oh really so we're going to 8 - 0 them like nothing right ?

did you forget Schilling, Wakefield and Lester were out most of last year, their pitching depth is better than ours and their bullpen has more stability than ours. So again this is a new season going down 8 games don't expect Torre to stay after that he already is hanging by a string. Add to that they had scrubs pitching the bullpen and a young Hansens, add to that Beckett couldn't get pass the 4 inning

I agree!!!!!!!! Jitpal is the biggest Yankee homer on this board, with him nothing is wrong.

I understand you guys feel Torre should leave his pitchers in the game longer, I feel like our bullpen is overused too, but its the health of our rotation to blame. He only trusts Pettite and Wang, who has made only one start. He has nothing to work with. Would I like to see him lay into someone? yes. But i think once our pitching starts to get healthy we should be able to bounce back. If our pitching doesn't get healthy soon, nothing is going to change.

[cmaff051]

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I agree!!!!!!!! Jitpal is the biggest Yankee homer on this board, with him nothing is wrong.

I understand you guys feel Torre should leave his pitchers in the game longer, I feel like our bullpen is overused too, but its the health of our rotation to blame. He only trusts Pettite and Wang, who has made only one start. He has nothing to work with. Would I like to see him lay into someone? yes. But i think once our pitching starts to get healthy we should be able to bounce back. If our pitching doesn't get healthy soon, nothing is going to change.

He doesn't even trust Pettite and Wang. What ever happened to letting your 2 main staff horses battle out of their own jams? Torre doesn't let them do that, he just goes straight to the bullpen.

What ever happened to your staff aces making 105-110 pitches a game? All other managers do this, Joey Four Rings doesn't.

[NYKnSTILL!]

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He doesn't even trust Pettite and Wang. What ever happened to letting your 2 main staff horses battle out of their own jams? Torre doesn't let them do that, he just goes straight to the bullpen.

thank you that's exactly my whole F'n point !!!!!

Dammit where is NYKGM to back this , I know how he feels about Torre but has gone in hiding eversince !!!

Pettitte and Wang are the perfect examples , he doesn't even let them get out of their own mess , it's always get the bullpen going , if your a 90 pitches in the 4th forget going 6 innings because Torre doesn't let you !! look at Dice K unimpressive but Francona let him go 8 innings vs us and that's what won them the game.

[Jitpal]

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oh really so we're going to 8 - 0 them like nothing right ?

did you forget Schilling, Wakefield and Lester were out most of last year, their pitching depth is better than ours and their bullpen has more stability than ours. So again this is a new season going down 8 games don't expect Torre to stay after that he already is hanging by a string. Add to that they had scrubs pitching the bullpen and a young Hansens, add to that Beckett couldn't get pass the 4 inning

We have 13 games after this weekend. Winning 8 of those 13 is not a big thing. We can do it. I'm not saying it is an automatic win but it is possible. We have our injuries now and they will have theirs too. We will win games later on against other teams too. Mid-june when the Orioles and Devil Rays drop out of it and their injury prone players go down like they do every year we will get wins there too. It isn't over, or anywhere near it. It is not time to panic, it is only April. We just have to take care of our business and it will all work out.

Their starters have more depth, sure, but as we proved last weekend, we can hit them so I'm not too worried. Their bullpen doesn't scare me, Papelbon is good but their middle relief is pretty poor. Do the job in the first 8 innings and the 9th won't matter. Beckett gave up 9 hits and 5 runs against us. Beckett always develops blisters and goes down for months. He pitched 200 innings one year(last year) but he hovers much closer to 150. Matsuzaka is fresh and while he has a lot of pitches the more the Yanks see him the better they will hit him. He also gave up 8 hits and 6 runs. I'm really shaking. This guy is the wild card for them. He hasn't had arm problems before but he hasn't been put through the paces of the AL east yet. Let's see how that goes. I also remember reading somewhere that in Japan when he started the year he pitches in the low 90s and by the end he ends up in the high 80s to 90. 8 hits and 5 runs for Schilling. This guy isn't as good as he used to be. He is a gamer and will gear up for the big games but he isn't unhittable. Their rotation does not scare me. We have hit them before and we will hit them again. As I said Matsuzaka is a wild card and let's see how he does tonight. Francona was going on about how Matsuzaka wasn't right, let's see how he fares tonight. With Boston, it isn't a pitching duel, it is a slug fest. When our pitching gets healthy we should be fine. -Jitpal

[34Celtic]

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Their starters have more depth, sure, but as we proved last weekend, we can hit them so I'm not too worried.

More Depth is an understatement.

Papelbon is good

Guys great hes got huge balls

This guy is the wild card for them. He hasn't had arm problems before but he hasn't been put through the paces of the AL east yet. Let's see how that goes. I also remember reading somewhere that in Japan when he started the year he pitches in the low 90s and by the end he ends up in the high 80s to 90.

The guy threw 200 pitches in a start in high school. Won the MVP of the world Baseball classic, is close to the lead league in baseball. It doesn't take glasses to see he has talent.

Jitpal, while I value your opinion I think you should open your eyes about the Sox. It doesn't take much to see they are the more talented and healthier team right now. Don't knock their players just because you are a Yankees fan. I'm a Yankees fan first, baseball fan second. You can see that Matsuzaka has talent, Igawa doesn't. Their bullpen is not as bad as ours. That lefty Japanese guy did a good job last weekend against us.

[Jitpal]

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The guy threw 200 pitches in a start in high school. Won the MVP of the world Baseball classic, is close to the lead league in baseball. It doesn't take glasses to see he has talent.

Jitpal, while I value your opinion I think you should open your eyes about the Sox. It doesn't take much to see they are the more talented and healthier team right now. Don't knock their players just because you are a Yankees fan. I'm a Yankees fan first, baseball fan second. You can see that Matsuzaka has talent, Igawa doesn't. Their bullpen is not as bad as ours. That lefty Japanese guy did a good job last weekend against us.

I never said Matsuzaka was untalented but has he had a full season of AL east baseball? He has been good so far, not great, unless you think owning the Royals is that big of an acomplishment. However, with most pitchers who have come from Japan they have a year or two of great pitching but then it catches up to them. Hideo Nomo comes to mind. Their pen is better than last year but guys like Del Carmen, Hansen and Donnelly don't scare me. Papelbon is good, but the more times we see him the better chance we will have of hitting him. Plus, if we take care of business in the first 8 innings then Papelbon shouldn't prove to be much of a problem because he won't enter the game with the Red Sox down 2-3 runs in the 9th.

Their rotation when healthy compared to our rotation when healthy is not too different. Schilling or Wang? Pettitte or Beckett? The top 2 match up nicely. Then there is Matsuzaka, Lester and Wakefield against Moose, Hughes/Wright/Pavano/Karstens/Rasner. They have a little more experience in the backend than we do. Middle relief, I'll take our guys when healthy over guys like Donelly and Hansen. Papelbon vs. Mariano? At this point in their careers they are comparable. We got hit with a ton of injuries in the begining and Boston will hit their too. That's when we will gain ground. Boston is good, but they have their flaws. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. -Jitpal

Edit: Also I forgot to mention that out of the gate a lot of our guys started off slow for who they are or what they are capable of other than Arod and Abreu who are now cooling off from their excellent beginings. Giambi, Cano, Melky, Doug and Damon which was 5/9ths of our order on a regular basis started off hitting pretty awful for what they are capable of. I know Cano is hitting .308 now but he was doing much worse and .308 and .342 last year is a big difference. Giambi has started hitting now to give Arod some protection so that should help. With all the injuries and slow starts by guys being a couple games out of first is to be expected. Conversely on the Boston side of things, the only guy who was really playing poorly up until a week ago was Manny. Everyone else was playing at their level or above it and they will hit their slumps too. We just got compounded with a few problems. Lineups consisting of Melky, Doug and Nieves are not going to win games against solid starting pitching. -Jitpal

[34Celtic]

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I know Cano is hitting .308 now but he was doing much worse and .308 and .342 last year is a big difference. Giambi has started hitting now to give Arod some protection so that should help. With all the injuries and slow starts by guys being a couple games out of first is to be expected. Conversely on the Boston side of things, the only guy who was really playing poorly up until a week ago was Manny. Everyone else was playing at their level or above it and they will hit their slumps too. We just got compounded with a few problems. Lineups consisting of Melky, Doug and Nieves are not going to win games against solid starting pitching. -Jitpal

Cano did not start off bad...
He hit a little slide in the Cleveland series and that is it

Giambi better give Arod protection and he should, or else it will be a long year

Our lineups will consist of Melky a few times per week as Torre will have to give guys days off, Dougie will get his starts too as his glove is great. Nieves will have to start 1-2 days a week to give Posada a rest.

HITTING IS NOT OUR WORRY, OUR PITCHING IS. We lead the league in runs scored. OUR ERA IS 25TH. IN PART BECAUSE OUR FIELDING PERCENTAGE is TIED FOR 4TH WORST.

This team has glaring weaknesses. The pitching better get healthy soon or else the deficit is going to be too much to overcome