Calling out JHO, and JES12 you were right

[DDansby123]

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To be fair without just bashing again, I did predict Kidd would never get double teamed. I did predict the other players would be defended better because more attention could be spent on them. I did predict less open shots unless Kidd was amazingly better than he has been for the last 3 year.

Kidd does get double-teamed (in the post), and I haven't seen fewer open looks on the perimeter. But more attention has been paid to defending guys other than Jason Kidd. We pretty much saw that one coming, given Kidd's history of shooting troubles (even though he's shot better from the perimeter than Harris did for us).

What I've seen, in a nutshell, is no difference in the number of open looks, but a marked difference in the number of made baskets off those open looks. Dirk's the exception. That's what I think nobody saw coming.

[JES12]

Agreed.

What has been a little surprising was that in the past, it was 5 Mavs on the court playing as a team with everyone knowing there role. All players were involved.

Now it's the Kidd-Dirk show and the other plays seem disintrested a little.

I actually thought Kidd would help the others, but we have a collection of players that can create for themselves with a PG who wants to have the ball in his hand too much so he can do the creating (Harris was a better fit). When the ball comes out to them, they are hesitand and insists on looking for the extra pass when they should shoot the damn ball; or take it to the rack.

[DDansby123]

Now it's the Kidd-Dirk show and the other plays seem disintrested a little.

Disinterested is the perfect word for them on both ends of the floor, but you're absolutely right.

I actually thought Kidd would help the others, but we have a collection of players that can create for themselves with a PG who wants to have the ball in his hand too much so he can do the creating (Harris was a better fit). When the ball comes out to them, they are hesitand and insists on looking for the extra pass when they should shoot the damn ball; or take it to the rack.

I knew we were iso-oriented, but I didn't realize that it was more than just the fact that our PG wasn't a true PG. I mean, before the Kidd trade, I spoke with a lot of people who have followed Kidd his entire career and read a lot from national writers who have done the same. To a man, they each said Howard, JET, and Dirk should all get considerably better with Kidd. To date, only one has improved significantly, and the other two, IMO, have gotten worse. I just don't understand it. Despite being iso-oriented, each of those players has catch-and-shoot skills...or so I thought.

If Howard doesn't have catch-and-shoot skills, and we know he doesn't have penetrate-and-pass skills, what is he besides a one-on-one scorer? To me, that's the definition of a guy you bring off the bench to add a spark offensively, certainly not a #2 option.

And if Jason Terry's not good enough to be #2, which we know he isn't, and he's not quite the catch-and-shoot, consistent shooter he should be, what good is he?

Stack I don't even want to mess with.

All three of those guys ought to be gone next year if they don't turn around their play pretty soon.

[cavsfan_osiris]

I'm not sure what type of players Dallas can get for Terry and Stack, probably only bad contracts.

Terry's owed $30 million over the next three years and his skills are diminishing. Stack is owed $14 million over the next two seasons.

I would think Josh Howard still has value though and of course Kidd's expiring makes him valuable.

[JES12]

All good points, but I want to elaborate on this:

If Howard doesn't have catch-and-shoot skills, and we know he doesn't have penetrate-and-pass skills, what is he besides a one-on-one scorer? To me, that's the definition of a guy you bring off the bench to add a spark offensively, certainly not a #2 option.

The other day I wanted to post, but hesitated that I think Josh Howard would be GREAT in a Doug Christie role. A defensive specialist who can hit the shot when left wide open. Someone that nags the other team's best player.

I just don't see Howard as a valid #2 on offense. Maybe not even #3 if that means it is compromised on the defensive end. I'd much rather have Doug Christie (the Kings version) than the Howard we have today.

[JES12]

Terry's owed $40 million over the next four years and his skills are diminishing. Stack is owed $9 million over the next two seasons.

Fixed

[DDansby123]

The other day I wanted to post, but hesitated that I think Josh Howard would be GREAT in a Doug Christie role. A defensive specialist who can hit the shot when left wide open. Someone that nags the other team's best player.

I just don't see Howard as a valid #2 on offense. Maybe not even #3 if that means it is compromised on the defensive end. I'd much rather have Doug Christie (the Kings version) than the Howard we have today.

I see where you're going, and I'm with you. But the thing Doug Christie brought that Howard doesn't was: (1) ballhandling skills, (2) passing skills, and (3) shut-down defense on anyone in the backcourt. Unfortunately, there's not another Doug Christie out there, with the possible exception of Thabo Sefolosha (he's got the same skillset, anyway, and at 6'7").

Honestly, though, when Dirk was out of the lineup, Josh actually looked like a #1 option: 30+ PPG, 1.35 PPS, 7+ RPG, and 2.0 AST/TO ratio. I just don't understand the kid.

[FGump]

As for the Kidd trade, it's a disaster not because of the players we don't have anymore, but because of the guys who are still here: JET, Stack, and Josh. These three have been terrible since the Kidd trade...and I didn't see anyone on these boards predicting Josh's downfall. Kidd is a passer, and if he finds these guys open looks, and they miss, that's not his fault. Is it his fault that he's not a good scorer? I guess so.

Personally, I don't think Kidd's the problem with this team. He's been everything I expected. .

Agree 100%. I still think Kidd offered more potential to this team immediately and in the next year or two than Harris, but whether that's enough or not remains to be seen.

Harris wasn't the answer at all and is incredibly overrated by daydreaming Mavs fans who only see numbers. Diop wasn't going to play.

I think the coach is the biggest thing holding this team back.

[DDansby123]

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I think the coach is the biggest thing holding this team back.

I'm really coming around to that thinking.

To your point on Harris, and as I said pre-Kidd trade, we either had to trade Harris or build around him as the second option. I thought he could be the second option because his style is what the rules encourage now. More than Howard, he could've been that second option for us, as JES noted. Although, I did notice that in a fairly limited sample size in New Jersey, he too has become more of a jumpshooter (66% of his FGAs are jumpers now, versus 52% while here in Dallas). So maybe he would've just done a Josh Howard as the second option here. Who knows.

Regardless, since he clearly wasn't going to be any kind of focal point offensively, the trade was pretty much forced by Avery and whoever signed JET and Stack to their long-term deals. Even if we'd kept Devin, he likely would've been the first to go in the offseason anyway, possibly for Jason Kidd (again).

At least if we flame out now, though, we've got a better shot at rebuilding this offseason instead of waiting another year.

[Teddy KGB]

I won't admit that I was wrong until we lose this series. We're 0-2 down, we can claw back into this.

[FGump]

DD, the thing about Harris is, he's fool's gold because he's nothing more than a 2 guard in a frail PG frame. He can score for you, but you sacrifice a lot of size getting him in the lineup to be your scoring guard. Playing him at PG doesn't really provide true PG play, and using him at SG makes your team nastily undersized. He's a poor man's Ben Gordon.

Is he a decent player to have? Sure. The kind you build a team around? No chance.

[Sken]

^Again, I go back to re-signing the first two of that group as the moment this team headed south. Those signings, coupled with Avery Johnson and front office (I'm on board with getting rid of that entire group), forced us into making the Kidd trade. That's where I think the fault lies.

Except that the owner represents too much of the "front office brain trust" to just go get rid of. You can replace all you want, but if ownership vetoes or makes trades over the top of the GM/President BO/Coach it won't matter which Mortar Forker or group of racehorses we bring in.

[DDansby123]

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Except that the owner represents too much of the "front office brain trust" to just go get rid of. You can replace all you want, but if ownership vetoes or makes trades over the top of the GM/President BO/Coach it won't matter which Mortar Forker or group of racehorses we bring in.

Which deals were all Cuban? If you're talking the Kidd deal, don't think for a second that Avery wasn't 100% in agreement with that one.

[FGump]

^^Not only the Kidd trade, but I see Avery's stamp all over the Player Acquisition process since he became head coach. I'm not saying he was the only voice being considered, but I think he recommended certain players or types of players, and I believe he signed off on every move before they did them.

And I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that. Your coach has to have players that in his mind fit what he wants to do, and that fill holes in the way he sees necessary.

[DDansby123]

And I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that. Your coach has to have players that in his mind fit what he wants to do, and that fill holes in the way he sees necessary.

No, there's nothing at all wrong with it, as long as the coach's input is a net positive on the roster. I don't think it has been with respect to the decisions made on JET and Stack.

[ppp000]

there are obviously several factors leading to the Mavs decline since the trade

but to me, its obvious that the roster and "system" of the team calls for a SCORING first pg.

Yes yes, we didn't win with a scoring first pg, but Terry was/is too streaky, Devin wasn't a starter until this season.

I was in favor of the trade b/c I hated our stagnant ISO, what I didn't see was how ineffective all the players on this team are without the ball in their hands.
We lost our primary player who could drive to the basket, without that our offense has become depleted except in the few cases where the team does take advantage of Kidd's strengths (lots of assists, many fastbreak points, etc etc).

[DDansby123]

there are obviously several factors leading to the Mavs decline since the trade

but to me, its obvious that the roster and "system" of the team calls for a SCORING first pg.

Yes yes, we didn't win with a scoring first pg, but Terry was/is too streaky, Devin wasn't a starter until this season.

I was in favor of the trade b/c I hated our stagnant ISO, what I didn't see was how ineffective all the players on this team are without the ball in their hands.
We lost our primary player who could drive to the basket, without that our offense has become depleted except in the few cases where the team does take advantage of Kidd's strengths (lots of assists, many fastbreak points, etc etc).

I'm with you on the points above, and I simply view this as a case where the rest of the roster (outside of Dirk) has played worse than reasonably expected. Everyone familiar with Kidd (particularly Jersey fans) agreed that he'd help Josh and JET tremendously, but he hasn't (through no fault of his own, IMO). I think there are other factors that have entered the picture since the Kidd trade that weren't really caused by the deal (Josh Howard's decline for one).