RS 24/25 - Mavs @ Thunder (Sun 7PM EST Tonight)

[Captain_Obvious]

PJ dominating yesterday reminded me of the way he punished us with Reggie Bullock and Dwight Howard as our frontcourt against Charlotte. 17 rebounds too - great stuff.

[Mavrelous]

You might be right, but it's still much more likely that he plays less than he becomes Draymond or someone similar.

Let's say that Mavs makes Finals, tell me, are you more afraid of Luka being too tired/injured to play good or that our new acquisitions are not enough?

I didn't say he will become Draymond Green, I said he needs to make reads in an off ball screening system like Draymond Green does, as in, he doesn't need to be 6'1 fast PG that breaks down defenses.

Reads that Draymond does and score 30 points. Luka is using his energy mostly for scoring and I can't see that the best scorer of the league will become pass first Pg ever. Like he won't become off ball player like some thinks he should. Kidd can survive many things, but he won't survive unhappy Luka.

I disagree, and he doesn't need to stop being a scorer, tat would be stupid, he needs to become pass 1st PG when he wants to reduce his load, against lesser opponents or in certain stretches of games, tather than being heliocentric 38 minutes a night.
I know he can't keep going like this, and there is 3 years evidence that it's taking heavy toll on his body.

[Bob8]

I didn't say he will become Draymond Green, I said he needs to make reads in an off ball screening system like Draymond Green does, as in, he doesn't need to be 6'1 fast PG that breaks down defenses.

Reads that Draymond does and score 30 points. Luka is using his energy mostly for scoring and I can't see that the best scorer of the league will become pass first Pg ever. Like he won't become off ball player like some thinks he should. Kidd can survive many things, but he won't survive unhappy Luka.

I disagree, and he doesn't need to stop being a scorer, tat would be stupid, he needs to become pass 1st PG when he wants to reduce his load, against lesser opponents or in certain stretches of games, tather than being heliocentric 38 minutes a night.
I know he can't keep going like this, and there is 3 years evidence that it's taking heavy toll on his body.

I said similar thing. Play good system and finish games early, play different rotation against easy opponents and win games when he rests. Completely changing game of a superstar is extremely unlikely for multiple reasons.

[Andri]

We need a system to get easy buckets within that system instead that every possession is hard fought through an ISO or a pick and roll so Luka have to create off it with defenses designed to stop that. That means more set up plays, more transition buckets.

I get that that style is winning at PO's, but if we want Luka and others get to them without a huge toll that limits the ability to win a championship, we need the above

[Bob8]

We need a system to get easy buckets within that system instead that every possession is hard fought through an ISO or a pick and roll so Luka have to create off it with defenses designed to stop that. That means more set up plays, more transition buckets.

I get that that style is winning at PO's, but if we want Luka and others get to them without a huge toll that limits the ability to win a championship, we need the above

Fire Kidd and hire whichever European coach. Good luck with handling stars though.

[Dirk]

Who is this guy?

[joesha1698]

Who is this guy?

I considered this the Kyrie affect...guards (especially small ones) get better after playing with him for a year. See Cam Thomas nets... I'm not taking anything away from Hardy but i know for a fact Kyrie helps the younger guys...some of those moves are Kyrie -esque.

[joesha1698]

I doubt very much that Luka's body is the problem in the start of the season. Kidd wanted to somewhat change the system, but system was Luka and now we don't have the system and we don't have normal Luka, because Luka is lost in this (no)system. If someone believes that Luka can be deadly off ball, after 7 years of playing something completely different, will be hugely disappointed. And if someone believes, Luka can play RS in one way and then change his game back in height pick&roll system again in playoffs is wrong as well. Players and a team can't change their game after playing for 5 months something totally different.

What we're watching at the moment is highly random system and because of that results are highly random. Rebounding and defending for sure far more important than what Luka brings with spot up shooting. But you can' be sure that's is first round exit in playoffs, if we accidentally get there. If you go at that path, you should trade Luka and get players, who're better for this "system".

The same goes for Klay. He was always just a shooter, you don't want from him to initiate offense, because he's needs to be elsewhere at that moment. Klay needs gravitation that Steph was providing and that's for sure is not watching multiple players, him included, ball handling and initiating offense randomly. I hope they know why they brought him, it doesn't look like they know though. Until Kidd gets how to use important players, we will have those one possession games with random final results. Saying that Klay is bad, because he can't do what Naji does is wrong, especially knowing that Naji will be almost unplayable in playoffs.

Luka was hurt last year and throughout the off-season and now he's hurt again. His shot is flat. His conditioning and usage definitely has something to do with it. Of course its wear and tear on his body. One of the reasons Luka's always banged up is because he always has the ball. So, actually limiting his usage is a good thing in the long run. Its also a necessary evil and growing pains are expected as Luka and this team learns to play a team-first brand of basketball.

Luka being deadly off the ball has nothing to do with why we need a better system. We need a better system because one man holding the ball that much is holding back the potential of this team. We're limiting a lot of guys on this team just so Luka feels comfortable and doesn't have to adjust his game. Our offense now is a more read and react offense (like most of the NBA) - where we take advantage of mismatches, attack the paint to score or kick, reverse handoff to create movement, back door cuts, and we have the occasional one on one when needed...This keeps everyone involved (which forces the defense to work harder and account for everyone) while not being able to key in on just Luka and Kyrie. That pick and roll late in games will still be there for Luka but constantly grinding out that pick and roll (with all those dribbles) is gonna leave him beat up by the end of the year...especially with his conditioning. Heliocentric offenses do not win big in this league. Ball movement, man movement, mismatches, touch paint and kick, and pick and roll does.. Lastly, Luka not having the ball so much will also allow him to focus on defense. A lot of guys who dominate the ball use that as a convenient excuse to not play defense. If Luka's as good as people are anointing him to be -he should be able to catch and shoot, cut to the basket, post up, and score in a multitude of ways - and play better defense...

I don't see Klay initiating offense just because he brings the ball up. Certain guys do not need to defer to Luka just so he can slow down the offense and let the defense set up. Once again, we're slowing down the whole game and the agency of other players because of one guy's whole identity is caught up in having the ball in his hands. I think a better system is to have designated guys who have the green light to push the ball in transition. Personally, for me its Kyrie, Luka, PJ....because like Draymond Green off the rebound there is opportunity to push the break and find guys for easy baskets. This wait for Luka, slow the whole game down, let the defense set up is just handicapping the rest of the team and playing to one guy's strength...when you need others to step up in the playoffs and there not use to making their own decisions or scoring the ball - people will say, well Luka has no help...perfect example is Kobe's 2005-2006 season. He scored many 81 points in a game that season...they could have went a little further in the playoffs if they weren't so heavily dependent on him throughout the year and they didnt try to chance their approach to a more strategic team approach at the last minute. Kidd is right to get the team use to more a team first style now.

In the long run, guys having agency on this team and getting use to making decisions - and playing a more free flowing style - gives us our best chance to win. As long as they play smart, unselfish - and Kidd holds them accountable.

Luka is soft? What about others, who have missed multiple games already?

Do you understand that we were in the Finals and now we are nowhere near to the best teams of the league? And more importantly do you understand how much slows the game in playoffs? Having half court game like Luka is playing is the main reason that Mavs are playing great in playoffs.

Indiana pace in RS was 102 and in playoffs 93. And I guess, you would like Mavs playing 105? Ask our mod here, who understands some basketball, how basketball is being played in playoffs? Hint, slow, deliberately and in half court. Game slows when it matters, there's no free flowing style anymore. And you can be sure that we won't see in playoffs much of a player, who has made 3 only 2x in 14 games, so everyone better pray for Klay experiment to work, there's no option B.

Where did I call Luka soft? I didn't say Luka in the half court didn't help us in the playoffs. But Kyrie was huge against the Clippers and PJ post ups were huge against OKC. In the Clippers and OKC series they hounded Luka and he really struggled in the clippers series... In the Minny series, Kyrie getting out in transition in some of those earlier games made a difference... My point is, having a more robust (multiple people touching the ball / contributing) offense is just gonna take a lot of pressure off Luka and he will be fresher in the long run. I also think we'll be a lot harder to guard. I also think were more likely not to go down by double digits like we did many times in this pick and roll heavy 3 point offense...this new offense guys are touching paint a lot more and we're getting better looks at the basket and free throws..this will keep the game tighter and give Luka and Kyrie the chance to use their one on one skills when its needed...not all game long in the previous style.

We're going back to the pace argument. Look there's a difference between Luka slow and slowing down the game in general. If scottie pippen grabs a rebound he doesn't need to wait for Michael Jordan to push it up...because you can trust him to push it up and find a good shot, pass, or slow it down. So there is a way to push the pace intelligently to take advantage of easy opportunities. That's another element to our team that we cannot sacrifice just because Luka likes to walk the ball down every play. Especially when you consider how physical teams are with him or that some teams defend him really well because they just switch everything. Lebron had to learn the same lesson with Kyrie. Lebron had the ball every play and you had a guy like Kyrie that (depending on the given play) can punish the defense 94 feet and needs to make quick decisions to take advantage of his quickness. You gotta let other people play their games as well.

All I want is:
Destinated guys who look for early offense off the rebound (Luka, Kyrie, PJ, Spencer, Exum) - which means when you have a rebound or they have the ball they need to look for early opportunities and be intelligent about it. Don't wait for Luka. Push it and see if Klay is in the corner for a 3, if Lively is in position for a lob, or if you have a favorable finish or direct line to the basket. See if early offense is available and force the defense to defend 94 feet. If nothing is there...kick it back out and slow it down and run a set play. I'm fine with that. However, for a team who struggled to score against Boston in the finals....we cannot be satisfied with Luka just walking the ball up every play (while his teammates just watch him battle 94 feet and stand around)...we're letting the defense dictate the pace - whereas we should be hitting them on multiple fronts making it harder for them to stop us.

One more thing: The way teams are hounding Luka makes it easier to set Luka up for some easy backdoor cuts...we gotta start using misdirection when their over-playing him as well as what I mentioned above.

[Mavrelous]

Who is this guy?

Watching how the Mavs dominated the small Thunder on the boards, and took it to the rim regluarly, makes me have new found respect for the 2022 Mavs who were able to have good defense with Powell/Maxi for centers and DFS PF, they really punched above their weight.

[Archx]

I can only laugh at this point....

Luka and Kyrie play with almost identical pace this season. Luka is slightly faster. 100.61

The argument that others are waiting for Luka, is again, like almost every other argument, wrong.

Vs OKC Mavs had on average 3pts lower pace than what Luka plays for the season. If anything, playing with Luka they play MUCH faster.

[Mavrelous]

PJ dominating yesterday reminded me of the way he punished us with Reggie Bullock and Dwight Howard as our frontcourt against Charlotte. 17 rebounds too - great stuff.

Beat me to it! That's exactly how I felt...

[Bob8]

Luka was hurt last year and throughout the off-season and now he's hurt again. His shot is flat. His conditioning and usage definitely has something to do with it. Of course its wear and tear on his body. One of the reasons Luka's always banged up is because he always has the ball. So, actually limiting his usage is a good thing in the long run. Its also a necessary evil and growing pains are expected as Luka and this team learns to play a team-first brand of basketball.

Luka being deadly off the ball has nothing to do with why we need a better system. We need a better system because one man holding the ball that much is holding back the potential of this team. We're limiting a lot of guys on this team just so Luka feels comfortable and doesn't have to adjust his game. Our offense now is a more read and react offense (like most of the NBA) - where we take advantage of mismatches, attack the paint to score or kick, reverse handoff to create movement, back door cuts, and we have the occasional one on one when needed...This keeps everyone involved (which forces the defense to work harder and account for everyone) while not being able to key in on just Luka and Kyrie. That pick and roll late in games will still be there for Luka but constantly grinding out that pick and roll (with all those dribbles) is gonna leave him beat up by the end of the year...especially with his conditioning. Heliocentric offenses do not win big in this league. Ball movement, man movement, mismatches, touch paint and kick, and pick and roll does.. Lastly, Luka not having the ball so much will also allow him to focus on defense. A lot of guys who dominate the ball use that as a convenient excuse to not play defense. If Luka's as good as people are anointing him to be -he should be able to catch and shoot, cut to the basket, post up, and score in a multitude of ways - and play better defense...

I don't see Klay initiating offense just because he brings the ball up. Certain guys do not need to defer to Luka just so he can slow down the offense and let the defense set up. Once again, we're slowing down the whole game and the agency of other players because of one guy's whole identity is caught up in having the ball in his hands. I think a better system is to have designated guys who have the green light to push the ball in transition. Personally, for me its Kyrie, Luka, PJ....because like Draymond Green off the rebound there is opportunity to push the break and find guys for easy baskets. This wait for Luka, slow the whole game down, let the defense set up is just handicapping the rest of the team and playing to one guy's strength...when you need others to step up in the playoffs and there not use to making their own decisions or scoring the ball - people will say, well Luka has no help...perfect example is Kobe's 2005-2006 season. He scored many 81 points in a game that season...they could have went a little further in the playoffs if they weren't so heavily dependent on him throughout the year and they didnt try to chance their approach to a more strategic team approach at the last minute. Kidd is right to get the team use to more a team first style now.

In the long run, guys having agency on this team and getting use to making decisions - and playing a more free flowing style - gives us our best chance to win. As long as they play smart, unselfish - and Kidd holds them accountable.

Luka is soft? What about others, who have missed multiple games already?

Do you understand that we were in the Finals and now we are nowhere near to the best teams of the league? And more importantly do you understand how much slows the game in playoffs? Having half court game like Luka is playing is the main reason that Mavs are playing great in playoffs.

Indiana pace in RS was 102 and in playoffs 93. And I guess, you would like Mavs playing 105? Ask our mod here, who understands some basketball, how basketball is being played in playoffs? Hint, slow, deliberately and in half court. Game slows when it matters, there's no free flowing style anymore. And you can be sure that we won't see in playoffs much of a player, who has made 3 only 2x in 14 games, so everyone better pray for Klay experiment to work, there's no option B.

Where did I call Luka soft? I didn't say Luka in the half court didn't help us in the playoffs. But Kyrie was huge against the Clippers and PJ post ups were huge against OKC. In the Clippers and OKC series they hounded Luka and he really struggled in the clippers series... In the Minny series, Kyrie getting out in transition in some of those earlier games made a difference... My point is, having a more robust (multiple people touching the ball / contributing) offense is just gonna take a lot of pressure off Luka and he will be fresher in the long run. I also think we'll be a lot harder to guard. I also think were more likely not to go down by double digits like we did many times in this pick and roll heavy 3 point offense...this new offense guys are touching paint a lot more and we're getting better looks at the basket and free throws..this will keep the game tighter and give Luka and Kyrie the chance to use their one on one skills when its needed...not all game long in the previous style.

We're going back to the pace argument. Look there's a difference between Luka slow and slowing down the game in general. If scottie pippen grabs a rebound he doesn't need to wait for Michael Jordan to push it up...because you can trust him to push it up and find a good shot, pass, or slow it down. So there is a way to push the pace intelligently to take advantage of easy opportunities. That's another element to our team that we cannot sacrifice just because Luka likes to walk the ball down every play. Especially when you consider how physical teams are with him or that some teams defend him really well because they just switch everything. Lebron had to learn the same lesson with Kyrie. Lebron had the ball every play and you had a guy like Kyrie that (depending on the given play) can punish the defense 94 feet and needs to make quick decisions to take advantage of his quickness. You gotta let other people play their games as well.

All I want is:
Destinated guys who look for early offense off the rebound (Luka, Kyrie, PJ, Spencer, Exum) - which means when you have a rebound or they have the ball they need to look for early opportunities and be intelligent about it. Don't wait for Luka. Push it and see if Klay is in the corner for a 3, if Lively is in position for a lob, or if you have a favorable finish or direct line to the basket. See if early offense is available and force the defense to defend 94 feet. If nothing is there...kick it back out and slow it down and run a set play. I'm fine with that. However, for a team who struggled to score against Boston in the finals....we cannot be satisfied with Luka just walking the ball up every play (while his teammates just watch him battle 94 feet and stand around)...we're letting the defense dictate the pace - whereas we should be hitting them on multiple fronts making it harder for them to stop us.

One more thing: The way teams are hounding Luka makes it easier to set Luka up for some easy backdoor cuts...we gotta start using misdirection when their over-playing him as well as what I mentioned above.

Look, I advise you to look at some stats, before writing long novels. If you have looked at numbers, you wouldn't needed to write long novel about something that is already cared off. Mavs played with 7 highest pace in Nba last year. From contenders only Indiana and OKC played faster, so I doubt very much pace is a Mavs or Luka's problem.

Some interesting numbers about pace,

The fastest were Wizards.
Boston played with 19th pace.
Minnesota with 23rd.
Nuggets 26th.
And our friend Brunson with 30th.

It looks like pace is not something that universally brings success.

[Andri]

We need a system to get easy buckets within that system instead that every possession is hard fought through an ISO or a pick and roll so Luka have to create off it with defenses designed to stop that. That means more set up plays, more transition buckets.

I get that that style is winning at PO's, but if we want Luka and others get to them without a huge toll that limits the ability to win a championship, we need the above

Fire Kidd and hire whichever European coach. Good luck with handling stars though.

A simplification as an answer. Again, how we play brings success for the PO's. But 82 games of that also takes a toll on our star players, especially on Luka with his questionable conditioning. So we need to find different ways to keep up with RS and not to beat him to the ground.

At the same time, I hope Luka starts being aware of what he needs to do better, taking accountability to improve

[Bob8]

We need a system to get easy buckets within that system instead that every possession is hard fought through an ISO or a pick and roll so Luka have to create off it with defenses designed to stop that. That means more set up plays, more transition buckets.

I get that that style is winning at PO's, but if we want Luka and others get to them without a huge toll that limits the ability to win a championship, we need the above

Fire Kidd and hire whichever European coach. Good luck with handling stars though.

A simplification as an answer. Again, how we play brings success for the PO's. But 82 games of that also takes a toll on our star players, especially on Luka with his questionable conditioning. So we need to find different ways to keep up with RS and not to beat him to the ground.

At the same time, I hope Luka starts being aware of what he needs to do better, taking accountability to improve

I agree that Mavs should run more plays and more robust system, that's why I have mentioned European coaches, where that is a norm. Teams preparing plays and the system in preseason already. Preseason being very important part of preparation for the season, not like in Nba, where preseason is just about not getting injured.

On the other hand it's difficult for me to believe that teams can play something for 5 months and then change the system in something different in playoffs. Things don't work like that. We should be playing the same system, plays... in RS and playoffs, if we want to be prepared for playoffs. The difference should be in intensity and minutes played by star players. That shouldn't be a big problem, if Mavs would have played good basketball and winning games more easily. Mavs problem last year was, that they were fighting for the playoffs all season, having big problems with injuries. needing to play almost playoffs basketball second part of the season. Some other clubs were just cruising meanwhile. That's why Luka was burned to the ground. Kidd just needs to do his job and make efficient machine from Mavs and Luka will be fine. Playing erratic basketball, we're playing at the moment won't bring wins and won't bring rest for Luka.


Luka is having the lowest usage since rookie year, is playing 37+ minutes, not exactly what you would want in RS, has the lowest TS% of his career, while he has doubled % of assisted shots and Mavs are playing pretty bad. I don't think this off ball experiment works and I doubt it ever will, because Luka isn't good enough shooter and he needs ball in his hands to be effective. From Mavs perspective, having below average 3&D player standing in the corner and defend for 37+ minutes isn't ideal either. It would be much better to play Luka less and doing things he's elite at. While using Klay for the only thing he was brought here. Now we have Luka shooting open 3s and Klay difficult ones and even creating for himself.

The best proof how differently is Luka playing are shooting stats.

His career % of assisted 2P is 0.149, this year 0.326.
His career % of assisted 3P is 0.279, this year 0.500.

That's a huge difference, showing how different shots he's taking. And results? Totality opposite of what you would believe. 2pts % is down from previous season from 0.573 to 0.506 and 3pts % from 0.382 to 0.321, TS% plunged from 0.617 to 0.541. Those numbers say that he's totally lost, doing things he's not good at. And the most laughable thing is that he's playing second biggest minutes of his career, which totally negates any advantages of his lesser usage.

Bottom line is, Kidd successfully changed Luka's game and Mavs system. Luka is transformed from MVP candidate to below average Nba player and Mavs from the Finalist to lottery team.