Greatest Mariner ever?

[Mr Swagtastic]

Is it safe to say that Ken Griffey Jr is the G.O.A.T.? I think he has to be the best ever, if you look at what he's done it's incredible. Here's just a snipit of what he's done, what it doesn't show is his leadership, passion for the team and organization and overall love for the game and it's fans. It's pretty hard now a days to win 2-3 Glod Gloves or get 2-3 back to back ASG (all-star game) votes but he did it for a decade back to back which is insane. He is the reason I started to watch baseball and cheer for the Mariners back in the day over the Blue Jays in the early and mid 90's. I still say their combo of Jay Buhner, Edger Mantinez, Alex Rodriguez and Griffey was simply deadly I mean your talking about 3 30-40 HR hitters and one of the best DH's and RBI men of his era who could drive in any of those guys if they were on base.

13× All-Star selection (1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2004, 2007)
10× Gold Glove Award winner (1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999)
7× Silver Slugger Award winner (1991, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999)
1997 AL MVP
1992 MLB All-Star Game MVP
2005 NL Comeback Player of the Year
3× Home Run Derby winner (1994, 1998, 1999)
Major League Baseball All-Century Team

if Griffey isn't in your GOAT list please feel free to post who is?

[TTown]

I worshiped KGJr growing up, played CF all of Little League and through high school (though by the time HS rolled around -- I was class of '03 -- he was long gone). And I think he's the 'face' of the organization for almost every non-Mariner fan in the country.

But I'd say Edgar is the greatest Mariner these days. Some organizational stats:

(Mariner only; I won't consider Griff's Cinci stuff)

Career Offensive WAR

1. Edgar 66.9
2. KGJr 61.2

BA

2. Edgar .312
7. KGJr .292

OBP

1. Edgar .418
7. KGJr .374

Slugging %

2. KGJr .553
4. Edgar .515

Games Played

1. Edgar 2055
2. KGJr 1685

Runs

1. Edgar 1219
2. KGJr 1113

Hits

2. Edgar 2247
3. KGJr 1843

TB

1. Edgar 3718
2. KGJr 3495

2B

1. Edgar 514
2. KGJr 341

HR

1. KGJr 417
2. Edgar 307

RBI

1. Edgar 1261
2. KGJr 1216

It's actually pretty crazy how many times Edgar/KGJr go 1-2 on the Mariner record books.

I don't discount KGJr's power, defense, and speed; he was obviously a more complete player. But I think Edgar was the superior hitter, and his longevity with the organization push him to #1 over what was an incredible decade by KGJr.

IMO

[Sweezo]

Of course, there is the issue of defense. Junior was a pretty good defensive CF when he was a Mariner but his defensive skills diminished. I don't recall how good Edgar was in the field when he played, but I mostly remember him as a DH anyway. If you want to bring defense into the discussion that certainly makes the argument for Junior that much stronger [Junior's UZR numbers are terrible, but they don't go back that far...generally speaking his defense went off a cliff once he became a Red]. That said...

I don't discount KGJr's power, defense, and speed; he was obviously a more complete player. But I think Edgar was the superior hitter, and his longevity with the organization push him to #1 over what was an incredible decade by KGJr.

...I tend to agree with this line of thinking. The pure numbers speak more to me than the awards or accolades Junior received when he was a Mariner anyway. Offensively Edgar was so good that the award for playing his "position" was then named after him.

Sure Edgar wasn't known as a great defender...then again, one of these players was more than happy to become a DH when his defense became an issue. The other was such a prima donna that teams kept trotting him out in CF because they didn't want to upset him.

Edgar was one of those guys who wasn't just a physical freak. He had to toil in the minors, and keep battling. Through lack of promotions, injuries, and eye issues he just kept battling. Griffey wasn't like that.

When someone's needed to throw out a first pitch or make an appearance at SafeCo, it's Edgar. Griffey could've been that person but ultimately it's not in his nature.

For me, Edgar is the greatest Mariner.

[Mr Swagtastic]

I think it's really splitting hair's on Edgar vs Griffey Jr as the G.O.A.T. Both are amazing players and were feared hitters, I think Griffey is the better power guy where as Edgar obviously was the better pure hitter.

Just curious if Ichiro player 3-4 years earlier here where would he be ranked? I put him at #3 the guy is insane, he will never have the power that Griffey or Edgar had but he's a damn good hitter I think the best in baseball right now in terms of average.

It would be tough to decide who's the best out of Edgar, Griffey JR, A-Roid, Ichrio and Randy Johnson as the best ever

[TTown]

Oh yeah, I'd have no problem putting Ichiro #3. He was an MVP and was instrumental in our really good 2001-03 run (spoke to someone the other day who said Seattle hasn't been "any good" since '01; do people remember we won 93 games in both '02 and '03?). Not his fault the organization went to hell. He's #3 in games played (he'll pass Junior this year), he's already our all-time hits leader, and he'll pass Junior in a couple other categories this year (runs, most notably) if our offense allows him to. Incredible defense and speed.

I think it gets really dicey after that. We live in a world where Jose freaking Lopez is top 10 in games played, at bats, etc. Not wanting to include A-Rod in our festivities here, you have to go pitcher, and really Randy is the only choice. 5x All Star and a Cy Young (with us), best pitcher we've ever had. IMO. What's crazy to me is that Felix is only 600 innings behind Randy with the organization, and so (knock on wood) he'll top the Unit in three years. Felix is already top 4 in wins, and has the best career era in franchise history. I don't know -- would it be crazy to already put Felix as the 5th greatest Mariner ever? Has his last three years (Major League-leading era over that time span, a Cy Young, and a runner-up) already vaulted him up that high?

Yeah, okay, I'd put A-Rod #6. Jaime Moyer #7. The Bone #8.

Gets really, really dicey after that... Alvin Davis? Freddy? Kaz? Can you put Dan Wilson on a top 10 all-time list? Can you put Boone on a top 10 list for three excellent seasons which were pretty obviously steroid-enhanced? Same with Tino, sans the 'roids?

[Jeff23]

KGjr for me. I have to say i used to have a man-crush on KGjr so my opinion is really biased.

[bennith13]

We won a lot of games in 02 and 03 but we haven't made the playoffs since 01. Supper sad. I remember my parents let me skip school to go the those playoff games.

[bennith13]

Oh, and my vote is for Jr. Put us on the map.

[Bay_Areas_Finest]

I honestly don't understand how you can compare Edgar to Griffey. I feel like its more of a sentimental pick. Sure, Edgar had a better average and is one of the game's greatest hitters EVER, but he became basically a full-time DH for much of his career. Fielding is a huge part of the game, and Griffey excelled at it at a very tough position.

Prime Griffey Jr is arguably the best player I have ever seen in the 18+ years I have been watching baseball. Yes, I feel like he is better than Pujols, A Rod, etc. His combination of quick-hand speed leading to unmatched power, one of a kind defense in the outfield, and speed on the bases was something special.

Griffey for me. For sure.


1. Griffey
2. Edgar
3. Ichiro
4. Big Unit
5. Felix

[Sweezo]

Problem is I don't know how great of a defender Griffey really was. He made some highlight reel catches that were second to none but whether someone is a good defender involves way more than that. When I watched baseball as a kid [which was when I watched Griffey play] I certainly wasn't thinking about things like this at the time.

Part of the reason I think Guti is such a fantastic defender is almost every play he makes looks routine...his positioning, speed, and ability to track the ball are so good that he makes things look effortless.

Many people think Jeter is a great defender [the guy still wins gold gloves somehow] and every season we're subjected to highlights of plays he made in the field to back up that position, and yet most available statistical evidence shows him as one of the worst at his position.

While I can look at someone's offensive numbers and tell you based on stats alone whether or not the person was a good hitter, it's very hard to do that with defense. If you showed me a video montage of a player hitting 30 home runs during one season I'd think that player is pretty good. But if I then looked at the person's statline and saw the type of line someone like Johnny Gomes puts every year and see a high strikeout rate/low walk rate/low contact rate I'd know that the 30 HR are nice but that the player really wasn't that fantastic offensively.

The closest thing we have to reliable defensive metrics are only fairly recent developments...and UZR wasn't particularly kind to Griffey.

I'm certainly not trying to say Griffey is/was a bad defender...I'm just wondering how to answer the question of how good he actually was?

[Bay_Areas_Finest]

Don't worry, Sweezy. I'm one of those people who can look past stats and whatnot to judge a players true/real value.

First off; Gutierrez is the best outfielder in the game. Hands down, case closed. That's a fact. For comparison sakes, Griffey never was in the same league as this guy.

I got a little carried away with the "one of a kind" defense in terms of Griffey, but he was still very skilled. His speed and pursuit of the ball was very good. He had solid instincts out there and I have no problem saying he was one of the top 3 at his position in the league during his prime years.

I also don't look at BA so much as OBP and SLG, so ofcourse OPS. Griffey career was over 900 which is ridiculous. Edgar was also high in that area (even better) mainly due to his walk totals which were impressive, along with the batting average.

I don't look at highlight players to judge a player. Jeter isn't a great defender. A Rod isn't a great defender. Hell; I've seen people argue that Ryan Braun is a great outfielder (gold glove caliber) because of his UZR stats or whatever. NO. Ryan Braun isn't a great outfielder. Simply watch the guy; Takes bad routes and misjudges balls.

[TTown]

Well, if there's one thing we can all agree on, Jeter continuing to win Gold Gloves is a high crime

I think these kinds of things certainly are sentimentally-based, on some levels. Statistically, I think Junior and Edgar are fairly even overall. Some individual statistics swing to one player over the other, but in the grand scheme of things they're pretty close. Junior certainly gets credit for his glove, which was excellent. For something like the 'Greatest Mariner', though, I think playing 18 seasons in Seattle is enough to boost Edgar over Griffey, even if Griffey excelled in the field whereas Edgar couldn't. The fact that Edgar played in every playoff game in franchise history, he's the one that got the double to beat the Yanks in '95, etc., certainly counts for something.

[Mr Swagtastic]

TTown just curious how could you leave Jay Jay Buhner off the list and include guys like Dan Wilson or Boone? There were some good Mariner seasons Kazuhiro Sasaki (2000), Kenji Johjima (2006) and others. I am not saying they (Sasaki and Johjima) but Jay does he was a great fit with Griffey had power for days a cannon for a arm and was a decent fielder.

I still pick Griffey as the GOAT and the greatest player of my baseball watching days

[Bay_Areas_Finest]

Jay Buhner is for sure in my top 10. After Felix I have Randy Johnson and then (most likely) Jay at 7.

[TTown]

TTown just curious how could you leave Jay Jay Buhner off the list and include guys like Dan Wilson or Boone? There were some good Mariner seasons Kazuhiro Sasaki (2000), Kenji Johjima (2006) and others. I am not saying they (Sasaki and Johjima) but Jay does he was a great fit with Griffey had power for days a cannon for a arm and was a decent fielder.

I have him at #8 on my list:

Yeah, okay, I'd put A-Rod #6. Jaime Moyer #7. The Bone #8.

[Sweezo]

If I had to do a list of the ten greatest Mariners ever...

#1: Edgar
#2: Griffey, Jr.
#3: A-Rod
#4: Ichiro
#5: Randy Johnson
#6: Felix
#7: Buhner
#8: Moyer
#9: D. Wilson
#10: B. Boone

I got a little carried away with the "one of a kind" defense in terms of Griffey, but he was still very skilled. His speed and pursuit of the ball was very good. He had solid instincts out there and I have no problem saying he was one of the top 3 at his position in the league during his prime years.

These types of discussions are always a little weird, because it feels like you are either knocking Griffey or Edgar down a peg by determining who you think is the best Mariner. When no one on here really wants to do that...

Hell; I've seen people argue that Ryan Braun is a great outfielder (gold glove caliber) because of his UZR stats or whatever. NO. Ryan Braun isn't a great outfielder. Simply watch the guy; Takes bad routes and misjudges balls.

Braun has traditionally had some of the worst UZR numbers in baseball.