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I'd just like to put out a disclaimer that I am not jumping off a bridge. I think we'll bounce back from this horrible stretch and make the playoffs.

But I see only Joe Torre getting a ton of blame for the awful start this year. What about Brian Cashman too? Why is Brian Cashman the golden boy? Why does Brian Cashman not get any criticism around these parts and in the media?

It's Cashman's fault for assembling this injury prone and old rotation, not Torre. Relying on Pavano and Mussina to make 33 starts a year was just wishful thinking, and now it's backfiring. I'll wait a few months to get the verdict on Igawa, but right now it's not looking good for Mr. Cashman.

This guy gets nine lives because of the Tampa faction debacle. It's time for him to put up and shut up and get this team a reliable starting pitching staff. We haven't had one since 2003. He has been riding on the coattails of Gene Michael for his entire time here and it's time for him to define his legacy. Developing Hughes is a good start, but an $180 million dollar team should not have such bad holes in its rotation, bullpen and bench.

NYKGM will not let this one slide

on the other hand, at least he didnt re sign Mo before the season

There really wasn't much available for Cashman to go out and get this offseason. He made an attempt at Matsuzaka, but Boston shocked the world with their offer. He went out and got rid of Johnson and Wright, which were both necessary moves. He replaced them with Pettitte and now Hughes, who are both better than both guys that we traded.

You cannot have 8 effective starters so that when 3 go on the DL, you have 3 more ready. The most you can do is fill them in with guys like Karstens, its a fact of life.

Right now our ace has made 1 start and our #2 pitcher has made 2 starts. Injuries are not a GM's fault, they are a product of sports. You cannot ask Cashman to go out and get Roy Oswalt in case Moose has a sore groin on April 8th. These things happen everyday and you can't replace your #1 and #2 pitchers with another #1 and #2. The pitching will be absolutely fine once these guys get going.

And you can't even use the ''injury prone'' card because both Wang and Moose suffered pulled groins, which have absolutely nothing to do with being injury prone. Had it been arm or shoulder injuries, you'd have an argument.

Cashman has brought some stability to this team and is rebuilding through the farm. No matter how much money our payroll is, we cant just go and buy proven allstar pitchers. Were gonna have to ride this losing streak out and move on. Hopefully Cashman can grab somebody in the offseason, Johan but it will be hard. Before this season I told myself that this was a transition year. But this team is going to put me into therapy.

Brian Cashman or Gene Michael? Which one would you rather have? Also, would be interesting to see if Cashman actually consults Michael before moves.

Johan isnt a free agent, he will cost a lot of prospects

getting humberto was stupid given his injury history

Anyone have a list of free agents after this season?

moocow007 wrote:Anyone have a list of free agents after this season?

You ask and you shall receive

1. Carlos Zambrano (27) SP Chicago (N)

2. Michael Young (31) SS Texas

3. Andruw Jones(31) OF Atlanta

4. Joe Nathan (33) RP Minnesota

5. Mariano Rivera (38) RP New York (A)

6. Torii Hunter (32) OF Minnesota

7. John Smoltz (41) SP Atlanta

8. Curt Schilling (41) SP Boston

9. Bobby Abreu (34) OF New York (A)

10. Ichiro Suzuki (34) OF Seattle

11. Scott Linebrink(31) RP San Diego

12. Carlos Guillen (32) SS Detroit

13. Jeff Kent (40) 2B Los Angeles (N)

14. Mike Lowell (34) 3B Boston

15. Jorge Posada (36) C New York (A)

16. Jason Jennings (29) SP Houston

18. Ivan Rodriguez (36) C Detroit

19. Trevor Hoffman (40) RP San Diego

20. Freddy Garcia (32) SP Philadelphia

21. Kenny Rogers (43) SP Detroit

22. Jason Isringhausen (35) RP St. Louis

23. Omar Vizquel (41) SS San Francisco

24. Marcus Giles (30) 2B San Diego

25. Eric Byrnes (32) OF Arizona

26. Paul Lo Duca (36) C New York (N)

27. Bob Wickman (39) RP Atlanta

28. Corey Patterson (28) OF Baltimore

29. Adam Dunn (28) OF Cincinnati

30. Doug Davis (32) SP Arizona

31. Michael Barrett (31) C Chicago (N)

32. Milton Bradley (30) OF Oakland

33. Jon Lieber (38) SP Philadelphia

34. David Eckstein (33) SS St. Louis

35. Aaron Rowand (30) OF Philadelphia

36. Juan Uribe (29) SS Chicago (A)

37. Bartolo Colon (35) SP Los Angeles (A)'''

Retrieved from "http://www.dodgers.cc/wiki/index.php?title=2007-2008_Free_Agents"

Get me Zambrano. The next big contract, I'd be good with that.

throwbackewing33 wrote: No matter how much money our payroll is, we cant just go and buy proven allstar pitchers.

He's sure tried.....Kevin Brown, Jose Contreras, Pavano, Jaret Wright, Javy Vazquez, Jeff Weaver (anyone remember the Ted Lilly trade??), Denny Neagle, the fat pussy toad.

34Celtic wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



He's sure tried.....Kevin Brown, Jose Contreras, Pavano, Jaret Wright, Javy Vazquez, Jeff Weaver (anyone remember the Ted Lilly trade??), Denny Neagle, the fat pussy toad.

Contreras was gone after by every damn team in the MLB probably the biggest reason we didn't overspend for DICE- K, Jose was a perfect example of a player who just shrunk when the pressure came and those mechanics got worse year after year until a fellow latino Guillen got him to throw like he use to. And he still stinkin' it up.

At the time Kevin Brown was acquired the only arguement was his demands, unfornately his damn back was worst than advertised, he also punched a wall w/ his pitching hand not a smart man.

Pavano was a big time playoff pitcher look at his playoff pitching numbers
2004 - Florida Marlins Player of the Year, Baseball America Second-Team Major League All-Star SP, NL Cy Young Award (Voting Rank: #6), Played in MLB All-Star Game

27 years old WS CHAMP 2 - 0, 1.40 ERA, 19.3 IP, 17 H, 3 ER, 3 BB, 15 SO

EVERYONE WANTED HIM

Javy Vasquez was reguarded as the next Pedro Martinez I don't know what happened to him , his acquisition started those NL pitchers regress in the AL arguements

And come on give me a break Ted Lilly , he the worst stuff I ever seen for someone his age back at that time

Tigers outfielder Bobby Higginson criticized team president and general manager Dave Dombrowski for trading No. 1 starter Jeff Weaver.

"It's a terrible trade, that's what I think," Higginson told reporters Saturday. "We just traded a No. 1 starter who's 25 years old and wanted to stay here. For the baseball fans in Detroit, this is a bad day. I think he'll win a Cy Young with New York, a couple of them."
Higginson said he thinks Dombrowski traded Weaver because he didn't like the pitcher.

"This was a personal issue -- that's the bottom line," Higginson said. "He didn't like Jeff Weaver and decided to trade him.

"That's definitely not the way to run a ballclub. If you were going to build a team and there's one guy you shouldn't trade, it was Jeff.

Dombrowski denied having personal problems with Weaver.

"I liked Jeff," Dombrowski said. "I wish I could have kept him and the three players we got."

Higginson thinks he could be the next to go. "I have to get healthy first, but if it's the right team, a playoff team, I'm gone," he said.

a 25 year old pitcher who had ace stuff touch 98 mph reguarly

17 GS, 121.7 IP 112 H 43 ER 4 HR 33 BB 75 SO 3.18 ERA

what was the problem w/ that move we traded Lilly who was a 23rd round pick who was 3 - 6 here as a pitcher , a 3.40 ERA a guy who averaged 4.7 IP per game, Weaver who was the # 14 pick in the 1st round of 98' and had electric stuff , you actually throw Lilly in this arguement ? Lilly was nothing special we also got Raul Mondesi as a throw in to that deal Weaver went 5 - 3 in 8 GS, he averaged 7 IP for Detroit and you know how we are w/ our staff he went 5 IP. My friend Lilly's first year under a 4 ERA is this season.

Denny Nagle was acquired to be a back end SP he bombed sh** happens, he also had an ERA of 3.52 before bombing in NY to a 5.82 ERA.

Jaret Wright and Kyle Farnsworth is the one I can't defend he was garbage I never liked him, when he pitched for Cleveland he was a fireballer who threw it down the middle and Fanrsworth I gave some room but he flat out busted. Those two are your only arguements.

Although you could say he saved the season w/ other acquisitions remember he became full GM in 1998 so his good pitching moves

El Duque (yup that's right that was Cashman)
Chris Hammond underrated for what he gave us
Jason Grimsley
Mike Mussina (yes young Mike also helped us in the playoffs young Moose not this one)
Shawn Chacon (big energy brought by him)
Aaron Small who could forget the 10 - 0 run
Roger Clemens (yup Cashman in 1999)
Jon Leiber

so lets not act like Cashman is to blame he's put his mark on this team too, the buck stops w/ the manager IMO

Thanks dude...you da man!

34Celtic wrote:

moocow007 wrote:Anyone have a list of free agents after this season?

You ask and you shall receive

1. Carlos Zambrano (27) SP Chicago (N)

Now if they can only take the money they gave Igawa and Pavano and give it to Zambrano.

2. Michael Young (31) SS Texas

3. Andruw Jones(31) OF Atlanta

Don't know about the rest of you guys but Jones scares me...as much as his midsection as anything else. I don't know that Abreu will be back so I'm sure he's on the radar.

4. Joe Nathan (33) RP Minnesota

Nathan may be the guy that they should go after most for obvious reasons.

5. Mariano Rivera (38) RP New York (A)

Well NY has shown that they will only go so far with loyalty to long time Yanks. I'm guessing if Rivera pitches poorly (or even mediocrishly) that they may be willing to let him go. Joe Nathan should keep his options open and not resign with Minny before he has the chance to hit the free agency market.

6. Torii Hunter (32) OF Minnesota

Not enamored with Hunter either. But as with Jones I'm sure he'll be on the Yankees radar. Probablyl more of a fit unless the Boss gets involved, then Jones probably leaps to the front.

7. John Smoltz (41) SP Atlanta

Smoltz is not going anywhere.

8. Curt Schilling (41) SP Boston

Does the bloody sock come with him?

9. Bobby Abreu (34) OF New York (A)

I'd rather a firey young OF but no doubt his style fits this lineup. The question is, does this lineup fit the needs of this team?

10. Ichiro Suzuki (34) OF Seattle

I would love to have Ichiro over Hunter or Jones, especially to replace Abreu, but I seriously doubt the M's let Ichiro walk and they have enough financial ties to him that they'll likely resign him. But if not and Ichiro feels a need for a change, I'd be in front of the line. Ichiro and Nathan would be a great offseason.

11. Scott Linebrink(31) RP San Diego

After a strong check into the strength of his character and the size of his balls. The last thing NY needs is another guy with great stuff that can't stomach pitching in NY.

12. Carlos Guillen (32) SS Detroit

13. Jeff Kent (40) 2B Los Angeles (N)

14. Mike Lowell (34) 3B Boston

15. Jorge Posada (36) C New York (A)

Lacking better options, I'd say bring him back.

16. Jason Jennings (29) SP Houston

A possibility if Igawa and Pavano don't pan out.

18. Ivan Rodriguez (36) C Detroit

See 16...better option?

19. Trevor Hoffman (40) RP San Diego

Is he still pitching?

20. Freddy Garcia (32) SP Philadelphia

Great stuff but can he handle NY? He hasn't shown to be the most stable or mentally tuff pitcher out there so far.

21. Kenny Rogers (43) SP Detroit

Pass...double...pass. He's already shown he can't handle the pressure.

22. Jason Isringhausen (35) RP St. Louis

23. Omar Vizquel (41) SS San Francisco

24. Marcus Giles (30) 2B San Diego

25. Eric Byrnes (32) OF Arizona

I like Byrnes and is energy is something that could help NY.

26. Paul Lo Duca (36) C New York (N)

27. Bob Wickman (39) RP Atlanta

28. Corey Patterson (28) OF Baltimore

As a low cost alternative if Abreu leaves and none of the big names are available.

29. Adam Dunn (28) OF Cincinnati

Isn't he more of a DH?

30. Doug Davis (32) SP Arizona

31. Michael Barrett (31) C Chicago (N)

32. Milton Bradley (30) OF Oakland

33. Jon Lieber (38) SP Philadelphia

34. David Eckstein (33) SS St. Louis

If he's willing to be the backup infielder then ABSOLUTELY. Eck is the perfect energy guy IMO that NY lacks.

35. Aaron Rowand (30) OF Philadelphia

The Rowand I remember was a great defensive OF and had enough in his bat to earn his keep. He'd definitely be an option (probably better in LF or CF than RF though).

36. Juan Uribe (29) SS Chicago (A)

37. Bartolo Colon (35) SP Los Angeles (A)'''

Has he reached 400lbs yet?

Yeah Pavano, great sign. Come on Cashman went after the local kid with A FREEKING CAREER 57-58 RECORD. He's also a headcase.

Kevin Brown always had a history of injury problems and was 39 and a headcase when we acquired him.

Jeff Weaver: see headcase.

Javy Vazquez is actually one guy I wish we kept, the Johnson trade in the long run didn't pan out.

We traded away like 2 top prospects for Denny Neagle, but hey we didn't make the biggest mistake on him. See: Colorado

Jose Contreras: see Jeff Weaver.

Raul Mondesi: see Jeff Weaver.

Those were all just examples of bad moves. The guy has had the most money to spend with and hasn't given us a team that has won since 2000. Look, you guys all blame Torre for this year. How do you expect a manager to be successful with 5 Quality Starts in 23 games?????????? Tell me, I'm waiting for an answer.

Also, his starters are so inexperienced he has to go to the bullpen early.

Why do you think Jeter backs him???? He made a great point. Torre puts the best players on the field and gives them the best oppurtunity to win. EVEN STEINBRENNER IS BACKING HIM BECAUSE EVEN HE HAS HALF A BRAIN AND REALIZES WHATS GOING ON.

On top of the pitching, our offense has been struggling. Damon is hurting badly, Abreu has seemed to have lost all confidence. Whats with the sac bunts? Free up first base so they walk AROD? Good idea Bobby. Our first base platoon hasn't worked out like Cashman thought. Matsui was hurt for 2 weeks. Posada is producing but missed a few weeks because of injury.

This team is severly flawed right now and was not well put together, the last thing that we have to worry about is our manager



Randy Johnson....see: Kevin Brown, also see: headcase

your preaching the wrong crap , Joe Torre is 66 he's done after this year period you can't guarantee me he gets out of the 1st round.

NYKnSTILL! wrote:your preaching the wrong crap , Joe Torre is 66 he's done after this year period you can't guarantee me he gets out of the 1st round.

If he's done after this year, fine. It's what everyone expected all along, he would finish out his contract. But you guys are trying to say this season has been his fault. All you're doing is pointing fingers instead of thinking like a logical human.

34Celtic wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



If he's done after this year, fine. It's what everyone expected all along, he would finish out his contract. But you guys are trying to say this season has been his fault. All you're doing is pointing fingers instead of thinking like a logical human.

no one is saying it's all his fault it's just that change is needed because it has gotten to same old, same old

NYKnSTILL! wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



no one is saying it's all his fault it's just that change is needed because it has gotten to same old, same old

Everyone was getting on him all week/weekend about our performance. I'm glad some people have opened their eyes and stoped thinking crazy

34Celtic wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Everyone was getting on him all week/weekend about our performance. I'm glad some people have opened their eyes and stoped thinking crazy

Cashman needs to bring Albert Bell back to baseball to provide their lineup a spark and work a trade for Jay Witasick to add more depth to their depleted bullpen!!!!