this team is horrible

[Pharmcat]

yankees need new ownership and FO

the most telling stat, is that ny has had 50+ players this year up on the team, and none of the called up/replacement players are high prospects

just awful FO

[thebuzzardman]

Agreed.

What I don't understand is why, realizing the team was old and had large contracts they wanted to shed, they did not go heavy into the international FA's like the Cuban OF's, Yu Darvish, Chapman etc. Say come away with 2 of them. While this would be a large initial outlay, at least relative to other players, wouldn't have this been an opportunity to secure lower cost talent, or at least a nice ratio of age/talent/cost, for the next 4 years?

Wouldn't that have had the benefit, if not initially, then eventually, of helping with the luxury tax, as these players would be lower cost to equivalent FA's (with the risk they don't pan out acknowledged)?

This, along with such an overriding desire to be "under the lux tax barrier" basically confirms for me that George's sons are interested in nothing more than taking profits from the team than winning. Hey, it's their team, they can do what they want. Doesn't mean I have to like it or support or believe the line of BS they are trying to "compete".

I guess they are too dense or indifferent to realize that winning is what sells stuff.

Basically classic example of the dull witted sons not being able to run the awesome business of the successful father.

[thebuzzardman]

You'd also think that a team rebuilding would want to acquire prospects and picks at any opportunity, but I don't see the Yanks doing that, but I guess they don't have much to deal.

But even when they had an asset, like Burnett, they were more interested in the $$$ savings than getting a legit prospect:

"In exchange for Burnett, the Yankees get 25-year-old right-hander Diego Moreno and 20-year-old outfielder Exicardo Cayones, both low-level prospects. The Pirates will pay $13 million of the $31.1 million remaining on Burnett's contract, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney (Burnett is on a year-round contract and already has been paid $1.9 million in 2012)."

So, basically, they were glad to take sh*t prospects from the Pirates (who have a well known good farm system) for the opportunity for the Pirates to assume more of Burnett's contract. You KNOW that if the Yanks agreed to pay more of the salary, they could have gotten a better prospect.

Pretty glaring example of teams priorities.

[thebuzzardman]

BTW, the dealt the younger guy for retread Vernon Wells.

So, instead of bolstering the farm (dude was probably no good anyway), Yanks dealt for a washed up player. Great benefit of Wells? No commitment for more than, what, a year? More $$$ saved. I guess supports illusion of competition too.

[Slamm Goodbody]

I don't disagree with most of what you guys are saying and share your frustration, but a farm system doesn't pop up overnight when you make the playoffs every season, sign Type A free agents most offseasons, and you're drafting in the 30s every year. I don't let Cash off the hook for a lot of his farm flops - I think he's overemphasized pitching at a time when his position players are coming up on retirement and most of those guys have turned out to be pen help at best - but draft position matters in building a top tier farm system.

[Pharmcat]

their draft selections have been terrible

no 1 had cito culver as high as they took him

then the development sucks....joba phil, brackman, etc....and then guys leave and become serviceable elsewhere (clippard, etc)

poor drafting, poor mgmt, refusal to get international talent.....mismanagement all the way around

[thebuzzardman]

I don't disagree with most of what you guys are saying and share your frustration, but a farm system doesn't pop up overnight when you make the playoffs every season, sign Type A free agents most offseasons, and you're drafting in the 30s every year. I don't let Cash off the hook for a lot of his farm flops - I think he's overemphasized pitching at a time when his position players are coming up on retirement and most of those guys have turned out to be pen help at best - but draft position matters in building a top tier farm system.

Granted. But other orgs find good players in lower picks. It isn't the basketball draft.

He's emphasized pitching but there is no good young pitchers to show for like, what, 7 years? Robertson is a good reliever, Kennedy was\is decent, Nova is enigmatic but lets be generous and call him a #3 pitcher. Other than that, the Yankees specialize in turning out middle relievers, not a bad thing but not exactly top notch.

Also, I heard that there were ideas circulating to restrict FA signings in Latin America, make a draft or do something to reduce large market\$ teams advantage. Even if that is strong rumor, if I were the Yanks, I'd be running down there with suitcases full of cash because that is where most of their decent prospects, panned out or not, seem to come from.

[Dr. Detfink]

It's true, finishing first is not going to give you the opportunity to grab franchise players. That's NOT my issue. My issue is the reluctance to use young players to bag bigger prospects.

Give you an example, in 2010 hot off his 2009 set up role, Phil Hughes finished 18-8. That was the perfect opportunity to package him with some mid level prospects to bag a near top tier player.

Would the Yankees have gotten a Mike Trout player? Absolutely not. However they would definitely be taken seriously in discussions for a player that fills a need. Namely offense.

Instead, the franchise stood pat and counted its money.

And so, the overblown values of Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy went for naught. That only happens when you over rate your prospects or you don't know how to evaluate talent.

Looks like the game plan is getting vets because they have a reputation or some fading glory to put butts in the seats and every now and then they'll get hot and put up some wins.

[thebuzzardman]

I'm not even sure "aging vets" is the plan, because I don't really see any sort of plan at work. More like duct tape and baling wire, and, I guess, hope for profits.

I guess the Yanks sold enough Luxury boxes for long enough that they don't give a crap about empty seats, because they started this year and boy, is it going to get worse.

[Pharmcat]

It's true, finishing first is not going to give you the opportunity to grab franchise players. That's NOT my issue. My issue is the reluctance to use young players to bag bigger prospects.

Give you an example, in 2010 hot off his 2009 set up role, Phil Hughes finished 18-8. That was the perfect opportunity to package him with some mid level prospects to bag a near top tier player.

Would the Yankees have gotten a Mike Trout player? Absolutely not. However they would definitely be taken seriously in discussions for a player that fills a need. Namely offense.

Instead, the franchise stood pat and counted its money.

And so, the overblown values of Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy went for naught. That only happens when you over rate your prospects or you don't know how to evaluate talent.

Looks like the game plan is getting vets because they have a reputation or some fading glory to put butts in the seats and every now and then they'll get hot and put up some wins.

yep, if yanks had a decent farm couldve gotten hanley

[Pharmcat]

good article on det gm

http://nypost.com/2013/09/19/wily-tiger ... son-trade/

[Dr. Detfink]

Good read.

To me, you use free agency for supporting cast players. NOT stars. Why? Well with the luxury tax, CBA it's not conducive if you want to keep the payroll down. But you can use trades to boost the value in your farm that breeds your stars.

I've never lived through an era where the Yanks front office is so sensitive about money. Behind closed doors, I am sure they are but publicly, it's embarrassing. Want to make a better, low cost team draft/trade smarter. Don't whine for a discount.

[moocow007]

I don't disagree with most of what you guys are saying and share your frustration, but a farm system doesn't pop up overnight when you make the playoffs every season, sign Type A free agents most offseasons, and you're drafting in the 30s every year. I don't let Cash off the hook for a lot of his farm flops - I think he's overemphasized pitching at a time when his position players are coming up on retirement and most of those guys have turned out to be pen help at best - but draft position matters in building a top tier farm system.

It doesn't really matter if they draft at the bottom of the 1st since those players are still among the cream of the crop. Aside from Jeter, here's a list of every single 1st round pick the Yankees have had since Derek Jeter was drafted in 1992 (21 drafts ago), draft spot in []:

1993 Matt Drews - [13]
1994 Brian Buchanan - [24]
1995 Shea Morenz - [27]
1996 Eric Milton - [20]
1997 Tyrell Godwin - [24]
1997 Ryan Bradley - [40]
1998 Andy Brown - [24]
1998 Mark Prior - [43] -- did not sign
1999 David Walling - [27]
2000 David Parrish - [28]
2001 John-Ford Griffin - [23]
2001 Bronson Sardinha - [34]
2001 Jon Skaggs - [42]
2002 no first-round pick
2003 Eric Duncan - [27]
2004 Phil Hughes - [23]
2004 Jonathan Poterson - [37]
2004 Jeffrey Marquez - [41]
2005 Carl Henry - [17]
2006 Ian Kennedy - [21]
2006 Joba Chamberlain - [41]
2007 Andrew Brackman - [30]
2008 Gerrit Cole - [28] -- did not sign
2008 Jeremy Bleich - [44]
2009 Slade Heathcott - [29]
2010 Cito Culver - [32]
2011 Dante Bichette, Jr. - [51]
2012 Ty Hensley - [30]
2013 Eric Jagielo - [26]
2013 Aaron Judge - [32]
2013 Ian Clarkin - [33]

Of the last 31 players drafted in the 1st round since Derek Jeter, Phil Hughes has been the most productive player. Repeat...Phil Hughes has been their most productive 1st round pick to done a Yankee uniform. Ian Kennedy had one elite year for the Cards but has been bleh for the 2 seasons since. Joba Chamberlain had a good 2 month run and has been poo since. No one else has done diddly squat in the majors (and the bulk of them flubbed in the minors).

The two guys that looks to have elite stuff were the 2 guys that they didn't sign (Mark Prior and Gerrit Cole). Prior blew his arm out but before that looked like a no.1. Gerrit Cole has had a strong rookie season for the Pirates and has great stuff.

The most recent guys (from Heathcott on) futures are obviously still TBD, but based on their draft history, probably not very optimistic.

[Slamm Goodbody]

I'll see your Yankee list and counter with the Tampa Bay Rays, who everyone these days holds up as the paragon for how to build your team on a budget:

1996 Paul Wilder 29
1997 Jason Standridge 31
1998 No Pick
1999 Josh Hamilton 1
2000 Rocco Baldelli 6
2001 Dewon Brazelton 3
2002 B. J. Upton 2
2003 Delmon Young 1
2004 Jeff Niemann 4
2005 Wade Townsend 8
2006 Evan Longoria 3
2007 David Price 1
2008 Tim Beckham 1
2009 LeVon Washington* 30
2010 Josh Sale 17
2010 Justin O'Conner 31
2010 Drew Vettieson 42
2011 Taylor Guerrieri 24
2011 Mikie Mahtook 31
2011 Jake Hager 32
2012 Richie Shaffer 25

Of all of those guys above, virtually all of Tampa's prospects that weren't drafted in the top 10 turned out to be nothing (jury's still out on Sale). You can argue that the Yankee scouting has been suspect because none of the guys we drafted in the mid 20s on down panned out but they're no different than any other team in that regard. A better argument would be to highlight the major misses from the Yanks in each of those drafts annually, but even then, it's a fundamental fact that draft order is important in building your farm system. If you want top tier talent, you gotta draft at the top.

That said, baseball is about depth and a plurality of options in your farm system, as well as player development and international signings. That's panned out with the Yankees on a few fronts with later round picks (Gardner, Robertson being the best recent examples) and international signings (Cano, Nova). I think Pharm is right that we need to work on the development side and getting these guys to play to their potential.

I'd also tread lightly about what Detfink said about selling high on our prospects to improve the team. Remember when we did that every single season? Remember when Cashman went out of his way to sell Arizona on Cano and Wang in exchange for Randy Johnson? Let's just be happy their GM went with Brad Halsey and Dioner Navarro instead.

Do too many of those farm dumps to win now and you end up with Brett Prinz in your bullpen and Jeff Karstens/Darell Rasner as your 4/5 starters when injuries hit the front line guys for lack of depth. Those 9 years we went without a championship after 2000 we had some really bad teams that slugged their way to the playoffs around the strength of hired guns. Would have been nice to have options back then.

[Pharmcat]

the farm is terrible....killer Bs = killer busts, cito, etc...they have no rhyme or reason to their farm, repeatedly drafting pitching (most busts) while ignoring critical fielding positions

but its just not that
they cant develop the talent see phil, joba, and even guys who left teams were able to find a niche (clippard, see how they also used garcia)

the IFA has had GEMS in Yu, cespedes, puig, etc....and yanks whiffed on all them....total fail

team has repeatedly forced to go dumpster diving....and even there, the two gems they found there in raul and colon, they let both of them go

I think when this team couldnt get hanley showed how badly things had changed for the worst...

but the next couple seasons will show the true colors of this team, the last couple years, team has failed in the draft, IFA, and its going to catch up to them as the core 4 is gone and arod and others get older

[Pharmcat]

teams bidding for alexander guerrero....yanks not in it

yet they gave youkilis 12M for what?

[Dr. Detfink]

The issue here is, trading your prospects for better prospects. Sure, positioning matters BUT nothing said you can't do a Billy Beane maneuver, trade when your prospects' stock is high to get an even better prospect. Of course many prospects are going to bomb, that's all the reason to try and dress them up and get rid of them.


What the Yankee GM does is sit on them. Well there is a problem. One, he has ZERO scouting experience. He's a business lawyer. Two, he apparently takes the word of ANY doctor (see Feliciano, Pineda, Youkalis, Jeter, Teixiera, etc).

When you have been burned that many times, it is TIME to do business differently or GROW UP Cash.

It's really embarrassing right now but it's proof for the last 13 years, Cashman has lived off what was given to him and what other people tell him.

Really wished they let him go to Philly.

[Dr. Detfink]

I'll feel embarrassed if the Yankees finish behind Cleveland and KC in the Wild Card standings. BTW Jimenez has turned it around and his velocity has returned. *fist pumps*

[Pharmcat]

i still cant believe puig went for 7 yrs 42 mill and yanks didnt bother to get him

he might be the best bargain of this decade

[Pharmcat]

any1 know why martin and a guy like schierholtz werent added instead of giving youk 12m?