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Devin Harris is overrated to me...

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Post#41 » by JES12 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:43 am

Pointguard01 wrote:Pointguard? yes.

Player? No.

Too many people want to base it off what a pointguard should be, but that shouldnt be the case. You dont need a Jason Kidd or Steve Nash to win a championship. Doesnt mean you cant win one with them, b/c you can, but there is no magical formula to it. So trying to suggest Devin is lesser of a player because he's more of a scorer at the PG positon than a distributor is silly.

Oh and Devin is a playmaker. Some of you obviosuly have a horrible definition of what a "playmaker" is. Now he is not a distributor, I'll agree with that.


Kidd + Nash = 0 championships....


How's that for irony!
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Post#42 » by Harry Heinous » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:38 am

Pointguard01 wrote:Pointguard? yes.

Player? No.

Too many people want to base it off what a pointguard should be, but that shouldnt be the case. You dont need a Jason Kidd or Steve Nash to win a championship. Doesnt mean you cant win one with them, b/c you can, but there is no magical formula to it. So trying to suggest Devin is lesser of a player because he's more of a scorer at the PG positon than a distributor is silly.

Oh and Devin is a playmaker. Some of you obviosuly have a horrible definition of what a "playmaker" is. Now he is not a distributor, I'll agree with that.



It definitely can be argued that Calderon is a better point guard and player than Devin Harris. I've seen a lot of both of them this year, league pass, and I would say Calderon has been the better player this year. He's having a phenomenal season.

Even his numbers don't do him justice, just like they don't for Harris. Harris is the better defender, but Jose on offense , is on another level. His shooting, efficiency, passing, playmaking, decision making, court vision, etc. are all way superior to harris'. Calderon is Steve Nash Lite.

The stats, PER all support Calderon.

Calderon:14.5ppg / 10ast / 55%fg / 48%3pt / 23.06 PER


Harris:14.4ppg / 5ast / 48%fg / 36%3pt / 18.68 PER
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Post#43 » by DanoMac » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:45 am

For whoever said that Harris is worse than Mo Williams or Kirk Hinrich, lay off the crack. I watch every Bucks game (live in Milwaukee), and Mo Williams is Jason Terry version 2. Shooting guard in a point guard's body.
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Post#44 » by Jemini80 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:18 pm

Jemini80 wrote:harris being the 3rd best PG in the east isn't really a great point of his talent, considering with Kidd in th league, the 4th best pg would have to be who harris would be better than, and the 4th best PG in the East is Andre Miller.


Sorry, this was during an all-nighter for my biochemistry exam

I can't really understand what i said either but i think the main points are as follows:


*Harris being said to be the 3rd best PG in the east doesn't mean much because of the following ranking system



with Kidd in the east, the rankings would go

Kidd
Billups
calderon
everyone else


subtract Kidd from this list and you have

Billups
Calderon
everyone else (Kirk, Miller, TJ Ford, and every other mid-level talent)


*add Devon Harris to the east now and people say he is the 3rd best PG in the East

*well i believe my point was, that isn't a big deal since it is basically just saying he is better than average mid-level talent, the best of which being Andre Miller (who for some reason is shooting more this season, i guess cuz Phili is almost as bad as the Knicks).


so maybe that explains why saying Harris is the 3rd best PG in the east doesn't mean much. It means about as much as saying the Magic are the third best team in the East. Hopefully you understand that correlation.
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Post#45 » by DDansby123 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:44 pm

Pointguard01 wrote:Too many people want to base it off what a pointguard should be, but that shouldnt be the case. You dont need a Jason Kidd or Steve Nash to win a championship.


I know this is directed more toward outsiders, but the Mavs fans who support Kidd-to-Dallas (the intelligent ones, anyway) aren't making any such argument. We're not arguing that "a team" or "any team" needs a true PG to win a championship. We're arguing that "this team" needs a true PG to win a championship.

I've watched this team game in and game out since Finley came to town. Those teams needed a pure PG, because Finley couldn't create, nor could Dirk. This team needs the same thing for the same reasons. Steve Nash didn't win a championship here in large part because he changed after he left here (for a variety reasons, including rule changes) and because Nellie and Cuban wanted to play Nellie-ball with Juwan Howard and Antoine Walker at the C spot.

We've pretty much done a complete 180 since then. If we brought back the same Steve Nash who left Dallas the first time (not the MVP version), we'd be closer to a championship than we are now. And the same is true, IMO, for Jason Kidd. Not because he fits the mold of some "championship player" or a "typical" PG...because he fits what we need.
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Post#46 » by Pointguard01 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:03 pm

Harry Heinous wrote:It definitely can be argued that Calderon is a better point guard and player than Devin Harris. I've seen a lot of both of them this year, league pass, and I would say Calderon has been the better player this year. He's having a phenomenal season.

Even his numbers don't do him justice, just like they don't for Harris. Harris is the better defender, but Jose on offense , is on another level. His shooting, efficiency, passing, playmaking, decision making, court vision, etc. are all way superior to harris'. Calderon is Steve Nash Lite.

The stats, PER all support Calderon.

Calderon:14.5ppg / 10ast / 55%fg / 48%3pt / 23.06 PER


Harris:14.4ppg / 5ast / 48%fg / 36%3pt / 18.68 PER


Honestly, I think your right in a sense. I think its a toss up. Harris is a much better defender. Calderon is a better offensive player overall. I would perfer Harris because I think defense at the PG position is a huge key but I think they are very close in talent, in different ways.


I know this is directed more toward outsiders, but the Mavs fans who support Kidd-to-Dallas (the intelligent ones, anyway) aren't making any such argument. We're not arguing that "a team" or "any team" needs a true PG to win a championship. We're arguing that "this team" needs a true PG to win a championship.

I've watched this team game in and game out since Finley came to town. Those teams needed a pure PG, because Finley couldn't create, nor could Dirk. This team needs the same thing for the same reasons. Steve Nash didn't win a championship here in large part because he changed after he left here (for a variety reasons, including rule changes) and because Nellie and Cuban wanted to play Nellie-ball with Juwan Howard and Antoine Walker at the C spot.

We've pretty much done a complete 180 since then. If we brought back the same Steve Nash who left Dallas the first time (not the MVP version), we'd be closer to a championship than we are now. And the same is true, IMO, for Jason Kidd. Not because he fits the mold of some "championship player" or a "typical" PG...because he fits what we need.


Well that wasnt my point, I was refering to people judging PGs talent based on if they are scorers first or passers first. But to the topic, I dont deny that a pass first PG would help this team, but question is if he makes us good enough to win it all. There is never any guarentees, but I truely believe we could aquire another risk like Ron Artest for cheaper and improve ourselves just the same. If we dont win a chapionship this year with Kidd, our future looks bleak. If I was sure Dallas was the team to beat after this trade, even risking our future, I would support it. Im not sure thats the case.
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Post#47 » by JES12 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:39 am

The worst part of this whole Kidd situation is that it put all other trades that would help this team on the back burner. Maybe even destroyed any chance of it happening.
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Post#48 » by DDansby123 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:44 am

Pointguard01 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Well that wasnt my point, I was refering to people judging PGs talent based on if they are scorers first or passers first. But to the topic, I dont deny that a pass first PG would help this team, but question is if he makes us good enough to win it all. There is never any guarentees, but I truely believe we could aquire another risk like Ron Artest for cheaper and improve ourselves just the same. If we dont win a chapionship this year with Kidd, our future looks bleak. If I was sure Dallas was the team to beat after this trade, even risking our future, I would support it. Im not sure thats the case.


I don't have any problem with that thinking at all. I just disagree, in large part because I think our passing is the number one problem we need to solve in order to become a better playoff team.

But it may still be possible to go out and acquire someone you think would help (more than Kidd) after the Kidd trade is completed. As DFN said, acquiring Ron Artest on top of Kidd (if that's possible) would make the Mavs the instant favorites in the WC.
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Post#49 » by Pointguard01 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:33 pm

Passing is a problem, but not te only. Our defense is still very weak and I dont see it getting any better with Kidd. Team defense gets better, individual defense gets worse. We still have Dirk/Damp working the pick and rolls and trying to help when the Pauls, Nashs, Williams, Davis' drive inside, and I'd much rather have Harris quickness than Kidd's rebounding. I just dont think the team defense will be as big a factor (on this team).

Offensively, if we had guys like Amare/Marion, or Jefferson/Carter that can get to the basket reguarly, then I'd be a little more excited. But all I see is more jumpers from Howard/Terry/Dirk. Granted, they may be more open jumpers, but none the less more jumpers. And we lose any type of consistent driving ability inside with Harris and Kidd's shooting/scoring is a considerable downgrade from Harris.

It could would, I just know that this is far from a sure thing and the consequence of it not working is way too big of a risk that I dont want to make.
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Post#50 » by DDansby123 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:00 pm

Pointguard01 wrote:Passing is a problem, but not te only. Our defense is still very weak and I dont see it getting any better with Kidd. Team defense gets better, individual defense gets worse. We still have Dirk/Damp working the pick and rolls and trying to help when the Pauls, Nashs, Williams, Davis' drive inside, and I'd much rather have Harris quickness than Kidd's rebounding. I just dont think the team defense will be as big a factor (on this team).


That's true. The problem you mention, though, can't be solved without upgrading our C position to guys who better defend the pick-and-roll. I don't think Kidd affects that much.

But as I've said before, our offense (or lack thereof) adversely affects the defense, and vice versa. As a local columnist wrote recently, our wing defenders (Jones, Hassell, George, et al) aren't as effective because there's nobody creating open shots for them. And if they can't get open shots, they're worthless offensively. And if they're worthless offensively, even a positive defensive impact is minimized, leaving their overall contribution something equal to or less than zero.

So, which player (Harris or Kidd) would help those guys contribute more offensively, thereby allowing them to stay on the floor? It's easily Kidd. Harris doesn't help those other guys one bit offensively. Thus, you could argue that Kidd's indirect impact might really help the defense.

Offensively, if we had guys like Amare/Marion, or Jefferson/Carter that can get to the basket reguarly, then I'd be a little more excited. But all I see is more jumpers from Howard/Terry/Dirk. Granted, they may be more open jumpers, but none the less more jumpers. And we lose any type of consistent driving ability inside with Harris and Kidd's shooting/scoring is a considerable downgrade from Harris.


But we also miss a TON of open looks inside because our PG doesn't have court vision. So while he creates easy looks (usually for himself), he also misses opportunities for others. Everyone on the team does that, though.

Still, the jumpshooting is a problem. Strange, though, it's only a problem when we're not making them. Nobody complains when Dirk shoots 4 three-pointers in a row and they all go in. Anyway, you need a diverse offense to be successful in the playoffs. We don't have that Harris, so if we don't have it with Kidd, it won't make much difference.

We should still be looking to diversify offensively, though. If Josh Howard will get back to being GREAT moving without the ball, he'll flourish with Jason Kidd.

Since you brought up athleticism, let me mention one other thing briefly. The consensus on the Nets board seems to be that athletic players without reliable jumpers (like Carter and Jefferson) actually HURT Kidd's production more than help it. Just an FYI for the group.

It could would, I just know that this is far from a sure thing and the consequence of it not working is way too big of a risk that I dont want to make.


What are the consequences of Devin Harris not working out for us? And how is it any worse than if Kidd doesn't work out? I'm not sure that one is worse than the other.
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Post#51 » by Pointguard01 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:06 am

DDansby123 wrote:But as I've said before, our offense (or lack thereof) adversely affects the defense, and vice versa. As a local columnist wrote recently, our wing defenders (Jones, Hassell, George, et al) aren't as effective because there's nobody creating open shots for them. And if they can't get open shots, they're worthless offensively. And if they're worthless offensively, even a positive defensive impact is minimized, leaving their overall contribution something equal to or less than zero.

So, which player (Harris or Kidd) would help those guys contribute more offensively, thereby allowing them to stay on the floor? It's easily Kidd. Harris doesn't help those other guys one bit offensively. Thus, you could argue that Kidd's indirect impact might really help the defense.


Honestly, I dont view it like that. I feel like that makes perfect sense but in reality, thats not how it works. More-so, they effect will be more Jason Terry at SG and Stackhouse off the bench at SG/SF. I doubt Geroge / Hassell see much of the floor (not that they were before) and Eddie Jones will probably see less and less minutes.

DDansby123 wrote:But we also miss a TON of open looks inside because our PG doesn't have court vision. So while he creates easy looks (usually for himself), he also misses opportunities for others. Everyone on the team does that, though.

Still, the jumpshooting is a problem. Strange, though, it's only a problem when we're not making them. Nobody complains when Dirk shoots 4 three-pointers in a row and they all go in. Anyway, you need a diverse offense to be successful in the playoffs. We don't have that Harris, so if we don't have it with Kidd, it won't make much difference.


Yea it wont make much of a difference. Now if we thought this team was ok the way it was, then yea, thats no problem, but since we all wanted change, and yet we still are a jumpshooting team (and probably even more jumpers now with no Harris and worse at shooting from Harris to Kidd) then this is a problem.

This team was close to a title, it just needed to address some issues. Now we have a completely new team and those issues are up in the air.


DDansby123 wrote:We should still be looking to diversify offensively, though. If Josh Howard will get back to being GREAT moving without the ball, he'll flourish with Jason Kidd.

Since you brought up athleticism, let me mention one other thing briefly. The consensus on the Nets board seems to be that athletic players without reliable jumpers (like Carter and Jefferson) actually HURT Kidd's production more than help it. Just an FYI for the group.


I woudlnt count on Howard changing his game, though I would love it. Its so much easier to not use up all that energy and now that he can produce on his own, its doubtful he gets back to his old ways.

But there's no doubt that Kidd needs guys to hit open shots because he will create them for the other players, but the fact is we have all jump shooters (Terry, Stack) and then guys like Howard/Dirk who both seem to fall in love with the jumper too much. With no balence on offense, it makes me worried.


DDansby123 wrote:What are the consequences of Devin Harris not working out for us? And how is it any worse than if Kidd doesn't work out? I'm not sure that one is worse than the other.


Harris' continued improvement vs. Kidd's continued degress is the fact for me.

Kidd's shooting is down from 40% to 36%.
Kidd's tunrovers are up from 2.6 to 3.6

Yes the guy can still pass and rebound (though he wont be nearly the factor in Dallas wit considerable better rebounds on this team compared to NJ) but his game is getting less and less effective.
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Post#52 » by DDansby123 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:29 am

Pointguard01 wrote:Honestly, I dont view it like that. I feel like that makes perfect sense but in reality, thats not how it works. More-so, they effect will be more Jason Terry at SG and Stackhouse off the bench at SG/SF. I doubt Geroge / Hassell see much of the floor (not that they were before) and Eddie Jones will probably see less and less minutes.


Those guys haven't played well, no doubt, and that's on their shoulders primarily, not other guys. But it's not just a theory that they play worse without a good PG/creator offensively. That's a fact from what I've seen.

Yea it wont make much of a difference. Now if we thought this team was ok the way it was, then yea, thats no problem, but since we all wanted change, and yet we still are a jumpshooting team (and probably even more jumpers now with no Harris and worse at shooting from Harris to Kidd) then this is a problem.


It's two different approaches to fixing the same problem. One, you can seek out slashers instead of shooters. Alternatively, you can find a great passer to make shooting easier for the guys already on the team. I like the second option better, because the first guy doesn't solve the passing problem, which, IMO, is more important/pressing than the jumpshooting issue.

This team was close to a title, it just needed to address some issues. Now we have a completely new team and those issues are up in the air.


I don't see how the team's any closer to a title than we were last season, and we all know how that turned out.

Harris' continued improvement vs. Kidd's continued degress is the fact for me.


I suppose, but we haven't seen how Kidd plays on a team that he's actually halfway excited about. The numbers you mentioned came on a horrible team when he was unhappy. Maybe they don't improve in Dallas, but I think we should give him the chance before writing him off.

Yes the guy can still pass and rebound (though he wont be nearly the factor in Dallas wit considerable better rebounds on this team compared to NJ) but his game is getting less and less effective.


I've never cared a lick about the rebounds, but his passing stats will likely get better in Dallas, given better scorers all around. And since I feel his passing is desparately needed here, they may improve even more.

But as long as we're looking at stats, let's be accurate here. Compared to his career numbers, this season's 3pt%, FT%, rebounds, and assists are all up (with no change in MPG). His turnovers are up slightly, but his AST/TO ratio is equal to his career ratio. The only thing down is his FG%, PPS, TS%, and PER, and all of those pretty much result from the same thing: poorer shooting this year than last.

Now, if that's a sign of a declining player, we should be VERY worried about Dirk, too.
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Post#53 » by DDansby123 » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:46 pm

PG, I think what it boils down to for me is that the offense is my primary concern. And I think Kidd's team defense will offset losing Harris' individual defense. We need to replace Diop's defense in the middle if possible, but I actually thought his defense was a bit overrated.

Anway, I see three problems offensively: too many jumpshooters, too few passers, and everybody prefers going one-on-one to score. Now, bringing in Kidd alleviates the latter two, which I think are the biggest problems anyway. Bringing in, say, Artest, Miller, or Maggette would likely only alleviate on of those problems (or none). So that's where I'm coming from, just to condense it a bit. :)
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Post#54 » by Pointguard01 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:31 am

Yea I understand both sides. I dont think one side is right or the other side is wrong,except those who take it to the extreme, but I fall on the side that would have liked to see Harris remain here, and moving others out (Terry, Stack, ect). Maybe that really isnt an option with Avery as coach and thus Harris was the only option (and had the best trade value obviosuly).

Lets just see what Kidd can do and hope for the best. I think he's gonna look good on this team, dont get me wrong, its the question of is it enough and it all speculation until at the very least Mid May.
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Post#55 » by your_dallas_mavericks » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:13 pm

Last I checked, Devin Harris is a Net. Just thought I would point that out :)
If we could just close games with Luka, Kyrie, Green, Maxi, and Wood that'd be great...
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Post#56 » by hiredgun827 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:37 pm

its funny hes traded now hes overrated :lol:

but j kidd is over rated also not that extent but his effect on a game is no where near where it used to be back in '04 still a great player.

the mavs in my opinion didnt need a better point guard they had a good one in harris what they needed was a floor genreal and i believe they have that now. good luck guys 8)

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