Image

Opening series vs. Minnesota

User avatar
Basketball Jesus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 31,180
And1: 7
Joined: Sep 04, 2003
Location: P-nuts + hair doos

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#41 » by Basketball Jesus » Thu Apr 9, 2009 6:57 pm

That Gutz catch was ridiculous.

Thanks MLB At-Bat!
Manocad wrote:The universe is the age it is. We can all agree it's 13 billion years old, and nothing changes. We can all agree it's 6000 years old, and nothing changes. We can all disagree on how old it is, and nothing changes. Some people really need a hobby.
Sweezo
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,215
And1: 36
Joined: Aug 12, 2001
       

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#42 » by Sweezo » Thu Apr 9, 2009 7:07 pm

i haven't been able to get that clip on my phone. stupid phone.

...Lopez with his second double play of the day, and right before Balentien smacks a double. Damn. With Morrow up in the pen I would like as much insurance as possible.
Sweezo
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,215
And1: 36
Joined: Aug 12, 2001
       

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#43 » by Sweezo » Thu Apr 9, 2009 7:11 pm

Way to go, Rob Johnson!

So far, despite the record...this team is infinitely more interesting watch than last year's team.
User avatar
Bay_Areas_Finest
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,505
And1: 1
Joined: Apr 10, 2006
Location: Bay Area, California

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#44 » by Bay_Areas_Finest » Thu Apr 9, 2009 8:03 pm

Gutierrez is a stud.

Beltre is lookin good up there too, and damn, what a performance by Washburn. I agree with Sweezy; This team is definitely more fun to watch.
Image
User avatar
Basketball Jesus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 31,180
And1: 7
Joined: Sep 04, 2003
Location: P-nuts + hair doos

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#45 » by Basketball Jesus » Thu Apr 9, 2009 8:22 pm

Sweezo wrote:Way to go, Rob Johnson!

So far, despite the record...this team is infinitely more interesting watch than last year's team.


I really think this team has 2008 Blue Jays written all over it: average pitching, terrible offense, great defense. Would not surprise me if they give the AL West a run for its money.
Manocad wrote:The universe is the age it is. We can all agree it's 13 billion years old, and nothing changes. We can all agree it's 6000 years old, and nothing changes. We can all disagree on how old it is, and nothing changes. Some people really need a hobby.
User avatar
TTown
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,464
And1: 11
Joined: Apr 04, 2009
Location: Oregon

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#46 » by TTown » Thu Apr 9, 2009 9:46 pm

I'll take a split in this series, if only because .500 is infinitely better than last year. We're a Morrow implosion away from being 3-1 and atop the division. Minnesota has a fine ball club... this was a quality series, aside from the 9th inning in game two.

Endy Chavez at the top of the order: like or dislike?
ImageImageImageImage
Sweezo
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,215
And1: 36
Joined: Aug 12, 2001
       

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#47 » by Sweezo » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:49 am

TTown wrote:Endy Chavez at the top of the order: like or dislike?


So far, I like it. There's a mean and he'll regress to it, but he's a slap hitter who's good at stealing bases. Problem is the M's already have a guy who does that pretty well. Do you dare tinker with having Ichiro at leadoff to leave Chavez there? Seems a little premature.
slaterbug
Banned User
Posts: 1,497
And1: 1
Joined: Jan 26, 2009
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#48 » by slaterbug » Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:13 am

Good stuff Morrow!
User avatar
TTown
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,464
And1: 11
Joined: Apr 04, 2009
Location: Oregon

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#49 » by TTown » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:18 am

I always felt I was one of the rare proponents of Ichiro batting third in the order. That is, I liked it in the sense that I liked his bat third, but I agreed with the general consensus that there were few other options leading off.

I'm not proposing to make a switch based on this four game series, but IMO it's something to consider if Chavez can keep swinging a hot bat over time.
ImageImageImageImage
Sweezo
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,215
And1: 36
Joined: Aug 12, 2001
       

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#50 » by Sweezo » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:23 am

Do you want to have Ichiro batting third with Chavez and Gutierrez in front of him? Maybe I'm trying to shake off old conventions here but I like having someone with a bit of power at 3-4 in the lineup.

I'd be interested to see the M's give it a shot though...Ichiro/Beltre/Griffey at 3-4-5 could prove an interesting combo, and I wonder if at this point Ichiro wouldn't mind having the chance to drive in RBIs. Certainly stops some of the complaining about being a lead off hitter and him needing to steal more bases, right?

It's interesting to find myself liking the team as it's constructed at the moment, and knowing one of the best M's ever will be off the DL and make the team that much better. I agree with the thoughts about the M's having a shot in a relatively weak division, but if this team could add a legit #3 starter in the rotation I'd like their chances even better.

It's going to hurt if this team looks good and Beltre gets moved though. I'd really like to see the team move Washburn and Batista while finding a way to keep Beltre...he does enough things right that I don't wish to see him trading for prospects.
User avatar
Bay_Areas_Finest
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,505
And1: 1
Joined: Apr 10, 2006
Location: Bay Area, California

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#51 » by Bay_Areas_Finest » Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:01 pm

I'd like to see Chavez lead off with Ichiro hitting third. I'm not too concerned about us having power in the #3 hole, mainly because we dont have a whole lot of power besides Beltre and Griffey, ha. Branyan, but he's clearly not a #3 guy. Ichiro would bring a solid bat to a spot that needs consistent hitting. Plus, I'm probably the biggest Gutierrez fan here so I think he'll be really okay batting second, regardless of who's in front or behind. But, if Chavez is moved down in the order (and not replaced completely so Junior has outfield time), 6th or 7th would be fine.
Image
User avatar
Basketball Jesus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 31,180
And1: 7
Joined: Sep 04, 2003
Location: P-nuts + hair doos

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#52 » by Basketball Jesus » Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:21 pm

The only problem with batting Ichiro third is now you’re limiting what he can do on the basepaths. Unless you plan on calling double steals at an alarming rate, Ichiro’s a lot more valuable when he’s allowed to turn his singles into doubles by swiping the free bag. He also hits a lot of ground balls; even with the fleet-footed Chavez in front of him, you’re increasing double play opportunities for the defense.
Manocad wrote:The universe is the age it is. We can all agree it's 13 billion years old, and nothing changes. We can all agree it's 6000 years old, and nothing changes. We can all disagree on how old it is, and nothing changes. Some people really need a hobby.
Ex-hippie
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,213
And1: 0
Joined: Jun 17, 2003

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#53 » by Ex-hippie » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:27 pm

I've thought Ichiro could be a good #2 hitter, behind a speedy leadoff guy. I would think he can really exploit the gap that's created when the first baseman tries to hold the runner on first. Nobody's better at nudging the ball into a particular spot than Ichiro, especially when it's on the right side of the infield. Alternatively, the first baseman can fail to hold the runner, and we've got a recipe for a very high-percentage base stealer.
blackery3000
Sophomore
Posts: 156
And1: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2007
Location: Bellingham, WA

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#54 » by blackery3000 » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:40 pm

Basketball Jesus wrote:What Brandon Morrow is paid to do is to play baseball. And it’s pretty obvious, save for a few decent appearances at AAA, and a one-game beatdown of the Yankees, that he can’t hack starting and that he’s a much better pitcher coming out of the pen. It’s not as if this is some kind of unfortunate development; most scouts had him pegged as a future relief ace all the way back to his college days. If anything, credit Bavasi & Co. for trying their asses off to correct his control issues, teach him a capable third pitch, and help him manage his diabetes well enough to actually be able to start in professional games. It didn’t work; we all need to get over it and get on with ourselves.


Just to clarify, I'm of the mind that the decision to abandon Morrow's transition to a starter was made way too early. I really don't think five starts in Tacoma and five starts in the bigs is a large enough sample size to say "he can't hack it" IMO; he needed more time and opportunities to develop. He showed flashes of brilliance last year in the few starts he did make, and as has been mentioned before I'll take 180+ IP from a good #2-3 starter over ~80 IP from a dominant reliever any day. Some scouts, including Jason A. Churchill, absolutely hate the decision to move him back to the pen and have called it "premature." Add in the fact that we now have a precipitous drop-off in talent after Bedard and I really think the organization should try to convince Morrow to reconsider this move at some point.

If his diabetes is really the big problem, then so be it—I'd hate to see him jeopardize his health. But I also have trouble seeing why Jay Cutler can quarterback an entire NFL football game and Adam Morrison used to play 35+ min. per game at Gonzaga while Morrow feels he cannot start games anymore (not to sound cruel, just being honest). I always thought if the disease was managed carefully, e.g. checking your blood sugar in the dugout between innings, etc., one would be able to enjoy a relatively normal athletic career.

But I digress. Morrow's our closer now and for the future. Maybe I do need to just get over it and on with myself.
User avatar
Basketball Jesus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 31,180
And1: 7
Joined: Sep 04, 2003
Location: P-nuts + hair doos

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#55 » by Basketball Jesus » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:31 pm

Type 1 Diabetes can affect different people in different ways. I have friends and family members that have led relatively normal and healthy lives by only having to monitor it on a regular basis. I also know people that have to walk around with an insulin gizmo attached to them at all times. Since we’re not really sure what the deal is with Morrow, let’s set aside the “diabetes moved him to the pen” angle until he comes out and says as much. Instead let’s look at Morrow the pitcher.

Morrow throws three pitches: a mid-90s fastball (Fangraphs has the average velo at 95.1 mph); a slider-like breaking ball; and a split-finger fastball. According to Fangraphs, he primarily a fastball pitcher (obviously), throwing it 70-85% of the time (towards the higher end when relieving) with his breaking ball his second-most thrown pitch, around 15%. He relied more on the splitter last season, throwing it 10% of the time, using it to augment his fastball during his starts. He also toyed with a change, which didn’t take: after throwing it 3% of the time in 2007, he all but abandoned it in 2008, throwing it 0.9%. While the fastball is plus (borderline plus-plus if/when he can locate it), and the breaking ball a decent complement to it, neither the splitter nor the now-scrapped change were quality offerings: Josh Kalk’s pitchfx data show that his fastball is truly his bread and butter, generating the most swinging strikes and having the best movement relative to pitch type. It’s safe to call Morrow a two-pitch pitcher: while he does throw the splitter, he’s not particularly good as using it as an escape pitch meaning he has to rely on his fastball/breaking ball combo to defeat hitters.

There have been studies done (a recent one was just done, I wish I remember where I saw it…baseball analysts? THT?), that have shown that pitchers with two offerings generally fail as starting pitchers. Given that Morrow has yet to discover a workable third pitch (at age 24, mind you), it’s feasible to believe that he was going to have a tough time cutting it as a starter, even more so since he’s primarily a fastball pitcher who has show issues with taking some off of his fastball to make it more effective deeper into the game. The bigger problem, in my mind however, is that Morrow has very little command or control of any of his offerings. Control has always been his downfall: his BB/9, in the majors and minors, has been well north of five. This was one of the reasons why the team tried teaching him a reliable third pitch; they wanted to give him not only another offering but also one that he could throw for strikes. Even if he the change was flat and predictable or the splitter not splitting, it gave him something to throw for a strike when he was behind 2-0 in the count. He was never able to develop that kind of pitch, which limited his development as a starter.

It’s very rare for a starting pitcher to succeed on a wild and fast fastball, a good breaking ball, and little else. The only guy that comes to mind is Nolan Ryan, but he was an exception (a freakishly healthy one at that) and not the rule. Given his repertoire, his inability to throw consistent strikes, and his health issues (diabetes and arm troubles), there is no reason to believe he would succeed as a front-end starter. It’s merely wishful thinking.
Manocad wrote:The universe is the age it is. We can all agree it's 13 billion years old, and nothing changes. We can all agree it's 6000 years old, and nothing changes. We can all disagree on how old it is, and nothing changes. Some people really need a hobby.
Ex-hippie
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,213
And1: 0
Joined: Jun 17, 2003

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#56 » by Ex-hippie » Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:19 pm

blackery3000 wrote:He showed flashes of brilliance last year in the few starts he did make, and as has been mentioned before I'll take 180+ IP from a good #2-3 starter over ~80 IP from a dominant reliever any day.


I agree with this, and here's a tangent. Who has a better case for the HOF, Mariano Rivera or Andy Pettitte? The rational answer might not be the same as the intuitive one...
User avatar
Basketball Jesus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 31,180
And1: 7
Joined: Sep 04, 2003
Location: P-nuts + hair doos

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#57 » by Basketball Jesus » Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:56 pm

On a similar tangent: your average closer is somewhat fungible. That isn’t debatable; take a look at the year-to-year saves leaders and the variance is impressive. However, how many closers have sustained dominant careers like Mariano Rivera or Trevor Hoffman, or Joe Nathan for that matter? Given a specific pitcher’s profile, if the probability of that pitcher turning into a solid regular in the rotation is 35% and the probability that the same pitcher turns into a Jon Papelbon type of young, dominant closer is 80%, does it really make sense to keep mashing that square peg into the round hole until it finally breaks based on the conventional wisdom that average pitcher > dominant RP or does it make more sense to groom him early to fully realize his more probable potential? What seems like a better use of resources?

I think looking down upon the act of grooming young pitchers as closers as a waste of talent is wrong and horribly outdated. Most pitchers end up relievers after failing as starters; rare are the pitchers that are groomed from the outset as true relievers. Of the three HoF-quality closers mentioned above, only Hoffman was a true reliever throughout his major- and minor-league career.

Not to mention the potential of grooming closers early on could possibly free you from the retardedly LaRussian one-inning low-leverage closer mentality and allow you to create a multiple-inning dominant reliever like the ones in the 60s and 70s. Now, if you could do that, you’d also be freeing up a roster spot; instead of carrying 12 arms, you could find more platoon bats. It’s a novel approach.
Manocad wrote:The universe is the age it is. We can all agree it's 13 billion years old, and nothing changes. We can all agree it's 6000 years old, and nothing changes. We can all disagree on how old it is, and nothing changes. Some people really need a hobby.
User avatar
BlackMamba
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 16,297
And1: 81
Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Location: Cd. de M
         

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#58 » by BlackMamba » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:36 am

about silva, isn't there ANY prospect that could start in his place?
User avatar
Basketball Jesus
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 31,180
And1: 7
Joined: Sep 04, 2003
Location: P-nuts + hair doos

Re: Opening series vs. Minnesota 

Post#59 » by Basketball Jesus » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:18 am

Yeah, but he pitches in the Orioles minor league system.
Manocad wrote:The universe is the age it is. We can all agree it's 13 billion years old, and nothing changes. We can all agree it's 6000 years old, and nothing changes. We can all disagree on how old it is, and nothing changes. Some people really need a hobby.

Return to Seattle Mariners