This team is a joke

[jwa1107]

OMG!!! WTF?!?! THIS T34M IS TEH SUK!!!

[DDansby123]

OK, here we go...

(1) Avery stunk it up last night, and his coaching has been questionable all season. We all agree on that.

(2) Last night emphasized a point so many others (myself included) have made over the last several years: teams don't worry too much about anyone on this team not named Dirk Nowitzki. Howard looked like that player for awhile and has fizzled. JET's nowhere near that level. Kidd's a facilitator, not a guy who'll take over a game.

(3) I began this season by reserving judgment until the playoffs. I'm sticking to that.

(4) Hypothetical time: if Josh Howard returns to normal, how does the team look then?

(5) Why are we abandoning the "give it time" approach vis a vis Kidd? The team looks horrible without Dirk (as they pretty much always do), and that's a reason to jump ship?

(6) I'm just as frustrated with this team as the rest of you. I couldn't even stomach the last several minutes of the game last night and was disgusted by the team's play overall. But as awful as it was, I really don't think it means anything without Dirk (except in terms of (2) above). As I said, see (3) above.

(7) About this time in 05-06, the Mavs lost 4 out of 5 against quality opponents (3 of the 4 losses were on the road). Sound familiar? We all know what happened in the playoffs. FYI, same thing happened the year before: 4 losses in 5 games, 3 of the 4 on the road. These stretches happen, and the Mavs always look bad in the process. But they ultimately rebound to be fairly successful in the postseason (depending on your POV.

[dirkforpres]

If Josh could play like he did last season, then the Mavs would be in teriffic shape, but I still think that isnt really our problem... When we allow guys like RAFER ALSTON to have career nights against us, then we have a problem... Avery continues to put Stack, Kidd, and Terry on guys like Kobe, TMac, and Deron Williams... WTF?

[mavsfoty]

OK, here we go...

(1) Avery stunk it up last night, and his coaching has been questionable all season. We all agree on that.

(2) Last night emphasized a point so many others (myself included) have made over the last several years: teams don't worry too much about anyone on this team not named Dirk Nowitzki. Howard looked like that player for awhile and has fizzled. JET's nowhere near that level. Kidd's a facilitator, not a guy who'll take over a game.

(3) I began this season by reserving judgment until the playoffs. I'm sticking to that.

(4) Hypothetical time: if Josh Howard returns to normal, how does the team look then?

(5) Why are we abandoning the "give it time" approach vis a vis Kidd? The team looks horrible without Dirk (as they pretty much always do), and that's a reason to jump ship?

(6) I'm just as frustrated with this team as the rest of you. I couldn't even stomach the last several minutes of the game last night and was disgusted by the team's play overall. But as awful as it was, I really don't think it means anything without Dirk (except in terms of (2) above). As I said, see (3) above.

(7) About this time in 05-06, the Mavs lost 4 out of 5 against quality opponents (3 of the 4 losses were on the road). Sound familiar? We all know what happened in the playoffs. FYI, same thing happened the year before: 4 losses in 5 games, 3 of the 4 on the road. These stretches happen, and the Mavs always look bad in the process. But they ultimately rebound to be fairly successful in the postseason (depending on your POV.

Well said. Well thought out. I'm drinking your Kool-Aid.

[JES12]

(5) Why are we abandoning the "give it time" approach vis a vis Kidd? The team looks horrible without Dirk (as they pretty much always do), and that's a reason to jump ship?

Everything except the above I can agree with.

However, the Kidd trade was to win immediatly. Like, ASAP! If Kidd is so much better than our previous PG, 7 games (Hornets, Grizzlies, Wolves, Bulls, Spurs, Kings, Lakers) should be enough to beat a middle of the pack Utah and Houston teams. Forget Dirk! They were without Yao! We should have been on par to beat those two teams even with transition time. If we neede more time, then the trade should have waited until the offseason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT IS NO EXCUSE!

This team should have beat the Jazz and beat the Yao-less Rockets instead of being blown out at home.

PERIOD!

Nobody's abaondoning a "give it time" approach as there should not have been any time if Kidd is so much better as to give picks and Diop on top of a 10 year younger PG. My, give it time appraoch (though I really did not want to give any time) was that 7 games and after 9, I am completely disgusted!

[Teffer10]

I believe that part of the reason Avery picks on Kidd and Dirk is because he doesn't want to call out guys like Stack, Terry, Geoirge, Bass.. etc etc because if he starts calling out those guys then guess what.. the team REALLY turns on him.

Dirk was the perfect patsy in that way though because he just takes the abuse and takes the abuse and you know he will just suck it up. The perfect whipping boy.

Maybe he thinks the same with Kidd too because he is so new and has to be on his best behavior considering what happened in New Jersey.

Maybe he also blames Kidd because because like Dirk if he blames those guys for not driving and posting enough it takes Avery off the hook for his weak offense. Then Avery just uses the excuse that "jumpshots" don't win championships.. you have to drive and post up every play.

Avery is a leader who doesn't know how to manage. His leadership was effective in the first few seasons because he was able to influence the team and make them believers. He had just enough talent and some luck (Duncan and Amare injuries) to get to the finals.

However, the team is not buying into this leadership style now and doesn't seem to believe in themselves. Avery's inability to manage has really surfaced this season (as well as the GS and Heat series) so I'm beginning to think our only hope this season is to let Avery go. I think he has used up every motivational tool that he has.

Donnie should probably take over this team now if we want any chance at a championship.

[f l u r p]

Honestly, the uproar amongst fans, both ours and those of other teams, is predominantly rooted in the fact that they have all been in deep denial about where this team was, is and will be.

2 years ago, the finals was an absolute fluke.
Last year, a freakish regular season, finally revealed for what it was .. a fluke
This year we're actually playing about right where we should be.

I'm sorry if people were simply not observant enough the past 2 years to see what the team really was, but not knowing what we had then is really no excuse to now proclaim that the team is a bunch of underachieving losers.

They're about as good as they have been. no more, no less. Add to it that the West is insanely competitive and I really don't see all that much to complain about.

As to the Kidd deal, I think we're actually playing a bit better since the trade and I see it improving as time goes on. Devin was seriously overrated here and not worth all the tears that have been shed.

Open your eyes folks. We're a team that hasn't had two legitimate all-stars in 4 years. If that means we're a joke or that we suck, so be it.

[italy_23]

-= original quote snipped =-



Avery is a leader who doesn't know how to manage. His leadership was effective in the first few seasons because he was able to influence the team and make them believers. He had just enough talent and some luck (Duncan and Amare injuries) to get to the finals.

However, the team is not buying into this leadership style now and doesn't seem to believe in themselves. Avery's inability to manage has really surfaced this season (as well as the GS and Heat series) so I'm beginning to think our only hope this season is to let Avery go. I think he has used up every motivational tool that he has.

Donnie should probably take over this team now if we want any chance at a championship.

100% agree

[Duiz]

I think Avery has been the problem not the Team.

[DDansby123]

Honestly, the uproar amongst fans, both ours and those of other teams, is predominantly rooted in the fact that they have all been in deep denial about where this team was, is and will be.

2 years ago, the finals was an absolute fluke.
Last year, a freakish regular season, finally revealed for what it was .. a fluke
This year we're actually playing about right where we should be.

I'm sorry if people were simply not observant enough the past 2 years to see what the team really was, but not knowing what we had then is really no excuse to now proclaim that the team is a bunch of underachieving losers.

They're about as good as they have been. no more, no less. Add to it that the West is insanely competitive and I really don't see all that much to complain about.

As to the Kidd deal, I think we're actually playing a bit better since the trade and I see it improving as time goes on. Devin was seriously overrated here and not worth all the tears that have been shed.

Open your eyes folks. We're a team that hasn't had two legitimate all-stars in 4 years. If that means we're a joke or that we suck, so be it.

Holy crap, I love you. I agree on every single point.

But let me add one thing to this: the "we" who have been in denial about the team is not as much the fans as the front office. The SA series and regular season last year left fans AND management with a false sense of superiority and security about our position in the WC. While we've been waiting for our "stars" to get better and "liking our team" (as Cuban, Donnie, and Avery have told us), other teams have actually fulfilled or exceeded expectations as their stars have improved.

Donnie Nelson as a GM is good at only one thing: finding diamonds in the rough (like Howard and Bass). He hasn't made another good FA signing in years, nor has he made the right pick with a draft choice in years either (Howard being the exception). It's about time we started pointing some fingers at him.

The funny thing is, everyone's going to jump on management for the Kidd trade if the Mavs are ousted early. But it'll be their failure to improve this team over the past several YEARS that will be our downfall, not the most recent trade.

[Teffer10]

[quote="DDansby123"][/quote]

Very well put and why I think this team has been playing over their heads. We can blame Avery now if we want, but I don't think this team would have even come close to the finals if it wasn't for Avery's leadership abilities and motivational tactics.
The "false sense of security" that you mention is the key and something that you and I discussed in the off season. The FO did not address obvious weaknesses on this team.
The only part that I disagree is that I think Avery had every bit as much of it as Donnie. I think Avery felt as if those weaknesses could be addressed internally by shifting players' roles. That obviously didn't work which forced them to make a drastic move.

That is why I won't be too disappointed if they don't make the POs this year. This core of players is not enough to get it done imo and a lotto pick would help give us another piece to deal with in the off season to add someone that may make a difference. We have very few trade options and obviously no cap room to obtain a star caliber player.

I personally feel that 09 is our only chance and the FO should do all that it can to get the best mixture of talent for that run (similar to what Ainge did with Boston this year).

[Teffer10]

-= original quote snipped =-



Sounds as if you need to take a couple deep breaths and reconsider your attitude towards this team. Your coming off as a VERY spoiled Mavericks fan. We are playing .629 basketball and yet your perfectly fine if this team doesn't make the playoffs. There are only 5 Western Conference teams below .500

This is not about giving up or being a spoiled Mavs but looking at the best opportunity to get this team a championship. We are a very good team but not quite good enough imo...at least not right now. That could change in the next several weeks and my thoughts may change as well depending on how we gel.

My point is that if this team beats the teams that it is suppose to beat but loses to all or most of the contenders and actually backs into the POs as a 7 or 8 seed, I would rather have a lotto pick going into the offseason. That pick would be valuable as a trade piece to help upgrade the talent level to go with Kidd and Dirk. Our options for upgrading this team in the offseason are very limited but that pick would help out tremendously.

My thoughts are more about probabilities and strategy than giving up on this team and throwing in the towel. You ought to know me better than that by now. I just think our opportunity will be greater in 09 than 08 if the FO makes the right moves. Those moves will be easier with a lotto pick as a bargaining tool.

[ppp000]

I guess I should clarify: my biggest beef is with Avery and management. It's easy to say that's that the easy out (by blaming the coach) but I've seen enough of Avery's "coaching" these last couple of years to feel that he is the biggest problem. Sure we've had success, but like some of you pointed, it could be attributed to being both lucky and "fluke-ish" especially since the 06 run, we've had two historic playoff bombs.

I've thought from the beginning of the season that this team should have made changes the offseason. Kidd or not, this team wasn't going anywhere and it's shown ALL season, both before and after the trade. The crappy road record, the defensive breakdowns (ALL season), and now with the other West teams playing harder than ever for playoff seeding, the fact that the Mavs couldn't even get up for a home game (Dirk or not) was highly disappointing.

To me, it's obvious that Avery has lost this team. He can babble about jumpshooting all postgame long, but the fact that he is still calling every play and still playing the same ISO offense that has failed us in the past and the reason why we made this trade is absolutely ridiculous! Why can't Avery adapt a gameplan to take advantage of his players' strengths instead of trying to mold Dirk into a dominant post player (something he'll never be at this point in his career), mold Kidd into a scoring threat (again something he'll never be).

Why are we seeing an iso heavy offense all game long? Why can't Avery let Kidd direct the O? Why can't Avery make any defensive adjustments? Why did we even bring in Kidd if we have a bunch of players that don't run past the 3 point line? Why even bother with the "win now" mentality then? Josh Howard the player supposedly the one who was going to most benefit has regressed to the point where he might be a starter for a D-league team. If he's having personal problems, he needs to take time off b/c frankly his play is hurting more than helping at this point.

[JES12]

Honestly, the uproar amongst fans, both ours and those of other teams, is predominantly rooted in the fact that they have all been in deep denial about where this team was, is and will be.

2 years ago, the finals was an absolute fluke.
Last year, a freakish regular season, finally revealed for what it was .. a fluke
This year we're actually playing about right where we should be.

I'm sorry if people were simply not observant enough the past 2 years to see what the team really was, but not knowing what we had then is really no excuse to now proclaim that the team is a bunch of underachieving losers.

They're about as good as they have been. no more, no less. Add to it that the West is insanely competitive and I really don't see all that much to complain about.

As to the Kidd deal, I think we're actually playing a bit better since the trade and I see it improving as time goes on. Devin was seriously overrated here and not worth all the tears that have been shed.

Open your eyes folks. We're a team that hasn't had two legitimate all-stars in 4 years. If that means we're a joke or that we suck, so be it.

Fluke? If by "fluke" you mean lucky the Suns did not have Amare, I can agree. Other than that, I think "fluke" is the absolute wrong word to use.

67 win...yes, I agree. Last year Avery squeezed everything he could out of the players we had an masked our flaws. I think we were more of a 58-60 win team.

Harris over-rated? How about you under-rate him. Harris > Kidd...PERIOD! May not be the better pure PG, but he was the better player without a doubt.

We have been playing better since the trade? You can't seriously think that. If you mean better in terms of the play when Harris was injured, then yes. If you mean better than when we were playing nobodies and Avery was experimenting, then yes. If you are talking about when the measuring-stick games when we would be playing full strength, playoff caliber teams, you're dead wrong. We OWNED before the trade andd we ARE OWNED after the trade.

[Rand10]

I agree with JES. We were beating the top teams with Harris before he got injured and now we're not beating them with Kidd. If you want to blame that on not having time to gel with Kidd then that's fine. But to say that we're no longer overachieving is just an excuse for not being as good as we used to be.

[ppp000]

I agree with JES. We were beating the top teams with Harris before he got injured and now we're not beating them with Kidd. If you want to blame that on not having time to gel with Kidd then that's fine. But to say that we're no longer overachieving is just an excuse for not being as good as we used to be.

We beat the Spurs in Nov when the Spurs don't care at home.
We beat the Lakers before they got Gasol
We beat the Suns, Hornets and jazz at home

We also lost to a Duncan-less Spurs on the road
We also lost to the Hornets in OT on the road
We also lost to the Jazz on the road

Fact: we were not a good road team before and after this trade, against top and bottom teams.

This Kidd trade may or may not be a good idea (I don't have an opinion at the moment), but we haven't been a great team ALL season. You can look at our West record, but you should also take into account how many were won on the road vs. at home, against which teams and how they are different now and playing at a higher level.
To make it seem like we were a team on par with the Gasol-Lakers and the Spurs the way they are playing now is highly idealistic IMO.

I for one did not feel good about the same team that folded against Mia and GS to go into the playoffs against a much tougher West, but I don't know if this trade addresses those holes or not. I guess we'll see, my biggest problem is the inadequacies of our coach. I don't feel good about Avery going against the likes of the other West coaches in a 7 game series.