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NY Post: Time for Cup of Joe

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:12 pm
by throwbackewing33
April 29, 2007 -- NOT that long ago, when the fans still universally adored Joe Torre and the championship years were closer in the rear-view mirror, the Yankee manager was contemplating, essentially, firing himself from George Steinbrenner.

It was during the 2003 season, and Torre had become weary of all the behind-the-scenes assassins who had Steinbrenner's ear, and at all the sniping at coaches Torre held dear. He had a year left on his contract, but was wondering whether to continue to go through the grinder every time there was valley in a season.

Privately he told people what aggravated him most was that despite having steered the Yanks to the playoffs every year and having captured four World Series, he had no collateral with The Boss. "It bothers me that there is no acknowledgement that I know how to get a team through a season," Torre told associates.

That has actually been one of Torre's assets, his ability to navigate his clubs to the top of the AL East year after year, through injuries, poor performance and the traveling circus that is the Yankees. Torre's steadiness mattered in each of the last two seasons, in particular, when the Yanks won the division despite the kinds of injuries and pitching shortages that threaten to derail them early in 2007.

But will he get points for that now when Steinbrenner wants blood? This is very possibly the lowest regular-season valley in Torre's 12-year tenure, and it just might be that The Boss fixates on the valley, not on Torre's history.

Steinbrenner has hankered to fire Torre for quite a while, and knows public opinion has turned on Torre. The anonymity and instant venom provided by the Internet has created a swelling community that wants Torre out as badly as Steinbrenner does.

But here are two questions Steinbrenner should weigh before acting rashly: What manager would be winning with the 2007 Yankees in their current state? And if not Torre, then who has the gravitas and mentality to cope not just with a flawed and expensive team, but with all the pressure and extras that come with that in Steinbrenner's New York?

"Eventually this is going to improve and get better," Torre said after the Yanks' 3-1 triumph yesterday.

That was not easy to believe three hours earlier. On the first pitch of the game, Julio Lugo crashed a liner off of Jeff Karstens, fracturing his fibula. Karstens left before recording an out, leaving nine innings for the beleaguered bullpen. Amazingly, Kei Igawa gave the Yanks six shutout innings that helped end a seven-game losing streak and, perhaps momentarily, the lust for Torre's job.

Still, the injury to Karstens reflected the overall problem. The Yanks have had to use nine starters, including five rookies, in 22 games. Torre's worst trait as a manager has been to burn out relievers, and he is doing that again here in April. But mostly because there is no choice. Pick your best manager, Bobby Cox or Jim Leyland or Tony La Russa, none are going to succeed when 12 times in 22 games a starter fails to go even five innings.

And Cox, Leyland and La Russa are not available to replace Torre. Neither is Lou Piniella, who had been Steinbrenner's first choice last October. That probably is good news. Piniella might be baseball's Larry Brown, a vagabond in it for the dough. He pretty much walked out on both the Mariners and Devil Rays, and his financially bulked-up Cubs are 10-13.

So where would Steinbrenner turn? Joe Girardi could come out of the TV booth, but he has a tinge of Buck Showalter's controlling nature, and would that work? Is Don Mattingly really ready for this? Larry Bowa couldn't control his emotions in Philadelphia. Does Steinbrenner want to gamble there is still desire in a Davey Johnson or Cito Gaston?

Or does Steinbrenner want to do what he has never been willing to do, trust that Torre really does know how to manage a team through the valleys, knows how to manage the full season, not just April. Torre has always hated when Steinbrenner did not see that history, and now he needs The Boss to see it more than ever.

joel.sherman@nypost.com


I thought this was a very good article. Whether you like it or not, Torre is the best manager available to manage this team. No body is going to come in and do a better job. Also how about the Pinella comparison to Larry Brown?

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:37 pm
by Squirrel Boy
He burns out relievers. Period.

But haha at the Larry Brown comparison.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:50 pm
by Abraham Lincoln
Davey Johnson? Cito Gatson? LOL, that would be pushing back the clock no doubt.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:55 pm
by cmaff051
Time for a Cup of Girardi.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:12 pm
by 34Celtic
UltimateSora91 wrote:He burns out relievers. Period.

But haha at the Larry Brown comparison.


Still, the injury to Karstens reflected the overall problem. The Yanks have had to use nine starters, including five rookies, in 22 games. Torre's worst trait as a manager has been to burn out relievers, and he is doing that again here in April. But mostly because there is no choice. Pick your best manager, Bobby Cox or Jim Leyland or Tony La Russa, none are going to succeed when 12 times in 22 games a starter fails to go even five innings.

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:29 pm
by throwbackewing33
I still dont know if it would be best to fire Torre right now. But he is pushing all the right buttons. Taking Wang out for Proctor again proves his bullpen management is horrible.

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:17 am
by 34Celtic
NEW YORK -- With Chien-Ming Wang and Andy Pettitte in the rotation and Mike Mussina scheduled to return from a hamstring injury Thursday, Yankees manager Joe Torre can take comfort in the knowledge that competent, veteran starters will soon be working in 60 percent of his team's games.

The arrangement is a welcome departure from much of April, when Torre could have used input from Ron Guidry, Tom House, Mike Marshall, Dr. Jim Andrews, the Columbia University kinesiology department and the Army Corps of Engineers just to make it through the day.

The Yankees will finish April at 9-14, having lost eight of their last nine games. The skid ensures that wherever Torre goes the next few days, someone will be sticking a notebook or a microphone in his face and asking him, "Have you heard anything from George today?"

Kei Igawa's strong emergency relief effort Saturday briefly turned down the heat on the Torre unemployment vigil, but it's percolating once again. The Yankees lost 7-4 to Boston on Sunday to fall 6

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:43 am
by moocow007
The starting rotation is not the end all be all singular reason. If it were then fine. But this team is playing like their on their death bed expecting the inevitable end. THAT is a manager's job to avoid. In that respect, Torre has not been able to get these guys to play with the necessary urgency for many years now.

The Yankees that won championships would step up when the pressure comes. These Yankees are more prone to folding in the same situation. They are getting by by sheer talent, have been for years now.

Sure it could be that even Casey Stengel, Tommy Lasorda, Billy Martin and Tony LaRussa combined wouldn't get any more life out of this bunch but I find that kinda hard to believe.

It's interesting that Larry Brown comment was made cause right now it almost seems like the Yankees are playing like the Knicks did under brown, rolling over and playing dead when the other team makes their push.

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:46 am
by moocow007
I don't want to compare the two cause it's obviously not the same situation (different league, different ballpark, different competition) but it's startling that the Mets went into the season with a starting rotation that was in worst shape than the Yankees (in fact they've been penned as the worst starting rotation of the two at the start for years) and yet they get more than what anyone can expect from what they have while the Yankees get less than anyone can expect from what they have. Bothers me, and it should bother other Yankee fans as well. Again, it's not just this year, it's been pretty much been going on for years. If not Torre and the coaching staff than the GM. Someone assembled these guys right? And the Yankees are not supposed to be the Knicks but right now it sure seems like they are (highest paid by far and underachieving across the board).

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:53 am
by majorleads
moocow007 wrote:I don't want to compare the two cause it's obviously not the same situation (different league, different ballpark, different competition) but it's startling that the Mets went into the season with a starting rotation that was in worst shape than the Yankees (in fact they've been penned as the worst starting rotation of the two at the start for years) and yet they get more than what anyone can expect from what they have while the Yankees get less than anyone can expect from what they have. Bothers me, and it should bother other Yankee fans as well. Again, it's not just this year, it's been pretty much been going on for years. If not Torre and the coaching staff than the GM. Someone assembled these guys right? And the Yankees are not supposed to be the Knicks but right now it sure seems like they are (highest paid by far and underachieving across the board).


:eek1: :eek1: :eek1:

You know Yankee fans are getting desperate when they say something nice about the Mets. :)

Seriously, Rick Peterson is a genius. Steinslobber should have went all out and tried to sign Leo Mazzone. The Gator has to go.

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:32 am
by moocow007
majorleads wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



:eek1: :eek1: :eek1:

You know Yankee fans are getting desperate when they say something nice about the Mets. :)


I still dislike the Mets but you have to give them credit for continually getting blood from a stone with the pitchers that they've had through recent years.

Seriously, Rick Peterson is a genius. Steinslobber should have went all out and tried to sign Leo Mazzone. The Gator has to go.


I've always been a fan of Peterson, curly mullet or not. Mazzone would have been better IMHO as well.

As far as Guidry, it's really hard to say if his fault since the Yankees were like this in past seasons as well and the injuries still cannot be discounted. But my take is that injury or not, the Yankee pitchers are not the worst in the majors and yet they seem ill prepared, erratic and scared way too often.

Honestly, from a talent standpoint even the depleted Yankee rotation matches the Mets rag tag rotation and yet the Mets are getting along just fine and it seems every time I check the box score the Mets are allowing the opponents less than 4 runs a game.

Posted: Thu May 3, 2007 10:03 pm
by DakkaFromNyc
Lets c how this whole season comes out to be, I think Joe will be fired if he dosent advance us 2 second round

Posted: Fri May 4, 2007 12:16 am
by Jitpal
majorleads wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



:eek1: :eek1: :eek1:

You know Yankee fans are getting desperate when they say something nice about the Mets. :)

Seriously, Rick Peterson is a genius. Steinslobber should have went all out and tried to sign Leo Mazzone. The Gator has to go.

Yeah, like Mazzone seems to be doing such a bang up job in Baltimore. However, I do think Guidry should be looking over his shoulder because under him our pitching has been less than stellar. Not saying it is his fault, but Steinbrenner just loves to pretend to be Trump. -Jitpal

Posted: Fri May 4, 2007 9:22 pm
by DakkaFromNyc
If Joe is gone, who could be a replacement

Posted: Fri May 4, 2007 9:42 pm
by ReggieFULLeffect
If Joe is gone, who could be a replacement


Joe Girardi.

Posted: Fri May 4, 2007 9:54 pm
by Jitpal
Girardi should be it but Girardi is playing the "I can't take my mentor's job" thing. Plus, Mattingly is standing in the wings. I think it is a big Tampa/Cashman thing. Tampa wants Mattingly and Cashman wants Girardi. I think after this year, depending on who manages we will see who is really in charge. -Jitpal

Posted: Fri May 4, 2007 10:48 pm
by cmaff051
Jitpal wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


Yeah, like Mazzone seems to be doing such a bang up job in Baltimore. However, I do think Guidry should be looking over his shoulder because under him our pitching has been less than stellar. Not saying it is his fault, but Steinbrenner just loves to pretend to be Trump. -Jitpal


Rick Peterson is no genius. He just benefits from having his pitchers pitch against some lightweight lineups 9 out of 10 games.

I am wondering, if he is such a genius, why he didn't "fix" Victor Zambrano?

Posted: Sat May 5, 2007 2:37 pm
by ReggieFULLeffect
I am wondering, if he is such a genius, why he didn't "fix" Victor Zambrano?


Because you can't fix stink...

Posted: Sat May 5, 2007 5:10 pm
by DakkaFromNyc
I wouldnt mind seeing Joe Girardi as Joe's replacement

Posted: Sat May 5, 2007 5:47 pm
by majorleads
Jitpal wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


Yeah, like Mazzone seems to be doing such a bang up job in Baltimore. However, I do think Guidry should be looking over his shoulder because under him our pitching has been less than stellar. Not saying it is his fault, but Steinbrenner just loves to pretend to be Trump. -Jitpal


I was watching the Yankee game last night and as Colter Bean was having his meltdown, the camera kept panning too Guidry sitting in the dugout and, it seemed he was more interested in stuffing sunflower seeds into his mouth rather than paying attention to the "action" on the field.