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Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:48 pm
by TTown
There's a link on the Wiretap saying the Brewers are interested, and there's a story on ESPN Mobile that I can't find on ESPN's actual website saying the M's could get 21 year old SS prospect Alcines Escobar in return. Doing a little digging, he sounds like a great get:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/minorleagues/pro ... pid=444876The story also mentions JJ Hardy, but that's unlikely.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:56 pm
by Bulltalk
Hell, I'd do this trade, Washburn for Escobar. I might even throw in Balentien, too.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:02 pm
by jumanji
If Washburn gets you Escobar i'd be shocked. If you throw in a Clement or a Morrow then maybe. More likely it would be JJ Hardy who is a great glove and a career .260 hitter.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:12 pm
by Bulltalk
It does seem like there could be something there between the Brewers and M's. Makes too much sense. With Hardy and Escobar, Z knowing the Brewers so well, and the various pieces we could offer them to make it work....
No Morrow in the trade for me, though. As disappointing as Morrow has been, we need him as a starter next year in the event that we lose both Washburn and Bedard.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:13 pm
by TTown
I'd throw in Clement.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:27 am
by HeavyP
I'd do Washburn, Balentien, Morrow, Aardsma and Clement for Escobar. But they'd say no. If they were willing to trade Escobar they could have already landed Halladay. For JJ Hardy I'd trade Washburn + 2 of Morrow Balentien Aardsma or Clement.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:34 am
by Ex-hippie
HeavyP wrote: If they were willing to trade Escobar they could have already landed Halladay.
Well, that's the story they're telling on LL, but if you click through to the underlying links, it's not that they're unwilling to trade Escobar; it's that they're unwilling to trade Escobar plus Mat Gamel plus Manny Parra plus probably something more. I'm not sure why they're hyping the value of Escobar and Hardy on LL, but this much is clear: Escobar is not remotely close to being worth Halladay. And neither Escobar nor Hardy is worth the enormous packages you are proposing. They're good players but they're not blow-up-the-system players by any stretch.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:56 am
by Bulltalk
HeavyP wrote:I'd do Washburn, Balentien, Morrow, Aardsma and Clement for Escobar. But they'd say no. If they were willing to trade Escobar they could have already landed Halladay. For JJ Hardy I'd trade Washburn + 2 of Morrow Balentien Aardsma or Clement.
Too much. Morrow is a no-no for me. Who in the hell is going to replace both Washburn and Bedard if they aren't here next year? We need more than just Felix.
Who's ready down on the farm? We're going to have to hope that Morrow can be a decent 2rd or 3rd starter, and we're probably going to have to go out and sign some other decent starter as well.
But I'd do Washburn, Balentien, and somebody else for him or Hardy.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:19 am
by HeavyP
Ex-hippie wrote:Well, that's the story they're telling on LL, but if you click through to the underlying links, it's not that they're unwilling to trade Escobar; it's that they're unwilling to trade Escobar plus Mat Gamel plus Manny Parra plus probably something more. I'm not sure why they're hyping the value of Escobar and Hardy on LL, but this much is clear: Escobar is not remotely close to being worth Halladay. And neither Escobar nor Hardy is worth the enormous packages you are proposing. They're good players but they're not blow-up-the-system players by any stretch.
I was actually basing my info off of Erik Karrabell's podcast where he basically said if the Brewers wanted to make Escobar available they could easily land Halladay.
I'll take Mat Gamel too, although he doesn't seem to fit in with this organizations philosophy, I'd love to have him.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:43 pm
by Ex-hippie
HeavyP wrote:Ex-hippie wrote:Well, that's the story they're telling on LL, but if you click through to the underlying links, it's not that they're unwilling to trade Escobar; it's that they're unwilling to trade Escobar plus Mat Gamel plus Manny Parra plus probably something more. I'm not sure why they're hyping the value of Escobar and Hardy on LL, but this much is clear: Escobar is not remotely close to being worth Halladay. And neither Escobar nor Hardy is worth the enormous packages you are proposing. They're good players but they're not blow-up-the-system players by any stretch.
I was actually basing my info off of Erik Karrabell's podcast where he basically said if the Brewers wanted to make Escobar available they could easily land Halladay.
I'll take Mat Gamel too, although he doesn't seem to fit in with this organizations philosophy, I'd love to have him.
Maybe the presumption was that Gamel and Parra were in play, and the sticking point was whether to add Escobar? I don't know, I didn't hear the podcast. I do know that Escobar is regarded as a good prospect but not one of the very best prospects in the majors; he's maybe on a par with or a slight notch behind Elvis Andrus, who has a comparable skill set. Hardy has been just a 1.5 WAR player this year (just average for the position, or very slightly below), and although all seem agree that his bat should be better than it's been (and he's under team control for a couple more years), I don't see how he's the kind of player you drop everything to get.
Gamel would be great, especially if he can stick at third and not be horrible at it, but he's probably costlier than either Escobar or
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:49 pm
by Bay_Areas_Finest
Escobar for Washburn straight up would be too easy, and if it happened, our GM would already go down as the greatest of all-time. We'd probably have to throw in Balentin or Clement, which I'd be fine with.
I dont like JJ Hardy and want no part of him.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:28 pm
by BlackMamba
ok, so trading washburn, how much does it hurt the pitching rotation?
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:54 pm
by BlazersDozen
I'd love to Escobar to play for Seattle but the M's should also try and pry someone who can play 3rd besides Gamel (horrible defender.)
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:32 pm
by Bay_Areas_Finest
BlackMamba wrote:ok, so trading washburn, how much does it hurt the pitching rotation?
It hurts a lot, but Washburn isn't part of the future. Thats all our FO should be concerned about; Getting players who can help a few years from now.
We certainly aren't contending for anything in the immediate future.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:19 pm
by Bulltalk
BlackMamba wrote:ok, so trading washburn, how much does it hurt the pitching rotation?
It would hurt, as would losing Bedard, in spite of what we've gotten from him. Unless we sign one of the better starters on the FA market not named Washburn or Bedard, I think we probably have to try to resign either Washburn or Bedard in the off season, if we don't trade them at the deadline.
1) Felix
2) Bedard/Washburn/Free Agent
3) Morrow
4) (???)
5) Ryan Rowland-Smith
I don't know about Vargas, Olson, Jaka, or any of the other guys we've sent out to start this year. I suppose I'd be okay with Vargas as a 5th starter. Is there anybody down on the farm who has a shot next year? Aumont? Seems too early for him.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:07 pm
by jumanji
Bulltalk wrote:BlackMamba wrote:ok, so trading washburn, how much does it hurt the pitching rotation?
It would hurt, as would losing Bedard, in spite of what we've gotten from him. Unless we sign one of the better starters on the FA market not named Washburn or Bedard, I think we probably have to try to resign either Washburn or Bedard in the off season, if we don't trade them at the deadline.
1) Felix
2) Bedard/Washburn/Free Agent
3) Morrow
4) (???)
5) Ryan Rowland-Smith
I don't know about Vargas, Olson, Jaka, or any of the other guys we've sent out to start this year. I suppose I'd be okay with Vargas as a 5th starter. Is there anybody down on the farm who has a shot next year? Aumont? Seems too early for him.
I like Aumont's upside but not sure he's ready as you mentioned. Not sure the talk about him being a reliever though. I think you probably keep Washburn and let Bedard walk. I'd be semi-comfortable with a rotation of.
Felix
Wash
Olson
Vargas
Roland-Smith/Morrow
Although my guess is someone out of that group will be traded by friday.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:08 pm
by Bulltalk
When you think about it, our starting pitching rotation for 2010 is a concern. When you look at our supposed top prospects, they simply are too young, not ready. I'm not sure what is going on with Aumont, and whether or not they envision him as a relief pitcher going forward. Olson and Jaka don't exactly thrill me from what I've seen of them so far.
Top Pitching Prospects
1) Juan Ramirez (21)
2) Michael Pineda (20)
3) Phillipe Aumont (20)
4) Danny Cortes (22)
5) Nathan Adcock (21)
6) Maikel Cleto (20)
Then there's the free agent market for pitchers this off-season, a list I stare at blankly:
Starting Free Agent Pitchers 2010
Brandon Backe (32)
Miguel Batista (39)
Josh Beckett (30) - $12MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Erik Bedard (31)
Kris Benson (34)
Daniel Cabrera (29)
Chris Capuano (31)
Bartolo Colon (37)
Jose Contreras (38)
Doug Davis (34)
Justin Duchscherer (32)
Adam Eaton (32)
Shawn Estes (37)
Josh Fogg (33)
Freddy Garcia (34)
Jon Garland (30) - $10MM mutual option with $2.5MM or $1MM buyout
Tom Glavine (44)
Mike Hampton (37)
Rich Harden (28)
Mark Hendrickson (36)
Livan Hernandez (35)
Tim Hudson (34) - $12MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Jennings (31)
Jason Johnson (36)
Randy Johnson (46)
John Lackey (31)
Cliff Lee (31) - $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Braden Looper (35) - option
Rodrigo Lopez (34)
Jason Marquis (31)
Kevin Millwood (35) - Rangers can decline $12MM salary for '10 unless he reaches 180 innings in '09
Brian Moehler (38) - mutual option
Brett Myers (29)
Vicente Padilla (32) - $12MM club option with a $1.75MM buyout
Chan Ho Park (37)
John Parrish (32)
Carl Pavano (34)
Brad Penny (32)
Odalis Perez (33)
Andy Pettitte (38)
Joel Pineiro (31)
Sidney Ponson (33)
Mark Prior (28)
Horacio Ramirez (30)
Jason Schmidt (37)
John Smoltz (43)
Tim Wakefield (43) - perpetual $4MM club option
Jarrod Washburn (35)
Brandon Webb (31) - $8.5MM club option with a $500K+ buyout
Todd Wellemeyer (31)
Kip Wells (33)
Randy Wolf (33)
This is why I feel so adamant about not moving Brandon Morrow. I don't know what will become of him next year, but he seems like a better bet than the young talent I've seen up here so far, the not-ready-for-prime-time-pitchers down on the farm, or the 2010 FA class of pitchers this off-season.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:30 pm
by jumanji
^
I'd show patience with Morrow also because he's young and has a major league arm. I think the command will come with time. I also wouldnt be adverse to moving him for a quality left side of the infield player.
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:36 pm
by Ex-hippie
Horacio Ramirez will be available? Yesssssss!!!
Re: Washburn to Brewers?
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:03 pm
by TTown
I don't have a problem with trying to re-sign anybody in the offseason to stay competitive in 2010, but we really do need to accumulate what we can and build for a run in 2011. In theory, we could have three top-end starters in Felix, Morrow, and Aumont (I refuse to accept a bullpen role for him). Who knows what the future holds for our other prospects -- Danny Cortes? Michael Pineda? They may or may not be ready (Pineda probably not), but who the heck knows.
Ich, Ackley, Guttierez, Saunders, etc. will hopefully lead the hit parade. I have faith that the new regime can bring together a better offense than Bavasi.