ImageImageImage

RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST)

Moderators: Dirk, HMFFL, Mavrelous

deb
Senior
Posts: 549
And1: 455
Joined: May 27, 2014
Location: Slovenia

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#41 » by deb » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:48 am

Bob8 wrote:
arkuo wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Suns were shooting even worse and are normally much better shooting team.

The problem for Mavs is that KP is not good enough second option. Suns have 2 great players, who can close games + Ayton as very good C+ 1 of the best defenders in Bridges. They have class better team. 4/5 best players from both teams are from Suns.



To be fair, Devin Booker did his time by waiting for the right team to be built around him. The suns were perenial cellar dwellers before they got the chance to get CP3. Where as Luka fans want him to be surrounded by all stars and win a championship all on his first few years in the league, or he will what? Demand a trade? Pout his way into not playing? LMAO.

Simple answer to Luka is be patient and do his time. Wait for his chance to get his own "CP3" and lose some weight during this process. No 22 year old is winning an NBA championship on his first few seasons. Not even Luka Doncic for that matter.


What are you talking about? Who said anything about Luka demanding a trade? I'm just saying that Suns were one of the worst teams in Luka's draft and made much better moves since. What I'm afraid of is not Luka demanding the trade, but Mavs giving rich long term contracts to Brunson and DFS. This would been nail in the coffin. Mavs are overachieving with this roster, the worst possible scenario would be, if they somehow made to second round and then management understand that they're close with their roster. They're not.

Suns' roster is great example of balance. You have great Pg, great scorer, great defender, very good C and very good bench. Mavs have Luka, who is doing everything, big, who plays as SF and bunch of role players, who all look exactly the same.


Yeah but they did it by sucking for multiple years. They missed the playoffs for 10 straight years and Booker only made his first playoff appearance in his sixth season. Compare that to Doncic making it to the playoffs in his second.

As for roster composition, the Suns are not that much better than the mavs talent wise imo, it's just the pieces fit better. Suns bench isn't better than mavs bench.

As for DFS and Brunson, it's better to keep them imo. They will not return equal or better value if traded right now due to them being expirings. And if the mavs let them go for nothing, they'll still be over the cap next season and unable to sign marquee FAs. So it's best to sign them to competitive contracts and play them or trade them next season. It is what it is. This is the mavs team for the foreseeable future. The opportunity to build around Doncic while on a rookie contract is gone, so's the GM that failed to take it. Is Harrison the answer? Probably not, but he's who the mavs got.

It isn't that bad though, I'm more confident in this mavs team to beat anyone in the west this year then I was on them beating healthy Clippers last year. Don't get me wrong, all due respect to the suns, warriors, grizzlies and the jazz, they're great teams, but they just don't put the fear of god in me. I'm not saying the mavs WILL definitelly beat any of them, but I'm saying there's a realistic chance they could.
Mavrelous
Forum Mod - Mavericks
Forum Mod - Mavericks
Posts: 19,874
And1: 17,794
Joined: Aug 20, 2020

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#42 » by Mavrelous » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:03 pm

deb wrote:As for roster composition, the Suns are not that much better than the mavs talent wise imo, it's just the pieces fit better. Suns bench isn't better than mavs bench.


That's way off, Suns are much more talented than Mavs
Bridges>>DFS
CP3>>>>Brunson
Ayton>KP
Cam>THJ
Kleber=Jae Crowder

But yeah, Suns had 10 years of lottery, they did their mistakes, and lots of them, until they got it right, Luka sped up the process A LOT for DAL.
Defense wins draft lotteries!
Bob8
RealGM
Posts: 10,783
And1: 4,538
Joined: Feb 08, 2017

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#43 » by Bob8 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:12 pm

deb wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
arkuo wrote:

To be fair, Devin Booker did his time by waiting for the right team to be built around him. The suns were perenial cellar dwellers before they got the chance to get CP3. Where as Luka fans want him to be surrounded by all stars and win a championship all on his first few years in the league, or he will what? Demand a trade? Pout his way into not playing? LMAO.

Simple answer to Luka is be patient and do his time. Wait for his chance to get his own "CP3" and lose some weight during this process. No 22 year old is winning an NBA championship on his first few seasons. Not even Luka Doncic for that matter.


What are you talking about? Who said anything about Luka demanding a trade? I'm just saying that Suns were one of the worst teams in Luka's draft and made much better moves since. What I'm afraid of is not Luka demanding the trade, but Mavs giving rich long term contracts to Brunson and DFS. This would been nail in the coffin. Mavs are overachieving with this roster, the worst possible scenario would be, if they somehow made to second round and then management understand that they're close with their roster. They're not.

Suns' roster is great example of balance. You have great Pg, great scorer, great defender, very good C and very good bench. Mavs have Luka, who is doing everything, big, who plays as SF and bunch of role players, who all look exactly the same.


Yeah but they did it by sucking for multiple years. They missed the playoffs for 10 straight years and Booker only made his first playoff appearance in his sixth season. Compare that to Doncic making it to the playoffs in his second.

As for roster composition, the Suns are not that much better than the mavs talent wise imo, it's just the pieces fit better. Suns bench isn't better than mavs bench.

As for DFS and Brunson, it's better to keep them imo. They will not return equal or better value if traded right now due to them being expirings. And if the mavs let them go for nothing, they'll still be over the cap next season and unable to sign marquee FAs. So it's best to sign them to competitive contracts and play them or trade them next season. It is what it is. This is the mavs team for the foreseeable future. The opportunity to build around Doncic while on a rookie contract is gone, so's the GM that failed to take it. Is Harrison the answer? Probably not, but he's who the mavs got.

It isn't that bad though, I'm more confident in this mavs team to beat anyone in the west this year then I was on them beating healthy Clippers last year. Don't get me wrong, all due respect to the suns, warriors, grizzlies and the jazz, they're great teams, but they just don't put the fear of god in me. I'm not saying the mavs WILL definitelly beat any of them, but I'm saying there's a realistic chance they could.


Problem is that, if you give Brunson and DFS what they want, they will become untradable.

Suns roster is way better in quality and they fit much better together.

They were lottery team for long time, but the funny thing is that they have got all important pieces, by trading or signing free agents. Mavs could have build very similar team too.
deb
Senior
Posts: 549
And1: 455
Joined: May 27, 2014
Location: Slovenia

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#44 » by deb » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:10 pm

Bob8 wrote:
Spoiler:
deb wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
What are you talking about? Who said anything about Luka demanding a trade? I'm just saying that Suns were one of the worst teams in Luka's draft and made much better moves since. What I'm afraid of is not Luka demanding the trade, but Mavs giving rich long term contracts to Brunson and DFS. This would been nail in the coffin. Mavs are overachieving with this roster, the worst possible scenario would be, if they somehow made to second round and then management understand that they're close with their roster. They're not.

Suns' roster is great example of balance. You have great Pg, great scorer, great defender, very good C and very good bench. Mavs have Luka, who is doing everything, big, who plays as SF and bunch of role players, who all look exactly the same.


Yeah but they did it by sucking for multiple years. They missed the playoffs for 10 straight years and Booker only made his first playoff appearance in his sixth season. Compare that to Doncic making it to the playoffs in his second.

As for roster composition, the Suns are not that much better than the mavs talent wise imo, it's just the pieces fit better. Suns bench isn't better than mavs bench.

As for DFS and Brunson, it's better to keep them imo. They will not return equal or better value if traded right now due to them being expirings. And if the mavs let them go for nothing, they'll still be over the cap next season and unable to sign marquee FAs. So it's best to sign them to competitive contracts and play them or trade them next season. It is what it is. This is the mavs team for the foreseeable future. The opportunity to build around Doncic while on a rookie contract is gone, so's the GM that failed to take it. Is Harrison the answer? Probably not, but he's who the mavs got.

It isn't that bad though, I'm more confident in this mavs team to beat anyone in the west this year then I was on them beating healthy Clippers last year. Don't get me wrong, all due respect to the suns, warriors, grizzlies and the jazz, they're great teams, but they just don't put the fear of god in me. I'm not saying the mavs WILL definitelly beat any of them, but I'm saying there's a realistic chance they could.


Problem is that, if you give Brunson and DFS what they want, they will become untradable.

How does trading them now and getting worse this season help the mavs? They are not worth much as they are both UFAs after the season. You're not getting equal or better level players in return and you're not getting first rounders.
How does letting them go at the end of the season for nothing make the mavs a better team? They'll still be over the cap and unable to sign other team FAs, if they're not minimum contracts or some kind of exception contracts.
Logical conclusion is, you get the best possible outcome signing them to competitive contracts...


Suns roster is way better in quality and they fit much better together.

Is it better in quality really? In terms of individual quality Doncic's the best player on both teams, followed by Paul and Booker. 4th best player is KP, 5th Ayton, then I'd say Brunson and Bridges are a tie for the sixth place. The rest is a wash. Suns got both Cams, Javale, and Crowder. I don't see that better as DFS. Maxi, THJ, Bullock... They do fit better.

They were lottery team for long time, but the funny thing is that they have got all important pieces, by trading or signing free agents. Mavs could have build very similar team too.

Could have, I agree. They didn't. Let's try to think what could be done in the future, not what hasn't been done in the past...
Bob8
RealGM
Posts: 10,783
And1: 4,538
Joined: Feb 08, 2017

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#45 » by Bob8 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:32 pm

deb wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Spoiler:
deb wrote:
Yeah but they did it by sucking for multiple years. They missed the playoffs for 10 straight years and Booker only made his first playoff appearance in his sixth season. Compare that to Doncic making it to the playoffs in his second.

As for roster composition, the Suns are not that much better than the mavs talent wise imo, it's just the pieces fit better. Suns bench isn't better than mavs bench.

As for DFS and Brunson, it's better to keep them imo. They will not return equal or better value if traded right now due to them being expirings. And if the mavs let them go for nothing, they'll still be over the cap next season and unable to sign marquee FAs. So it's best to sign them to competitive contracts and play them or trade them next season. It is what it is. This is the mavs team for the foreseeable future. The opportunity to build around Doncic while on a rookie contract is gone, so's the GM that failed to take it. Is Harrison the answer? Probably not, but he's who the mavs got.

It isn't that bad though, I'm more confident in this mavs team to beat anyone in the west this year then I was on them beating healthy Clippers last year. Don't get me wrong, all due respect to the suns, warriors, grizzlies and the jazz, they're great teams, but they just don't put the fear of god in me. I'm not saying the mavs WILL definitelly beat any of them, but I'm saying there's a realistic chance they could.


Problem is that, if you give Brunson and DFS what they want, they will become untradable.

How does trading them now and getting worse this season help the mavs? They are not worth much as they are both UFAs after the season. You're not getting equal or better level players in return and you're not getting first rounders.
How does letting them go at the end of the season for nothing make the mavs a better team? They'll still be over the cap and unable to sign other team FAs, if they're not minimum contracts or some kind of exception contracts.
Logical conclusion is, you get the best possible outcome signing them to competitive contracts...


Suns roster is way better in quality and they fit much better together.

Is it better in quality really? In terms of individual quality Doncic's the best player on both teams, followed by Paul and Booker. 4th best player is KP, 5th Ayton, then I'd say Brunson and Bridges are a tie for the sixth place. The rest is a wash. Suns got both Cams, Javale, and Crowder. I don't see that better as DFS. Maxi, THJ, Bullock... They do fit better.

They were lottery team for long time, but the funny thing is that they have got all important pieces, by trading or signing free agents. Mavs could have build very similar team too.

Could have, I agree. They didn't. Let's try to think what could be done in the future, not what hasn't been done in the past...


What competive contracts means? Would you give Brunson 100 mio, 4 year contract? Wouldn't be better find some team, with roster problems and get something for Brunson and DFS?

Ayton is much better than KP and Bridges is much better than Brunson. Maybe the best defender in the league. Bridges would have been fantastic fit to Luka. Imho it's Luka, CP3, Booker, Ayton/Bridges and only then some Mavs players.
Mavrelous
Forum Mod - Mavericks
Forum Mod - Mavericks
Posts: 19,874
And1: 17,794
Joined: Aug 20, 2020

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#46 » by Mavrelous » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:35 pm

Brunson wants 80/4, he'll probably get 70/4, depending on how he finishes the season, he already came back to earth the last few games.
Defense wins draft lotteries!
deb
Senior
Posts: 549
And1: 455
Joined: May 27, 2014
Location: Slovenia

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#47 » by deb » Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:25 pm

Bob8 wrote:
Spoiler:
deb wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Problem is that, if you give Brunson and DFS what they want, they will become untradable.

How does trading them now and getting worse this season help the mavs? They are not worth much as they are both UFAs after the season. You're not getting equal or better level players in return and you're not getting first rounders.
How does letting them go at the end of the season for nothing make the mavs a better team? They'll still be over the cap and unable to sign other team FAs, if they're not minimum contracts or some kind of exception contracts.
Logical conclusion is, you get the best possible outcome signing them to competitive contracts...


Suns roster is way better in quality and they fit much better together.

Is it better in quality really? In terms of individual quality Doncic's the best player on both teams, followed by Paul and Booker. 4th best player is KP, 5th Ayton, then I'd say Brunson and Bridges are a tie for the sixth place. The rest is a wash. Suns got both Cams, Javale, and Crowder. I don't see that better as DFS. Maxi, THJ, Bullock... They do fit better.

They were lottery team for long time, but the funny thing is that they have got all important pieces, by trading or signing free agents. Mavs could have build very similar team too.

Could have, I agree. They didn't. Let's try to think what could be done in the future, not what hasn't been done in the past...


What competive contracts means? Would you give Brunson 100 mio, 4 year contract? Wouldn't be better find some team, with roster problems and get something for Brunson and DFS?

Ayton is much better than KP and Bridges is much better than Brunson. Maybe the best defender in the league. Bridges would have been fantastic fit to Luka. Imho it's Luka, CP3, Booker, Ayton/Bridges and only then some Mavs players.


1. I would give Brunson a contract that can be moved without attaching value to get rid of. 4/80 sure.
What would you be able to get for Brunson and DFS? They make what, 6 million combined. What you'd get back is a limited role player and maybe a couple of seconds. That means the mavs are a worse team for the remainder of this season. Then next year they try to retool - who takes up the second playmaker role? Mavs don't have the capspace, best case scenario is 36 years old Dragic, who hasn't played for a whole season, on a vet minimimum. Is that better than signing DFS and Brunson?

2. Switch KP and Ayton and I think the Suns are about as good as they are now and the mavs are probably worse due to worse spacing. Availability and age tip the balance towards Ayton, but individual talent is on KP's side imo.

Bridges is maybe the best 3 and D wing out there, but put him on a bad team and he's useless. Brunson however is probably capable of leading a team into the playoffs if surrounded with good role players. Again, I'd say Brunson is more talented, but Bridges is more useful to a contender...

Overall, I don't believe the suns are massively more talented, they just fit better together. The sum is greater than its parts...
User avatar
41Dirk41
Head Coach
Posts: 7,196
And1: 2,534
Joined: Mar 26, 2021
     

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#48 » by 41Dirk41 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:18 pm

KhalilS wrote:
deb wrote:As for roster composition, the Suns are not that much better than the mavs talent wise imo, it's just the pieces fit better. Suns bench isn't better than mavs bench.


That's way off, Suns are much more talented than Mavs
Bridges>>DFS
CP3>>>>Brunson
Ayton>KP
Cam>THJ
Kleber=Jae Crowder

But yeah, Suns had 10 years of lottery, they did their mistakes, and lots of them, until they got it right, Luka sped up the process A LOT for DAL.


Outside Luka , and maybe KP, noone of us players cracks in Suns rotation for more than 10minutes.

The suns talent is away from us.

It's not about time, it's about GM capacity. Suns after drafting Ayton maked all the right moves. Atlanta too.
Dallas after drafting Doncic maked all the wrong moves. And counting.
It's not about win a ring but compete, having a Luka Doncic and 0 winning change is awful.

Nelson and Cuban shame for sure. But Harrison seems not better...
User avatar
41Dirk41
Head Coach
Posts: 7,196
And1: 2,534
Joined: Mar 26, 2021
     

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#49 » by 41Dirk41 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:20 pm

KhalilS wrote:Brunson wants 80/4, he'll probably get 70/4, depending on how he finishes the season, he already came back to earth the last few games.


Toronto and Suns are solid team who play PO basketball and then you see Brunson limit.

Sell high him, soon as possible.
Brunson with a 80M contract is more untradable than THJ and maybe even Powell.
Bob8
RealGM
Posts: 10,783
And1: 4,538
Joined: Feb 08, 2017

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#50 » by Bob8 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:30 pm

deb wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Spoiler:
deb wrote:


What competive contracts means? Would you give Brunson 100 mio, 4 year contract? Wouldn't be better find some team, with roster problems and get something for Brunson and DFS?

Ayton is much better than KP and Bridges is much better than Brunson. Maybe the best defender in the league. Bridges would have been fantastic fit to Luka. Imho it's Luka, CP3, Booker, Ayton/Bridges and only then some Mavs players.


1. I would give Brunson a contract that can be moved without attaching value to get rid of. 4/80 sure.
What would you be able to get for Brunson and DFS? They make what, 6 million combined. What you'd get back is a limited role player and maybe a couple of seconds. That means the mavs are a worse team for the remainder of this season. Then next year they try to retool - who takes up the second playmaker role? Mavs don't have the capspace, best case scenario is 36 years old Dragic, who hasn't played for a whole season, on a vet minimimum. Is that better than signing DFS and Brunson?

2. Switch KP and Ayton and I think the Suns are about as good as they are now and the mavs are probably worse due to worse spacing. Availability and age tip the balance towards Ayton, but individual talent is on KP's side imo.

Bridges is maybe the best 3 and D wing out there, but put him on a bad team and he's useless. Brunson however is probably capable of leading a team into the playoffs if surrounded with good role players. Again, I'd say Brunson is more talented, but Bridges is more useful to a contender...

Overall, I don't believe the suns are massively more talented, they just fit better together. The sum is greater than its parts...


I'm sure you can make some package with Powell in it.

Luka and Brunson don't fit at all. Both average/bad defenders and both like the most playing Isos, with the big difference that Luka is big enough to see over defenders and make adequate passes out, Brunson is to small to be really elite and he doesn't like to take 3s, what makes his pairing with Luka even worse. Change Brunson and Bridges and you have dreaming pairing with Luka. I don't see nobody in Nba as better fit with Luka, except Kawhi. Ayton is one of best defenders on C position, great rebounder and can switch everything. His shots selection makes him far more efficient than KP and I'm sure he can shoot 3s with 30% if needed, like KP. He's not wanting to be primadona, which is another +.

Change KP/Brunson with Bridges/Ayton and Mavs are title contenders. Only thing they need is some average guard to run second team.
boogiezen
Senior
Posts: 659
And1: 564
Joined: Aug 27, 2020
 

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#51 » by boogiezen » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:04 am

Dallas beat Phoenix in 3 quarters and almost the entire 4th. But there was no gas left. And when the defense/pressure started rolling like a playoff basketball, Dallas role players MIA plus second best player (supposed to be).

Dallas' ceiling is the same. Another first round exit. It's laughable that they don't want to trade for Turner because they're thinking again that this team is good enough because of the defense. Very Mark Cuban mentality. Great that they're playing defense. But the team will not be taken seriously if it ranked 17th in offense and cannot be considered a title contender.
Maybe it's better not to be the best. Then you can lose and it's OK. - Searching for Bobby Fischer (1993)
Darren
RealGM
Posts: 14,106
And1: 915
Joined: Nov 06, 2003

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#52 » by Darren » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:06 am

I think the Mavs lose easily in a close game against Pheonix for roster reason.
1.The Mavs has below average rim protection while Pheonix has Ayton, CP and Booker.
2.The Mavs cannot put enough offense/defense on the floor at the same time. In a close game, the Mavs will have to gamble or doubt team Booker. You can't count on Doncic or Brunson to play great defense. So is KP already playing big minutes.
3.The Mavs does not have elite defender against Booker. DFS is above average but in closing moment, Booker always comes alive againtst DFS. But Nilikina are inconsistent and inexperienced especailly defending the paint. Bullock and Green has slow feet against Booker.
Darren
RealGM
Posts: 14,106
And1: 915
Joined: Nov 06, 2003

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#53 » by Darren » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:23 am

For a deep PO run, the Mavs need to trade Powell for an upgrade on Maxi's level, includinig rim protection, rebound, efficient scoring and perhaps hitting opened 3s. And they need Ntilikina and Green to grow up to be steady performers on both end. Especially, Ntilikina could potentially a missing piece against the likes of Booker and CP.

Is Marcus Morris or Nic Batum available?
Darren
RealGM
Posts: 14,106
And1: 915
Joined: Nov 06, 2003

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#54 » by Darren » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:25 am

Is Dwight Howard available in trade? Howard for Moses with a pick swap or 2nd round pick is fine.
User avatar
41Dirk41
Head Coach
Posts: 7,196
And1: 2,534
Joined: Mar 26, 2021
     

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#55 » by 41Dirk41 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:58 am

I'm agree with all of you, with the Luka-Brunson-THJ backcourt you can't win clutch game.Never.
Plus DFS is above average at high level.

Frank could be the answer but he is too rough.
Green is inadequate right now.
User avatar
SecondTake
Veteran
Posts: 2,671
And1: 1,493
Joined: Jun 03, 2017

Re: RS 21/22 - Mavs vs Suns (730PM EST) 

Post#56 » by SecondTake » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:41 pm

fuller4379 wrote:I still can’t believe the Rockets were dumb enough to trade CP3 and multiple draft picks for Westbrick. That destroyed their team.


To be fair the time it was a good trade, WB was still a much better player than CP3 until this season when he fell off.

Return to Dallas Mavericks