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Around the league -- Offseason edition

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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1381 » by Mavrelous » Yesterday 10:16 am

Bob8 wrote:


Re: Ayton
On offense, Ayton operates 10-20 feet from the basket, he doesn't roll hard, and he doesn't pop to the 3 pt line, this worked well with CP3 and works well with Reaves or smaller PGs because they utilize the pocket pass, Luka doesn't, that's not his game, Luka operates over the heads of the defense, and when the rim is sealed, Luka's go to move is to operate from the mid range, exactly where Ayton likes to camp.
On defense and rebounding, I'd love to be proven wrong, but he isn't physical and this leads to giving up crucial rebounds and doesn't protect the paint well, we saw this multiple time against the Mavs in 22 and against the Nuggets in 23.

Re: Laravia
Luka gets exploited on the perimeter, he's slow and can't handle dribble penetration, in addition to the lack of physical rim protector, Luka was helped a lot by elite low man forward who covered for him and switched to the perimeter a lot to help him, these were DFS and PJ Washington, that's why Luka worked very well with them.
Laravia isn't that, again, I'd love to be proven wrong here.

Ayton and Laravia >> DFS for RS, they give you 60 minutes at high level, in the PO, where teams win on the margins, they are worse, much worse IMO, Lakers nailed the off season in terms of bang for the buck, but not in terms of fit.

The main criticism levied against Luka was his pedestrian on/off, the reason was that players like KP, Brunson, Seth Curry and even THJ to some extent, don't complete Luka, but operate well w/o him, which lowered his ceiling (the ON part), and raised the floor of the team (the OFF part), when Luka got a good roster tailored to his weakness, but also, not good w/o him, do you know what was his on/off? He has +21 on/off and went to the Finals.
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1382 » by Bob8 » Yesterday 10:35 am

Mavrelous wrote:
Bob8 wrote:


Re: Ayton
On offense, Ayton operates 10-20 feet from the basket, he doesn't roll hard, and he doesn't pop to the 3 pt line, this worked well with CP3 and works well with Reaves or smaller PGs because they utilize the pocket pass, Luka doesn't, that's not his game, Luka operates over the heads of the defense, and when the rim is sealed, Luka's go to move is to operate from the mid range, exactly where Ayton likes to camp.
On defense and rebounding, I'd love to be proven wrong, but he isn't physical and this leads to giving up crucial rebounds and doesn't protect the paint well, we saw this multiple time against the Mavs in 22 and against the Nuggets in 23.

Re: Laravia
Luka gets exploited on the perimeter, he's slow and can't handle dribble penetration, in addition to the lack of physical rim protector, Luka was helped a lot by elite low man forward who covered for him and switched to the perimeter a lot to help him, these were DFS and PJ Washington, that's why Luka worked very well with them.
Laravia isn't that, again, I'd love to be proven wrong here.

Ayton and Laravia >> DFS for RS, they give you 60 minutes at high level, in the PO, where teams win on the margins, they are worse, much worse IMO, Lakers nailed the off season in terms of bang for the buck, but not in terms of fit.

The main criticism levied against Luka was his pedestrian on/off, the reason was that players like KP, Brunson, Seth Curry and even THJ to some extent, don't complete Luka, but operate well w/o him, which lowered his ceiling (the ON part), and raised the floor of the team (the OFF part), when Luka got a good roster tailored to his weakness, but also, not good w/o him, do you know what was his on/off? He has +21 on/off and went to the Finals.


I see things a lot simpler. Smart more or less covers DFS and now is Ayton under basket, who offers better rim protection than Hayes or better say DFS or Rui, because they were forced to mostly play without Hayes. Lakers were playing in playoffs without any kind of rim protection. That will change with Ayton.

We see Laravia totally differently, so it's useless to discuss further. I will just say, player who can score, playmake and is great in hustle stats are extremely useful.

About on/off. I don't know where you got + 21 on/off, he had + 7 on/off in last playoffs with Mavs. And + 10 with Lakers. But I will explain to you why Luka always had better on/off in playoffs than in RS. Far the most in 20/21 +32. In RS Luka and Kyrie were staggered, so he was Luka's replacement player. Jokic for example has nobody for replacement player. In playoffs Luka played 41 minutes, so there was really limited time he was off, we should take those numbers with a reserve, and even more importantly D in playoffs are totally different, pace falls and it's all about half court offense and there is Luka irreplaceable.
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1383 » by Mavrelous » Yesterday 10:42 am

Bob8 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:
Bob8 wrote:


Re: Ayton
On offense, Ayton operates 10-20 feet from the basket, he doesn't roll hard, and he doesn't pop to the 3 pt line, this worked well with CP3 and works well with Reaves or smaller PGs because they utilize the pocket pass, Luka doesn't, that's not his game, Luka operates over the heads of the defense, and when the rim is sealed, Luka's go to move is to operate from the mid range, exactly where Ayton likes to camp.
On defense and rebounding, I'd love to be proven wrong, but he isn't physical and this leads to giving up crucial rebounds and doesn't protect the paint well, we saw this multiple time against the Mavs in 22 and against the Nuggets in 23.

Re: Laravia
Luka gets exploited on the perimeter, he's slow and can't handle dribble penetration, in addition to the lack of physical rim protector, Luka was helped a lot by elite low man forward who covered for him and switched to the perimeter a lot to help him, these were DFS and PJ Washington, that's why Luka worked very well with them.
Laravia isn't that, again, I'd love to be proven wrong here.

Ayton and Laravia >> DFS for RS, they give you 60 minutes at high level, in the PO, where teams win on the margins, they are worse, much worse IMO, Lakers nailed the off season in terms of bang for the buck, but not in terms of fit.

The main criticism levied against Luka was his pedestrian on/off, the reason was that players like KP, Brunson, Seth Curry and even THJ to some extent, don't complete Luka, but operate well w/o him, which lowered his ceiling (the ON part), and raised the floor of the team (the OFF part), when Luka got a good roster tailored to his weakness, but also, not good w/o him, do you know what was his on/off? He has +21 on/off and went to the Finals.


I see things a lot simpler. Smart more or less covers DFS and now is Ayton under basket, who offers better rim protection than Hayes or better say DFS or Rui, because they were forced to mostly play without Hayes. Lakers were playing in playoffs without any kind of rim protection.

We see Laravia totally differently, so it's useless to discuss further. I will just say, player who can score, playmake and is great in hustle stats is extremely useful.

About on/off. I don't know where you got + 21 on/off, he had + 10 on/off in last playoffs. But I will explain to you why Luka always had better on/off in playoffs than in RS. Far the most in 20/21 +32. In RS Luka and Kyrie are staggered, so he was Luka's replacement player. Jokic for example has nobody for replacement player. In playoffs Luka played 41 minutes, so there was really limited time he was off, we should take those numbers with a reserve, and even more importantly D in playoffs are totally different, pace falls and it's all about half court offense and there is Luka irreplaceable.


I'm talking about RS on/off, Luka had on/off of +21 post deadline in 23/24 and even more interesting, he had +13 on/off in 24/25 before the injury (despite being out of shape and clearly not at his best, he had better net rating and on/off than much better stretches of his career like post deadline in 21/22, 50 wins season and WCF and pre deadline in 22/23 when he carried bad roster to 4th seed), this tells a lot about roster building philosophy around him.
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1384 » by Bob8 » Yesterday 10:49 am

Mavrelous wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:
Re: Ayton
On offense, Ayton operates 10-20 feet from the basket, he doesn't roll hard, and he doesn't pop to the 3 pt line, this worked well with CP3 and works well with Reaves or smaller PGs because they utilize the pocket pass, Luka doesn't, that's not his game, Luka operates over the heads of the defense, and when the rim is sealed, Luka's go to move is to operate from the mid range, exactly where Ayton likes to camp.
On defense and rebounding, I'd love to be proven wrong, but he isn't physical and this leads to giving up crucial rebounds and doesn't protect the paint well, we saw this multiple time against the Mavs in 22 and against the Nuggets in 23.

Re: Laravia
Luka gets exploited on the perimeter, he's slow and can't handle dribble penetration, in addition to the lack of physical rim protector, Luka was helped a lot by elite low man forward who covered for him and switched to the perimeter a lot to help him, these were DFS and PJ Washington, that's why Luka worked very well with them.
Laravia isn't that, again, I'd love to be proven wrong here.

Ayton and Laravia >> DFS for RS, they give you 60 minutes at high level, in the PO, where teams win on the margins, they are worse, much worse IMO, Lakers nailed the off season in terms of bang for the buck, but not in terms of fit.

The main criticism levied against Luka was his pedestrian on/off, the reason was that players like KP, Brunson, Seth Curry and even THJ to some extent, don't complete Luka, but operate well w/o him, which lowered his ceiling (the ON part), and raised the floor of the team (the OFF part), when Luka got a good roster tailored to his weakness, but also, not good w/o him, do you know what was his on/off? He has +21 on/off and went to the Finals.


I see things a lot simpler. Smart more or less covers DFS and now is Ayton under basket, who offers better rim protection than Hayes or better say DFS or Rui, because they were forced to mostly play without Hayes. Lakers were playing in playoffs without any kind of rim protection.

We see Laravia totally differently, so it's useless to discuss further. I will just say, player who can score, playmake and is great in hustle stats is extremely useful.

About on/off. I don't know where you got + 21 on/off, he had + 10 on/off in last playoffs. But I will explain to you why Luka always had better on/off in playoffs than in RS. Far the most in 20/21 +32. In RS Luka and Kyrie are staggered, so he was Luka's replacement player. Jokic for example has nobody for replacement player. In playoffs Luka played 41 minutes, so there was really limited time he was off, we should take those numbers with a reserve, and even more importantly D in playoffs are totally different, pace falls and it's all about half court offense and there is Luka irreplaceable.


I'm talking about RS on/off, Luka had on/off of +21 post deadline in 23/24 and even more interesting, he had +13 on/off in 24/25 before the injury (despite being out of shape and clearly not at his best, he had better net rating and on/off than much better stretches of his career like post deadline in 21/22, 50 wins season and WCF and pre deadline in 22/23 when he carried bad roster to 4th seed), this tells a lot about roster building philosophy around him.


Where you have got numbers for post deadline 23/24 season? Nba.com or basketball reference?

He was + 8 last year in Lakers too, being totally out of shape physically and mentally. I don't agree that very positive on/off is necessary telling much about how good roster is around him, It can tell simply that lineups without him are not working. That's why Rick and Kidd always tried to staggered Luka's and Brunson/Kyrie minutes.
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1385 » by Mavrelous » Yesterday 10:52 am

Bob8 wrote:
Where you have got numbers for post deadline 23/24 season? Nba.com or basketball reference?

He was + 8 last year in Lakers too, being totally out of shape physically and mentally.


In NBA.com you can get advanced stats for specific period
https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612742/onoffcourt-advanced?Season=2023-24&DateFrom=02%2F09%2F2024&DateTo=04%2F11%2F2024
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1386 » by Bob8 » Yesterday 10:59 am

Mavrelous wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Where you have got numbers for post deadline 23/24 season? Nba.com or basketball reference?

He was + 8 last year in Lakers too, being totally out of shape physically and mentally.


In NBA.com you can get advanced stats for specific period
https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612742/onoffcourt-advanced?Season=2023-24&DateFrom=02%2F09%2F2024&DateTo=04%2F11%2F2024


Where you see + 21 on/off?
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1387 » by Mavrelous » Yesterday 11:00 am

Bob8 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Where you have got numbers for post deadline 23/24 season? Nba.com or basketball reference?

He was + 8 last year in Lakers too, being totally out of shape physically and mentally.


In NBA.com you can get advanced stats for specific period
https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612742/onoffcourt-advanced?Season=2023-24&DateFrom=02%2F09%2F2024&DateTo=04%2F11%2F2024


Where you see + 21 on/off?

Here
His on/court is 12.6 his off court is -7.5, that's 20.1, I remembered incorrectly.
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1388 » by Bob8 » Yesterday 11:17 am

Mavrelous wrote:
Bob8 wrote:


Where you see + 21 on/off?

Here
His on/court is 12.6 his off court is -7.5, that's 20.1, I remembered incorrectly.


I see +12.6 and off court - 1.3, that's + 13.9.
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1389 » by Mavrelous » Yesterday 11:24 am

Bob8 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Where you see + 21 on/off?

Here
His on/court is 12.6 his off court is -7.5, that's 20.1, I remembered incorrectly.


I see +12.6 and off court - 1.3, that's + 13.9.

That's excluding the last 2 games of the season, adjust the date.
The 14 is the more realistic number, but add the last 2 games (Mavs got blown out), and you'll get 20.1.
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1390 » by Bob8 » Yesterday 11:31 am

Mavrelous wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:Here
His on/court is 12.6 his off court is -7.5, that's 20.1, I remembered incorrectly.


I see +12.6 and off court - 1.3, that's + 13.9.

That's excluding the last 2 games of the season, adjust the date.
The 14 is the more realistic number, but add the last 2 games (Mavs got blown out), and you'll get 20.1.


My stats have 26 games on and 28 off, you have 26 games on and 30 off. More games you have, especially with smaller sample size, when he wasn't even in the roster more useless data you get. Especially, if half a roster is not playing. So I would say around 13 is more realistic. Still good, but 20+ looked funny from the beginning.
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1391 » by Mavrelous » Yesterday 11:35 am

Bob8 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
I see +12.6 and off court - 1.3, that's + 13.9.

That's excluding the last 2 games of the season, adjust the date.
The 14 is the more realistic number, but add the last 2 games (Mavs got blown out), and you'll get 20.1.


My stats have 26 games on and 28 off, you have 26 games on and 30 off. More games you have, especially with smaller sample size, when he wasn't even in the roster more useless data you get. Especially, if half a roster is not playing. So I would say around 13 is more realistic. Still good, but 20+ looked funny from the beginning.

Yeah, 14 is the more realistic, but technically, he's 20.1, also, most players don't have Kyrie Irving backing them up, so take realistic with a grain of salt...
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1392 » by Archx » Yesterday 1:40 pm

Pelinka turned DFS into Ayton, Smart and LaRavia. Nico turned Grimes into Martin. :noway:
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1393 » by 41Dirk41 » Yesterday 1:59 pm

Archx wrote:Pelinka turned DFS into Ayton, Smart and LaRavia. Nico turned Grimes into Martin. :noway:


And Pelinka is not a genius...
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1394 » by Bob8 » Yesterday 2:00 pm

Archx wrote:Pelinka turned DFS into Ayton, Smart and LaRavia. Nico turned Grimes into Martin. :noway:


And what about JJ winning away games left and right with reserves, scoring 120+, while Kidd is making things uncomfortable, by his own words, for superstar rookie, and is struggling to score 100 points?
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1395 » by Bob8 » Yesterday 2:02 pm

41Dirk41 wrote:
Archx wrote:Pelinka turned DFS into Ayton, Smart and LaRavia. Nico turned Grimes into Martin. :noway:


And Pelinka is not a genius...


He for sure looks like one, he should get a statue for what he did for Lakers this year. Nico on the other hand...
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1396 » by 41Dirk41 » Yesterday 2:09 pm

Bob8 wrote:
41Dirk41 wrote:
Archx wrote:Pelinka turned DFS into Ayton, Smart and LaRavia. Nico turned Grimes into Martin. :noway:


And Pelinka is not a genius...


He for sure looks like one, he should get a statue for what he did for Lakers this year. Nico on the other hand...


Probably even a cow would have did the same :lol:
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1397 » by Bob8 » Yesterday 2:17 pm

41Dirk41 wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
41Dirk41 wrote:
And Pelinka is not a genius...


He for sure looks like one, he should get a statue for what he did for Lakers this year. Nico on the other hand...


Probably even a cow would have did the same :lol:


What does that make Nico? :lol: (Please Use More Appropriate Word) turkey?

Edit: I see AI is changing words in RealGm now. :lol:
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1398 » by 41Dirk41 » Yesterday 7:38 pm

Read on Twitter
/photo/1

Anyone surprise?
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1399 » by Bob8 » Yesterday 8:20 pm

41Dirk41 wrote:
Read on Twitter
/photo/1

Anyone surprise?


Team without shooters and guards, playing with big lineup is the worst in paint. :lol:
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Re: Around the league -- Offseason edition 

Post#1400 » by 41Dirk41 » Yesterday 8:41 pm

Bob8 wrote:
41Dirk41 wrote:
Read on Twitter
/photo/1

Anyone surprise?


Team without shooters and guards, playing with big lineup is the worst in paint. :lol:


Those 7 games were a completely basketball no sense... I was prepared for the worst but they exceeded my expectations.

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