DEFENSIVE SG or OFFENSIVE SG??

[JES12]

Bell and Salmons are both upgrades to the SG position, but a trade feasable for both teams is not in the works, IMO. I would not give Howard if the best player is either of those two and I'm not looking to water down talent either. Any upgrade trade would be rejected by the Kings and Suns.

Now if eother team just wanted to cut salary, then I would certainly do:

Bell for George and/or Jones
or
Salmons + filler (Doubly?) for Stack

or something to that affect, but I still can't see the other team doing those trades.

[Bernman]

Stack has an extensive 2-year contract so he wouldn't help the Kings cuts salary. As I posted in the offseason thread, building for the future should be their primary objective because I don't see how they could delude themselves into believing the playoffs are reachable this season, or for that matter the next couple. Their Pythagorean win total last season was 34. They were lucky to win 38, and that even had them separated 12 games from the 8th seed. In addition they lost their best defensive player and second best offensive player in Artest. They'll be terrible regardless what they do next season and I think Petrie is intelligent enough to realize that.

Dallas: Salmons
Sacramento: C. Villanueva, E. Jones, Bucks' 2nd round pick
Milwaukee: Bass + filler from Mavs (various players who've just signed and would delay the trade until September/October)

[Teffer10]

Stack is only guaranteed 2M next season (unless the mavs pull off some type of miracle) so he has a virtual expiring.

How about Stack, Bass, and Jones for Salmons and SAR?

[Bernman]

Stack is only guaranteed 2M next season (unless the mavs pull off some type of miracle) so he has a virtual expiring.

How about Stack, Bass, and Jones for Salmons and SAR?

I don't know if Sacramento would want Stackhouse taking minutes away from their youngsters like Martin, Garcia, Greene, and Douby.

Anyway, I'm a Bucks' fan who wants Bass. Stackhouse would make more sense for Milwaukee also because we are trying to win now and have established veteran starters in Redd and Jefferson, but with no established swingmen backing them up.

Milwaukee gets: Bass, Stackhouse
Dallas gets: Salmons, SAR
Charlotte gets: Villanueva, D. Jones, E. Jones, Bucks' 2009 1st

Salaries match but there are trade restrictions

[JES12]

Bass >> Salmons and 5.5 years younger.

Salmons had 1 good half season his entire career (1st half last year). Bass played a full great 1st year concidering he was not allowed to play in New Orleans. He is so good, he made an MVP PF move to center to squeeze in his 19.7 MPG.

If Bass is leaving, we better be getting Garcia + (<--not just Garcia)

And BTW, Stack 2 yr, 9.0 mil....Salmons, 3 yr 16.4 mil

And I also doubt Milwaukee is in win now mode if they traded Williams. I can see the Yi-Simmons for Jefferson just to get a better trading chip than demanding, unproven, Yi. I say by trade deadline both Redd and Jefferson is gone.

[Bernman]

Bass >> Salmons and 5.5 years younger.

Salmons had 1 good half season his entire career (1st half last year). Bass played a full great 1st year concidering he was not allowed to play in New Orleans. He is so good, he made an MVP PF move to center to squeeze in his 19.7 MPG.

If Bass is leaving, we better be getting Garcia + (<--not just Garcia)

And BTW, Stack 2 yr, 9.0 mil....Salmons, 3 yr 16.4 mil

And I also doubt Milwaukee is in win now mode if they traded Williams. I can see the Yi-Simmons for Jefferson just to get a better trading chip than demanding, unproven, Yi. I say by trade deadline both Redd and Jefferson is gone.

Mo Williams made everybody on the Bucks worse offensively and defensively. He over-dribbled and couldn't find open teammates on offense. Defensively he was a sieve and caused every teammate to chase. He'll have some success in Cleveland because he won't be their primary ball-handler, but he was addition by subtraction for the Bucks because that had to be his role, at which he failed. Why do you think the Bucks received such a weak return for Mo Williams if he was such a positive influence on teams? Insiders reported from day one this offseason that there was little market for Mo Williams and they were right. Ridnour at least won't make his talented teammates worse. Ramon Sessions may make them better, he did post a 24 assist game last April and looked phenomenal in summer league. I know those environments don't provide proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but there is at least probable cause to believe he is already or will be a bona fide starting point in this league. Andrew Bogut averaged 16/10/3/2 after the new year. And that was without the jumper he's displayed time and time again in international competition and college. He's was 3 for 3 from 3 in his most recent game against Lithuania. And being a jump shot threat has set up a dribble drive game. Because those skills haven't been present yet he has some of the most realistic untapped potential of any player in the NBA....you're not presuming skills will magically appear....they're already there. Brandon Bass as starting 4 would be the missing link to the team. I would boldly predict 48 wins for the Bucks if that acquisition was made and no top six members of the rotation missed 30 or more contests.

Even if you believe Brandon Bass > John Salmons (by the way I hate that subjective, simplistic argument), everybody in the league is well aware Salmons would be more valuable to the Mavericks because of the position he plays. Everybody in the league realizes he has no future and little present in Dallas because he's blocked by your best player. That's why you are shopping him. And the Salmons + SAR for Bass + Stackhouse deal was proposed by a Mavericks fan following me initially bringing up Salmons' name. Salmons having more than 1 year on his contract makes him more valuable to the Mavericks, not less. He wouldn't essentially be a rental like Bass would be for this season if he's not dealt.

[JES12]

And the Salmons + SAR for Bass + Stackhouse deal was proposed by a Mavericks fan following me initially bringing up Salmons' name.

I was responding to him because he is one mav fan that always appears to suggeting trades for change sake even if it is a downgrade (like Salmons for Bass) especially if it means Stack or Terry is leaving (like this trade).

Salmons having more than 1 year on his contract makes him more valuable to the Mavericks, not less. He wouldn't essentially be a rental like Bass would be for this season if he's not dealt.

We can resign him up to MLE amount without using the MLE. It's no guarantee, but I'd easily rather have that gamble than to pay Salmons in 2010-11, so NO, Bass is still more valuble than Salmons. Oh, and BTW, just because the league knows we need a SG, it does NOT mean we have to make a downgrade trade. It does not put us at a weaker position to bargain. And we do not need to trade a great up and coming player for a almost 30, peaking at average, overpaid shooting guard that goes past the 2010 offseason.

[Teffer10]

And you don't think this team needs any type of change???

[Teffer10]

Berman, you have to understand that Bass, Stack, and Terry are untouchable in the eyes of some maverick fans. They would rather keep a backup to a superstar, a washed up slasher without legs, and an undersized jump shooter who can't play a lick of D than attempt to address the real problems of the team.

Bass for Martin is closer to realistic than Bass for Salmons in view of some.

[Sken]

And you don't think this team needs any type of change???

Yes it needs an upgrade in talent, not a downgrade.

[Teffer10]

And you don't think this team needs any type of change???

Yes it needs an upgrade in talent, not a downgrade.

We need a starting SG much more than a backup for Dirk. Salmons is an upgrade to anything we have at that position. And I wish everyone would quit overstating Bass' value. Its not like teams are beating down our door to acquire him. He doesn't have that high of a ceiling...especially on this team. He's a nice PF for a team that has a lot of talent at other postions but certainly not someone to build around. With Dirk on this team, he is not needed.
We need to stop dreaming about getting guys of Artest caliber for him...nobody in their right mind is going to give up starting talent for that guy. PFs the caliber of Bass are a dime a dozen in this league.

[JES12]

Berman, you have to understand that Bass, Stack, and Terry are untouchable in the eyes of some maverick fans. They would rather keep a backup to a superstar, a washed up slasher without legs, and an undersized jump shooter who can't play a lick of D than attempt to address the real problems of the team.

No, we just rather have talent than all scrubs.

Bass for Martin is closer to realistic than Bass for Salmons in view of some.

That's just dumb. I already said Garcia. You are WAAAAAAAAY over exaggerating.

PFs the caliber of Bass are a dime a dozen in this league.

Have you always had problems seeing what is right in front of you? Or did you just catch one or two games where Salmons may have been hot? One or both had to happen since you don't give Bass near the credit he deserves and Salmons way to much credit.

Its not like teams are beating down our door to acquire him. He doesn't have that high of a ceiling.

You are confusing talent (potential and ceiling included) and trade value. Bass' trade value is hindered because he has only done this 1 year (counteracted by age, unlike Salmons) and he is an unrestricted free agent next year.

Salmons is an upgrade to anything we have at that position.

Salmons > Stack (very slight and the difference in their contracts counter any added talent)
Bass >>>>>>>>> SAR
Nuff said!

[Teffer10]

Okay, I might have exaggerated a bit with the Martin comment and I apologize but the problem is that Bass does not have the credentials to get us a player that will be a big impact at SG. We are now in a position where we need to look at the big picture and SG need > Backup PF need. Singleton and SAR would fill any need at backup PF and Salmons is a decent all around player. Sure I’d rather trade Bass for someone who is better and more flashy but that is obviously becoming unrealistic.

The way I look at it, we have basically the same team that we had when Dirk was MVP, Josh was at his best, Terry was in his prime, and Stack/Damp were not fossils. We still lost in the first round of the playoffs and the parity of the west wasn’t anything near what it is now. So yes, I'm all for change because what we have has not worked (The quote on your web page pretty much summarizes my thoughts on that). Bass was a nice pickup last season but it is pretty obvious that he doesn’t fit this team at this particular time. He needs more than Dirk backup minutes and center will probably be out of the question this season with the signing of Diop and the abundance of centers in the west. If we don't trade Bass for some type of upgrade at SG then we will be relying heavily on Stack and Terry at SG again which we all know will result in disaster come PO time.

BTW - What player (SG/SF) do you think we could realistically procure in an exchange for Bass… assuming fillers would be needed to match salaries (I’m not trying to be sarcastic here)?

[JES12]

Bass was a nice pickup last season but it is pretty obvious that he doesn’t fit this team at this particular time.

See, that's where we disagree. Bass was a "huge" pickup, not a "nice" pickup. His fearlessness in the inside was a MAJOR hole that was filled. And his pinpoint accuracy on jumpshots (over 50%) is remarkable and an added bonus! And maybe we are spoiled, but his 80%+ (96% in the playoffs) at the stripe is very rare among big guys, especially young big guys. Now if he was like Maxiell on his free throws or a terrible shooter like Turiaf and Tyrus, or inept at defense like many PFs out there, then he would be "a dime a dozen" but Bass is far superior at this point because he already has skills that can't be tought.

The way I look at it, we have basically the same team that we had when Dirk was MVP, Josh was at his best, Terry was in his prime, and Stack/Damp were not fossils.

Salmons, in no way, changes that. However, Salmons has 5.5 years on Bass and is completley average at best. But hey, maybe that is what you want this team to be.

Singleton and SAR would fill any need at backup PF

No they wouldn't. Maybe the unkown Singleton will have a Bass like showing, but that is FAR from a reality at this point. And SAR would be lucky to see the floor again with his health.

We are now in a position where we need to look at the big picture and SG need > Backup PF need.

Agree with this 1st part, but the 2nd part is dead wrong. The void lost by Bass is MUCH, MUCH, INFENTESTIMATLY, MUCH greater that the difference between Stack and Salmons or Terry and Salmons.

If we don't trade Bass for some type of upgrade at SG then we will be relying heavily on Stack and Terry at SG again which we all know will result in disaster come PO time.

Same is true with Salmons who, once again, peaked at average. I'm open to trading Bass, but if the result is Salmons, HELL NO!

BTW - What player (SG/SF) do you think we could realistically procure in an exchange for Bass… assuming fillers would be needed to match salaries (I’m not trying to be sarcastic here)?

Because he would be a rental, and because we need him, I don't see us trading Bass. I see Dampier gone before Bass.

[Teffer10]

Either Dampier or Bass will need to be traded or this entire off-season doesn't make sense.

I understand what you are trying to say about Bass but I still don't see where he fits in with this team. If he could play some SF I'd be okay with keeping him but I don't see that happening...especially since we just signed George. Bass is simply too good to only play behind Dirk but doesn't have any business playing any position other than PF. Dirk is going to be required to play nearly 40 minutes a game if this team wants to seriously compete so that means Bass is only going to get 10 minutes or so at PF? That is a waste of talent. I like Bass at PF but not at any other position. And Dirk playing any other position is a scary thought as well.

It doesn't matter at this point because whether we make a trade or not, we are only going to be average. Green is the only change this team has made in the off season and what makes this FO think the team that couldn't get past the first round in the past 2 seasons will go any farther this season...especially with several key players past their prime?

[JES12]

Hey Teffer, think of it this way....

If we don't do the trade.....
PF injured
Dampier / Bass / Howard / Terry / Kidd
SG injured
Dampier / Dirk / Howard / Stack / Kidd

If we do the trade.....
PF injured
Dampier / Singleton / Howard / Salmons / Kidd
SG injured
Dampier / Dirk / Howard / Terry / Kidd

Personally, I take the odds on if we don't do the trade. In fact, It really is not a hard decision for me.

If he could play some SF I'd be okay with keeping him

I want to at least see them try that. He is similar build to Artest who has a post game but is technically a SF.