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for all minor league players, cant believe SD did not hold out for a MLB player like buckholz or something

seems like they went for a value package, i think they couldve done better

Welcome to the difference between Theo Epstein and Brian Cashman.

Theo knows how to rape a team in a deal. Cashman knows how to tack on un-necessary about of years and tells the brass, "Sabremetrics as proven Kei Igawa is just as good as Dice-K for half the price."

Still not worried, though the infield defense is bolstered with Adrian, Youk, the midget, and a gaping hole at SS. Plus, the Sox OF scares no one....Who's catching?

And how does Boston feel about still paying off Dice-K & Beckett? Two guys whose arm might come off at any time (though it did get them a WS)...

So you're going to sit there and rag on Cashman for not fleecing teams for major top-tier players, but then you contradict yourself by saying "And how does Boston feel about still paying off Dice-K & Beckett." Who did you think made the decision to sign Dice-K, Beckett, and Lackey (another player on a terrible contract)?

Red Sox potential lineup:
1) Pedroia
2) Crawford
3) Gonzalez
4) Youkillis
5) Ortiz
6) Drew
7) Saltamacchia
8) Ellsbury
9) Scutaro
Cameron and Varitek off the bench. That's pretty good and solves imo their biggest problem which was a lack of true 3/4/5 hitters. Drew, Ortiz and Youkillis are all good enough to fill in one or two of those spots but nobody really puts fear into pitchers like Gonzalez/Tex/Pujols/Cano/Cabrera etc. Pedroia Crawford would be lethal at the top of the order, probably comparable to our 09 Jeter Damon. If they do get Crawford, Ellsbury looks like the odd man out. Maybe they move him in a deal for a better shortstop or catcher but I can't think of any deal that makes any sense considering how thin the Shortstop position is.

cashman needs to buy of a espn baseball analyst so that that analyst can continue to prop up the prospects like gammons does for Bos

I think if/when this deal goes through, he's going to be signing an extension well over 150mil so I'm not sure the sox are going to be breaking out another 100mil contract to crawford but who knows?

Good deal for Theo, I love how Cashman gets thrown into this. He didn't get nick swisher for 2cents on the dollar?

rappa wrote:I think if/when this deal goes through, he's going to be signing an extension well over 150mil so I'm not sure the sox are going to be breaking out another 100mil contract to crawford but who knows?

Good deal for Theo, I love how Cashman gets thrown into this. He didn't get nick swisher for 2cents on the dollar?

Every rumor I've heard has Crawford as the Red Sox top target. It looks like they are hiking up their budget lately plus Drew is gone next year so they'll have holes in the outfield. I personally expect Crawford to go the Angels but who knows? Cash also made those brutal Granderson and Vazquez deals which looked good at the time but in retrospect burned us badly. He's a good gm but he doesn't have the greatest trade resume.

Wade2k6 wrote:So you're going to sit there and rag on Cashman for not fleecing teams for major top-tier players, but then you contradict yourself by saying "And how does Boston feel about still paying off Dice-K & Beckett." Who did you think made the decision to sign Dice-K, Beckett, and Lackey (another player on a terrible contract)?

Yes, because Theo knows how to scout. Brian depends too much on sabremetrics especially when it comes to pitching.

And you're not reading my comment. My comment was basically saying the sox are still not a threat with all the rebuilding they have to do BUT they got 2 WS out of their FA mercenaries which is more than the Yanks got from their rentals.

You pass reading comprehension in high school son?

Dr. Detfink wrote:

Wade2k6 wrote:So you're going to sit there and rag on Cashman for not fleecing teams for major top-tier players, but then you contradict yourself by saying "And how does Boston feel about still paying off Dice-K & Beckett." Who did you think made the decision to sign Dice-K, Beckett, and Lackey (another player on a terrible contract)?

Yes, because Theo knows how to scout. Brian depends too much on sabremetrics especially when it comes to pitching.

And you're not reading my comment. My comment was basically saying the sox are still not a threat with all the rebuilding they have to do BUT they got 2 WS out of their FA mercenaries which is more than the Yanks got from their rentals.

You pass reading comprehension in high school son?

we got 1 ws in 09, came damn close in 03 and 04, with a minor lull period in the middle

as far as Im concerned, one more WS will make all the current contracts worth it....too bad the road just got harder with BOS reloading (this is why I was a big proponent of making a major trade last summer using Montero to get over the hump, as that was prolly our last best chance to win a ring)

My guess is Boston goes after Werth and calls the offseason a day.

I still don't mind it as a Yankees' fan, it's costing the Red Sox top prospects and money, we got Teixeira for essentially just money.

Dr. Detfink wrote:

Wade2k6 wrote:So you're going to sit there and rag on Cashman for not fleecing teams for major top-tier players, but then you contradict yourself by saying "And how does Boston feel about still paying off Dice-K & Beckett." Who did you think made the decision to sign Dice-K, Beckett, and Lackey (another player on a terrible contract)?

Yes, because Theo knows how to scout. Brian depends too much on sabremetrics especially when it comes to pitching.

And you're not reading my comment. My comment was basically saying the sox are still not a threat with all the rebuilding they have to do BUT they got 2 WS out of their FA mercenaries which is more than the Yanks got from their rentals.

You pass reading comprehension in high school son?

Cashman doesn't know how to scout? His farm system has ranked #1 in pitching the past 2 years, maybe 3 but I'm not sure about that one. He has brought up top pitching prospects in Hughes, Joba, Kennedy (regardless what they have done in the majors, they were still top prospects). Now we'll see how the next wave of guys does such as Brackman, Betances, Banuelos, Noesi, Stoneburner, Mitchell, on and on.

Sure guys like Oppenheimer really do the "scouting" but Boston has guys that do that as well.


As for the actual topic, SD got fleeced. Kelly is an overrated prospect. Its funny, people love to say the Yanks pump up their prospects, look at Boston. They have traded some serious bums for good players, yet the media raves about the prospects they give up who turn out to be dirt.

No Cashman doesn't know how to scout. Yes, Hughes is a start BUT...c'mon how many trades has Cashman worked out that never panned out at all in the pitching department? Karstens? Ross Ohlendorf (in the trade for Javier Vasquez/Randy Johnson check me on that one)? Tyler Clipper? Humberto Sanchez (traded Gary Sheffield)? Scott Patterson? Yea....that ranking system sure looks legit. Where does San Francisco's farm system for pitching rank?

San Diego got fleeced because they are desperate to get rid of Adrian to be able to PAY their roster and stay in business (once again, Southern Cal sucks for franchises see no LA NFL team, Chargers black outs, etc)....

And there is no leverage because there isn't really much of a demand right now from premier teams and Prince Fielder is also on the market.

I'm still not convinced Boston is ahead of the Yanks. The outfield is still suspect even IF it stays healthy. They have ZERO catching. Nothing at SS. The pitching is finally getting old after two World Series. But they will make it interesting.

Dr. Detfink wrote:No Cashman doesn't know how to scout. Yes, Hughes is a start BUT...c'mon how many trades has Cashman worked out that never panned out at all in the pitching department? Karstens? Ross Ohlendorf (in the trade for Javier Vasquez/Randy Johnson check me on that one)? Tyler Clipper? Humberto Sanchez (traded Gary Sheffield)? Scott Patterson? Yea....that ranking system sure looks legit. Where does San Francisco's farm system for pitching rank?

San Diego got fleeced because they are desperate to get rid of Adrian to be able to PAY their roster and stay in business (once again, Southern Cal sucks for franchises see no LA NFL team, Chargers black outs, etc)....

And there is no leverage because there isn't really much of a demand right now from premier teams and Prince Fielder is also on the market.

I'm still not convinced Boston is ahead of the Yanks. The outfield is still suspect even IF it stays healthy. They have ZERO catching. Nothing at SS. The pitching is finally getting old after two World Series. But they will make it interesting.

Karstens and Clippard were homegrown yankees so idk how they fit into cashman being a bad scout argument. As for Ohlendorf, he's been a serviceable 4th/5th starter in the NL. Humberto Sanchez was a top 5 pitching prospect in the game when we traded for him, I guess its cashmans fault he got hurt, and never came back from the injury? Scott Patterson? Huh this guy was never a nobody. Since cashman has been given full autonomy of decisions, they haven't been giving up prospects. Can you name me ANY deal that cashman has gotten fleeced on? Trades are swing and miss, but in case you keep forgetting, cashman has BUILT a top 5 farm system in the game, which has the most pitching depth in the UPPER minors then any other team. Hence the ability to trade a Mark Melancon for a Lance Berkman midway through the season and the system doesn't even blink an eye.

Have you ever made any positive contributions to this board other then blessing us with your half glass empty views and short-poor sighted opinions. Just go back to the hole your crawled out from you no good fan.

Back to the subject and not this tool: The trade fell through

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/b ... ?eref=sihp

Thank the lord.

har har har bosox.

It appears to be a dead deal. AGon wants 8 years 180 million. Roid Sux countered with 6 years 120 million

its done deal per heyman

Looks like Boston caved in to the demands when Werth went off the market.

Dr. Detfink wrote:No Cashman doesn't know how to scout. Yes, Hughes is a start BUT...c'mon how many trades has Cashman worked out that never panned out at all in the pitching department? Karstens? Ross Ohlendorf (in the trade for Javier Vasquez/Randy Johnson check me on that one)? Tyler Clipper? Humberto Sanchez (traded Gary Sheffield)? Scott Patterson? Yea....that ranking system sure looks legit. Where does San Francisco's farm system for pitching rank?

San Diego got fleeced because they are desperate to get rid of Adrian to be able to PAY their roster and stay in business (once again, Southern Cal sucks for franchises see no LA NFL team, Chargers black outs, etc)....

And there is no leverage because there isn't really much of a demand right now from premier teams and Prince Fielder is also on the market.

I'm still not convinced Boston is ahead of the Yanks. The outfield is still suspect even IF it stays healthy. They have ZERO catching. Nothing at SS. The pitching is finally getting old after two World Series. But they will make it interesting.

I don't understand your point? All you did was prove that about 90% of prospects fail for the Yankees, which is equally true throughout the entire league. For every Tim Lincecum, the Giants have 15 pitching prospects that don't reach that point.

And considering that the Yankees aren't picking in the top 10 every year, and sometimes not in the first round or compensation round at all because of their free agent signings, I'd say they are in a position to succeed at an even lower rate with prospects.

Dr, stay out of the deep end. Nobody expected or thought at the the time that the Yankees were getting top flight minor leaguers when they traded Johnson and Sheffield.

You complain but you do not mention about Laird who won the International League MVP. Montero, Romine, Sanchez or the # of arms who just dominated for Trenton and SWB.

How about the fact that the Minor League system just produced Cano, Gardner, Hughes, Joba etc who have all contributed one way or another to the success over the past couple of years. Yankees have won of the best farm systems in baseball. Most experts are putting the Yankees in the top 10 this year going into next.


Not bad for a team that never has top picks and usually loses picks as compensation for free agent signing.


Oooo and Karstens stinks and Ohlendorf is mediocre pitching for a horrible Pirates team in the worst division in baseball. Ooooooo and they were traded for Marte and Xavier. Marte dominating the 2009 World Series made that trade more than worth it. Yankees do not win the World Series if Marte doesn't neutralize all of the Phillies bats while setting up for Mo.

Before Philip Hughes the ONLY starting pitcher the Yankee farm system has developed is Andy Pettitte. Is THAT blunt enough for you? I mean, HOW MANY draft picks can you waste on a pitcher over 10+ years? Is that BLUNT enough for you?

So EINSTEIN GUESS WHAT? As a result the Yankees payroll for all these pitching imports has SOARED in DEAD contracts: Kevin Brown, Jeff Weaver, Jose Contrearas, Esteban Loaiza, Javier Vasquez X2, Randy Johnson, Kei Igawa, Carl Pavano, etc....Anyone with a calculator want to add up all that?

IF THAT isn't proof Cashman's drafting and scouting is suspect...I WANT what you're smoking.

But let's BLAME the guy who has been their most consistent farm system player and lock for the HOF outside of Mariano Rivera. Never mind his career numbers of consistency.

Oh wait, this is the forum where people thought Jeter would accept a lower per year salary than AJ Burnett. Yea, a guy who plays almost every day and home grown vs. a mercenary who goes out every 5 starts and lasts less than 5 innings. GREAT negotiations tactic, I'm sure Jeter will buy that.

Again, if the BALDING FU*KHEAD can AT LEAST ONE guy who can last...the team payroll DOESN'T EXPECT their palm to be GREASED after a FA is given a king's ransom and FAILS.

LET ME REPEAT for the SLOOOOOOOW Thinkers: Before Philip Hughes, the ONLY Yankee farm system starting pitching product to LAST is ANDY PETTITTE.

Got it now? GOT IT? ARE YOU GETTING how the Yanks inability to fill needs has contributed to dumping money and funding their own overspending re-signing their guys?

Now in a sport where spending is limitless...

One factor in the deal for Adrian Gonzalez is the luxury tax. The Red Sox will have to deal with an extension. So WHO goes? Cause the Sawx would rather pay ZERO lux tax, but more likely to a minimum unless Theo is shipping some dead weight out.

So who goes? Cause unlike the Yanks, they ain't too keen on the luxury tax...Remember the Sawx live off acting like sisters of the poor and point at the Yankees as their scapegoat.