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Dallas Mavericks 2023/24 Trade thread

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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#41 » by Bob8 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 12:55 am

BeiBeau wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
BeiBeau wrote:
Even when Exum was in the league he was a significantly better defender than frank has ever been. And if his offense truly did improve in Europe then he could be a steal of the offseason. Depending on where his shot is he is either a little upgrade like you describe or he is a major upgrade.

Calling Seth Curry a 6’1” Bertans is just straight dumb. Seth Curry averaged double the points and is a top 5 3pt shooter in the league. Bertans is wildling inconsistent and despite being 9” taller is not a better defender but plays a more important defensive position.

I also do not understand where this “Jason Kidd hates rookies comes from” Jason Kidd despite his flaws has done an amazing job at young player development. It was Carlisle who was the worst development coach in the league. In one season with Kidd as coach Brunson went from unplayable in the playoffs to an All Star in the next playoffs. In 2 years as coach Green went from bust, to borderline rotation player, to borderline starter. And we all know Hardy was objectively our best or 2nd best player in many key games last season.


His advanced stats don't exactly show that. ;) They're disastrous. Btw. which key games have Mavs won last year? I remember only 1 key loss. :lol:


I have no idea which of the 3 players you’re talking about or what “advanced stats” you’re trying to use to discredit anyone.

I didn’t say they won any key games. I’m pretty sure the Mavs were the worst team in the league last year in clutch moments. But there were several where Hardy was either playing great or was the best of the bad. Memphis, Golden State, Utah, Portland.


Hardy had one of the worst advanced stats in Mavs. Mavs were pretty bad with him on the court. Sure he had few good games, but his style of play is too erratic. I'm not discrediting anyone, stats are what they are. You can look at them yourself, they can be interpreted, but they for sure show something. With addition of Kyrie his future doesn't look too bright in Mavs.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#42 » by BeiBeau » Wed Oct 4, 2023 1:23 am

Archx wrote:
BeiBeau wrote:I also do not understand where this “Jason Kidd hates rookies comes from” Jason Kidd despite his flaws has done an amazing job at young player development.


What exactly did Kidd do? He needed like 60% of the season to figure out Hardy should actually be playing NBA minutes instead of wasting his potential in GLeague. And even then, he often actually rather played Frank than Hardy.

Had no clue what to do with Green. Some games he played 15 mins then the next game he played 28 mins almost on repeat. It was actually Lowry who helped Green in the off season, they trained together entire summer. When Kyrie arrived, Kidd got completely lost and couldn't string together even one offensive set to help out role players. It was Doncic's elite playmaking that saved his ass on offense and Kyrie's efficiency. When neither played, Green strived and looked like a freaking monster.

Brunson credits Kidd for his developmnent so i'll give him that but Brunson was also up and coming talent and almost everyone saw that apart from Mavs FO.

I don't trust Kidd with talent development (yet), we'll see how OMax and Lively do. They are basically HUGE projects, specially OMax. If he can turn at least one of them into elite role players, it will be his biggest success.


You don’t judge a coaches success at player development based on whether it is an easy process or difficult process.

Your thought process is that Hardy was clearly pretty good at the end of last season, therefore he was clearly pretty good all season long so Kidd is at fault for not playing him. And that is just HARD incorrect, you could be right that Hardy could’ve played in November but that also could’ve killed his confidence and set him back.

Bad development coaches get nothing out of there players. (Carlisle)

Good development coaches get significant improvement out of their players.

Great development coaches maximize their young players.

Is Kidd truly getting the most improvement out of green and Hardy? Probably not but that is also impossible to tell in the moment.

What we do know is Kidd has brought Brunson, Green, and Hardy each up multiple tiers. Like is said. Brunson went from bench to all star. Josh went from unplayable to starter. Hardy went from G-league bust to borderline efficient NBA bench player. Jason Kidd is good at player development that much can’t be argued. It is not always easy but every young player he’s got so far has made major strides.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#43 » by BeiBeau » Wed Oct 4, 2023 1:33 am

Bob8 wrote:
BeiBeau wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
His advanced stats don't exactly show that. ;) They're disastrous. Btw. which key games have Mavs won last year? I remember only 1 key loss. :lol:


I have no idea which of the 3 players you’re talking about or what “advanced stats” you’re trying to use to discredit anyone.

I didn’t say they won any key games. I’m pretty sure the Mavs were the worst team in the league last year in clutch moments. But there were several where Hardy was either playing great or was the best of the bad. Memphis, Golden State, Utah, Portland.


Hardy had one of the worst advanced stats in Mavs. Mavs were pretty bad with him on the court. Sure he had few good games, but his style of play is too erratic. I'm not discrediting anyone, stats are what they are. You can look at them yourself, they can be interpreted, but they for sure show something. With addition of Kyrie his future doesn't look too bright in Mavs.


As a professional statistician I think you buying into Hardy’s stats is flawed more so then if you looked at the advanced stats for the other players on the team. My reason for that is, Hardy got most of his major playing time in games where Luka and/or Kyrie were out. I would make the same argument for a guy like McKinley Wright and Nilikina. While those two guys are clearly worse then Hardy they all 3 get playing time when Dallas’ best players don’t play. The parameters set for a Josh Green or Reggie Bullock are vary different then for Jaden Hardy and as much as advanced stats are fun they for sure do not account for everything.

Hardy is fine. He is a good young player. Advanced stats prioritize efficiency which is nice and all, Hardy even did a lot of work last year to be more efficient, they really don’t account for every variable.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#44 » by Bob8 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 1:42 am

BeiBeau wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
BeiBeau wrote:
I have no idea which of the 3 players you’re talking about or what “advanced stats” you’re trying to use to discredit anyone.

I didn’t say they won any key games. I’m pretty sure the Mavs were the worst team in the league last year in clutch moments. But there were several where Hardy was either playing great or was the best of the bad. Memphis, Golden State, Utah, Portland.


Hardy had one of the worst advanced stats in Mavs. Mavs were pretty bad with him on the court. Sure he had few good games, but his style of play is too erratic. I'm not discrediting anyone, stats are what they are. You can look at them yourself, they can be interpreted, but they for sure show something. With addition of Kyrie his future doesn't look too bright in Mavs.


As a professional statistician I think you buying into Hardy’s stats is flawed more so then if you looked at the advanced stats for the other players on the team. My reason for that is, Hardy got most of his major playing time in games where Luka and/or Kyrie were out. I would make the same argument for a guy like McKinley Wright and Nilikina. While those two guys are clearly worse then Hardy they all 3 get playing time when Dallas’ best players don’t play. The parameters set for a Josh Green or Reggie Bullock are vary different then for Jaden Hardy and as much as advanced stats are fun they for sure do not account for everything.

Hardy is fine. He is a good young player. Advanced stats prioritize efficiency which is nice and all, Hardy even did a lot of work last year to be more efficient, they really don’t account for every variable.


Sure, stats don't tell the whole story but they tell that Mavs are not winning with him on the court, for different reasons. Hardy' problems is that he's pretty bad in playmaking and not good defender. Mavs with Luka and Kyrie simply don't need his iso skills or better to say, they need different type of players to play with Luka and Kyrie. I really can't see a lineup with Luka, Kyrie and Hardy. And even if one seats, Exum looks better fit. Kyrie has basically killed need for player like Hardy, because he's light years better in everything Hardy does. He will get more playing time only, like last season, when Luka or Kyrie are out.

He's basically not good enough, doesn't have right skills, to play with Luka and Kyrie, and not good enough to be positive on the court without them. And we have negative advanced stats. Josh, Williams, or even THJ...might not be more talented players than Hardy, but they fit much better in.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#45 » by BeiBeau » Wed Oct 4, 2023 2:10 am

Bob8 wrote:
BeiBeau wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Hardy had one of the worst advanced stats in Mavs. Mavs were pretty bad with him on the court. Sure he had few good games, but his style of play is too erratic. I'm not discrediting anyone, stats are what they are. You can look at them yourself, they can be interpreted, but they for sure show something. With addition of Kyrie his future doesn't look too bright in Mavs.


As a professional statistician I think you buying into Hardy’s stats is flawed more so then if you looked at the advanced stats for the other players on the team. My reason for that is, Hardy got most of his major playing time in games where Luka and/or Kyrie were out. I would make the same argument for a guy like McKinley Wright and Nilikina. While those two guys are clearly worse then Hardy they all 3 get playing time when Dallas’ best players don’t play. The parameters set for a Josh Green or Reggie Bullock are vary different then for Jaden Hardy and as much as advanced stats are fun they for sure do not account for everything.

Hardy is fine. He is a good young player. Advanced stats prioritize efficiency which is nice and all, Hardy even did a lot of work last year to be more efficient, they really don’t account for every variable.


Sure, stats don't tell the whole story but they tell that Mavs are not winning with him on the court, for different reasons. Hardy' problems is that he's pretty bad in playmaking and not good defender. Mavs with Luka and Kyrie simply don't need his iso skills or better to say, they need different type of players to play with Luka and Kyrie. I really can't see a lineup with Luka, Kyrie and Hardy. And even if one seats, Exum looks better fit. Kyrie has basically killed need for player like Hardy, because he's light years better in everything Hardy does. He will get more playing time only, like last season, when Luka or Kyrie are out.

He's basically not good enough, doesn't have right skills, to play with Luka and Kyrie, and not good enough to be positive on the court without them. And we have negative advanced stats.


To be fair Dallas wasn’t winning with anyone last year. Especially with Hardy because he was Luka and Kyrie’s replacement in the line up.

All of that I can agree with. But Hardy is still a good young player. The problem for these young score 1st guards is if you’re not elite then you’re not going to get a ton of play. Hardy shouldn’t be worried about fitting with Kyrie and Luka right now. He should instead be worried about beating out THJ.

This year for Hardy he should be focused on improving this year as much as he can ever if that means playing in the G league. So that next offseason when THJ is expiring and easy to move for an upgrade. At that point Hardy is fighting for a 6th man role.

There would be a spot in the rotation if THJ was not eating 28 minutes on the bench.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#46 » by Bob8 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 6:13 am

BeiBeau wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
BeiBeau wrote:
As a professional statistician I think you buying into Hardy’s stats is flawed more so then if you looked at the advanced stats for the other players on the team. My reason for that is, Hardy got most of his major playing time in games where Luka and/or Kyrie were out. I would make the same argument for a guy like McKinley Wright and Nilikina. While those two guys are clearly worse then Hardy they all 3 get playing time when Dallas’ best players don’t play. The parameters set for a Josh Green or Reggie Bullock are vary different then for Jaden Hardy and as much as advanced stats are fun they for sure do not account for everything.

Hardy is fine. He is a good young player. Advanced stats prioritize efficiency which is nice and all, Hardy even did a lot of work last year to be more efficient, they really don’t account for every variable.


Sure, stats don't tell the whole story but they tell that Mavs are not winning with him on the court, for different reasons. Hardy' problems is that he's pretty bad in playmaking and not good defender. Mavs with Luka and Kyrie simply don't need his iso skills or better to say, they need different type of players to play with Luka and Kyrie. I really can't see a lineup with Luka, Kyrie and Hardy. And even if one seats, Exum looks better fit. Kyrie has basically killed need for player like Hardy, because he's light years better in everything Hardy does. He will get more playing time only, like last season, when Luka or Kyrie are out.

He's basically not good enough, doesn't have right skills, to play with Luka and Kyrie, and not good enough to be positive on the court without them. And we have negative advanced stats.


To be fair Dallas wasn’t winning with anyone last year. Especially with Hardy because he was Luka and Kyrie’s replacement in the line up.

All of that I can agree with. But Hardy is still a good young player. The problem for these young score 1st guards is if you’re not elite then you’re not going to get a ton of play. Hardy shouldn’t be worried about fitting with Kyrie and Luka right now. He should instead be worried about beating out THJ.

This year for Hardy he should be focused on improving this year as much as he can ever if that means playing in the G league. So that next offseason when THJ is expiring and easy to move for an upgrade. At that point Hardy is fighting for a 6th man role.

There would be a spot in the rotation if THJ was not eating 28 minutes on the bench.


On his position you have 2 new players this year. Curry and Exum. I personally like both more. Curry is better shooter and Exum better playmaker and defender. If Kidd gives Exum fair chance, it will be very difficult for Hardy. Because Exum is just a lot more complete player.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#47 » by 41Dirk41 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 6:32 am

I think Hardy is in a very hard spot this year, if he will find minutes means he maked a huge step... but the chances to be buried on the bench are high.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#48 » by Teffer10 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 7:40 am

41Dirk41 wrote:I think Hardy is in a very hard spot this year, if he will find minutes means he maked a huge step... but the chances to be buried on the bench are high.

That's why Hardy will most likely become a primary piece in a trade for an upgrade at Center or Forward.
It is pretty obvious he is the best expendable trading piece we have right now.

I see his ceiling as somewhere between Devonte Graham and JR Smith.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#49 » by Bob8 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 7:49 am

Teffer10 wrote:
41Dirk41 wrote:I think Hardy is in a very hard spot this year, if he will find minutes means he maked a huge step... but the chances to be buried on the bench are high.

That's why Hardy will most likely become a primary piece in a trade for an upgrade at Center or Forward.
It is pretty obvious he is the best expendable trading piece we have right now.

I see his ceiling as somewhere between Devonte Graham and JR Smith.


His trading value is very questionable. Everyone will much rather take Green from our hands.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#50 » by Archx » Wed Oct 4, 2023 9:56 am

BeiBeau wrote:
Archx wrote:
BeiBeau wrote:I also do not understand where this “Jason Kidd hates rookies comes from” Jason Kidd despite his flaws has done an amazing job at young player development.


What exactly did Kidd do? He needed like 60% of the season to figure out Hardy should actually be playing NBA minutes instead of wasting his potential in GLeague. And even then, he often actually rather played Frank than Hardy.

Had no clue what to do with Green. Some games he played 15 mins then the next game he played 28 mins almost on repeat. It was actually Lowry who helped Green in the off season, they trained together entire summer. When Kyrie arrived, Kidd got completely lost and couldn't string together even one offensive set to help out role players. It was Doncic's elite playmaking that saved his ass on offense and Kyrie's efficiency. When neither played, Green strived and looked like a freaking monster.

Brunson credits Kidd for his developmnent so i'll give him that but Brunson was also up and coming talent and almost everyone saw that apart from Mavs FO.

I don't trust Kidd with talent development (yet), we'll see how OMax and Lively do. They are basically HUGE projects, specially OMax. If he can turn at least one of them into elite role players, it will be his biggest success.


You don’t judge a coaches success at player development based on whether it is an easy process or difficult process.

Your thought process is that Hardy was clearly pretty good at the end of last season, therefore he was clearly pretty good all season long so Kidd is at fault for not playing him. And that is just HARD incorrect, you could be right that Hardy could’ve played in November but that also could’ve killed his confidence and set him back.

Bad development coaches get nothing out of there players. (Carlisle)

Good development coaches get significant improvement out of their players.

Great development coaches maximize their young players.

Is Kidd truly getting the most improvement out of green and Hardy? Probably not but that is also impossible to tell in the moment.

What we do know is Kidd has brought Brunson, Green, and Hardy each up multiple tiers. Like is said. Brunson went from bench to all star. Josh went from unplayable to starter. Hardy went from G-league bust to borderline efficient NBA bench player. Jason Kidd is good at player development that much can’t be argued. It is not always easy but every young player he’s got so far has made major strides.


Kidd never had a good record of developing young guys and still doesn't have. It was actually quite the opposite, his Bucks job was a pure disaster and i didn't hear anything positive when he was on the Nets either. He supposed to learn a thing or two when he was with the LAL but apart from one decent Mavs year, he's been nothing but a fail purely from coaching standpoint.

Hardy played in the GLeague at the start and that's fine, but he was more than ready to jump into the NBA and at least get Pinson's and Frank's minutes but didn't. Even when he finally got there, he still couldn't get minutes. Only when everyone saw what a disaster Frank was and Mavs bench started to get short, Hardy finally got a chance.
And i already told you about Green. I don't know how much you know about him or how many games you watched but Kidd didn't do a good job with him, Green was his own man who developed with his own people. Freaking Justin Holiday who just got signed mid season got a starting gig over him :lol:

Anyway... Kidd is a horrible coach. Maybe star players like him because he's kissing their ass but we know his talent for angering others. We'll see what happens with Lively and OMax but all talk 2 months ago about Lively needing a lot of minutes in GLeague and now suddenly he's suppose to be their main center? I mean, what the hell? Is Chandler a magician or again Kidd has no clue what to do with his squad? I guess we'll find out tomorrow.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#51 » by Bob8 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 10:38 am

Archx wrote:
BeiBeau wrote:
Archx wrote:
What exactly did Kidd do? He needed like 60% of the season to figure out Hardy should actually be playing NBA minutes instead of wasting his potential in GLeague. And even then, he often actually rather played Frank than Hardy.

Had no clue what to do with Green. Some games he played 15 mins then the next game he played 28 mins almost on repeat. It was actually Lowry who helped Green in the off season, they trained together entire summer. When Kyrie arrived, Kidd got completely lost and couldn't string together even one offensive set to help out role players. It was Doncic's elite playmaking that saved his ass on offense and Kyrie's efficiency. When neither played, Green strived and looked like a freaking monster.

Brunson credits Kidd for his developmnent so i'll give him that but Brunson was also up and coming talent and almost everyone saw that apart from Mavs FO.

I don't trust Kidd with talent development (yet), we'll see how OMax and Lively do. They are basically HUGE projects, specially OMax. If he can turn at least one of them into elite role players, it will be his biggest success.


You don’t judge a coaches success at player development based on whether it is an easy process or difficult process.

Your thought process is that Hardy was clearly pretty good at the end of last season, therefore he was clearly pretty good all season long so Kidd is at fault for not playing him. And that is just HARD incorrect, you could be right that Hardy could’ve played in November but that also could’ve killed his confidence and set him back.

Bad development coaches get nothing out of there players. (Carlisle)

Good development coaches get significant improvement out of their players.

Great development coaches maximize their young players.

Is Kidd truly getting the most improvement out of green and Hardy? Probably not but that is also impossible to tell in the moment.

What we do know is Kidd has brought Brunson, Green, and Hardy each up multiple tiers. Like is said. Brunson went from bench to all star. Josh went from unplayable to starter. Hardy went from G-league bust to borderline efficient NBA bench player. Jason Kidd is good at player development that much can’t be argued. It is not always easy but every young player he’s got so far has made major strides.


Anyway... Kidd is a horrible coach. Maybe star players like him because he's kissing their ass but we know his talent for angering others. We'll see what happens with Lively and OMax but all talk 2 months ago about Lively needing a lot of minutes in GLeague and now suddenly he's suppose to be their main center? I mean, what the hell? Is Chandler a magician or again Kidd has no clue what to do with his squad? I guess we'll find out tomorrow.


I guess they realised that with drafting Lively they basically committed themselves to this path, no matter how unrealistic it is.

The most telling will be game against Real, if Real's bigs destroy Mavs' bigs, things could get ugly very soon.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#52 » by Archx » Wed Oct 4, 2023 11:51 am

Bob8 wrote:I guess they realised that with drafting Lively they basically committed themselves to this path, no matter how unrealistic it is.

The most telling will be game against Real, if Real's bigs destroy Mavs' bigs, things could get ugly very soon.


Yeah :lol: I have the same feeling. In some interviews they were talking how Holmes is extra motivated to prove himself, etc.. But no mentioning of him here and even looking at their depth charts, he's listed only as a 3rd string big guy.
Obviously pre-season means experimenting with lineups but THJ is already pissed off at Kidd. I just hope this season won't be over before it even starts.

I can't wait to see Tavares vs Lively.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#53 » by Bob8 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 12:00 pm

Archx wrote:
Bob8 wrote:I guess they realised that with drafting Lively they basically committed themselves to this path, no matter how unrealistic it is.

The most telling will be game against Real, if Real's bigs destroy Mavs' bigs, things could get ugly very soon.


I can't wait to see Tavares vs Lively.


Tavares has some health problems, so I hope he will be ready. Tavares, if healthy, is more dominant in Fiba basketball than Gobert in the paint and even Poirier is probably too much for Mavs bigs too. I would rest Lively in that game, it won't be pretty.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#54 » by Mavrelous » Wed Oct 4, 2023 12:19 pm

Tavares will eat Lively, but NBA is not FIBA and defensive 3 seconds makes a massive difference, big Val destroyed team USA, but in the NBA he's barely positive player.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#55 » by Bob8 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 12:26 pm

Mavrelous wrote:Tavares will eat Lively, but NBA is not FIBA and defensive 3 seconds makes a massive difference, big Val destroyed team USA, but in the NBA he's barely positive player.


It's true of course, but Tavares and even Poirier are more ready to play in Nba than Lively too. And that's is a big problem. Lively couldn't get a roster spot in Euroleague and he should be a starter in Nba?
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#56 » by Mavrelous » Wed Oct 4, 2023 12:41 pm

Bob8 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:Tavares will eat Lively, but NBA is not FIBA and defensive 3 seconds makes a massive difference, big Val destroyed team USA, but in the NBA he's barely positive player.


It's true of course, but Tavares and even Poirier are more ready to play in Nba than Lively too. And that's is a big problem. Lively couldn't get a roster spot in Euroleague and he should be a starter in Nba?


Lively will have massive growing pains, and under normal circumstances shouldn't be starting, Lively has a big bust potential, since he's a late riser, but that's not how it works.
There was another team heavily rumored to take Lively, and you could tell by who they actually picked, they were caught with their pants down, it was the Pelicans, Lively is a better prospect than Tavares, Pelicans have a better inside presence than Tavares in Jonas, and they are looking to replace him because of mobility, Tavares OTOH, couldn't stick on NBA teams and was eventually cut, Hawks also would've picked Lively if they traded Capella.
Voightman was the best center in the WC IMO, and if Lively goes against him in FIBA rules, it will be a massacre, is he NBA material?
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#57 » by Bob8 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 1:02 pm

Mavrelous wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Mavrelous wrote:Tavares will eat Lively, but NBA is not FIBA and defensive 3 seconds makes a massive difference, big Val destroyed team USA, but in the NBA he's barely positive player.


It's true of course, but Tavares and even Poirier are more ready to play in Nba than Lively too. And that's is a big problem. Lively couldn't get a roster spot in Euroleague and he should be a starter in Nba?


Lively will have massive growing pains, and under normal circumstances shouldn't be starting, Lively has a big bust potential, since he's a late riser, but that's not how it works.
There was another team heavily rumored to take Lively, and you could tell by who they actually picked, they were caught with their pants down, it was the Pelicans, Lively is a better prospect than Tavares, Pelicans have a better inside presence than Tavares in Jonas, and they are looking to replace him because of mobility, Tavares OTOH, couldn't stick on NBA teams and was eventually cut, Hawks also would've picked Lively if they traded Capella.
Voightman was the best center in the WC IMO, and if Lively goes against him in FIBA rules, it will be a massacre, is he NBA material?


Tavares is different player than he was with Hawks. He improved tremendously in Real. But I agree his problem is mobility.
Problem with Lively is much bigger at the moment, he can't play basketball at all yet. It doesn't matter for this and next few seasons if he's better prospect than Tavares, he's worse than Tavares was with Hawks. They will just throw him under the train, if they really make him a starter. Lively is long term prospect, with pretty big bust potential, which becomes exponential, if they force him play too soon.

Voightman is not a C, he's 4. He's camping on the perimeter in Europe too. The best true C, besides Tavares was Milutinov, who was ill in the Final. Tavares, Milutinov, Poirier...would be all more useful than Lively in next few seasons. Even better would be Theis, but he's under contract. Going with Lively looks really suicidal.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#58 » by Mavrelous » Wed Oct 4, 2023 1:14 pm

Willey Cauley Stein looked half decent in 2020-2021 season, he is a worse player than Lively...
It's not ideal, I don't agree with it, but they had 2 options, Capella, bad trade, they were right not to pull it off, and Ayton, and looks to me they preferred the cap flexibility next year, I think they'll regret that decision, but it wasn't baseless, 3 max players with 3+ years on their deal meant they are done in ability to change the roster w/o trading one of them.
There's a concept in NBA team building that's call dual timeline plan, meaning you have both young building blocks next to proven all NBA vets, what GSW tried to do with Steph/Green/Klay next to Poole/Kuminga/Moody/Wiseman, Celtics had it with Kyrie/Hayward next to rookie Tatum/Brown, it failed in both cases for various reasons, to me, it looks like the Mavs are going the same path, and they think they have a better chance because Luka is 10 years younger than Steph and more predictable than Hayward and younger Kyrie.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#59 » by Bob8 » Wed Oct 4, 2023 1:21 pm

Mavrelous wrote:Willey Cauley Stein looked half decent in 2020-2021 season, he is a worse player than Lively...
It's not ideal, I don't agree with it, but they had 2 options, Capella, bad trade, they were right not to pull it off, and Ayton, and looks to me they preferred the cap flexibility next year, I think they'll regret that decision, but it wasn't baseless, 3 max players with 3+ years on their deal meant they are done in ability to change the roster w/o trading one of them.
There's a concept in NBA team building that's call dual timeline plan, meaning you have both young building blocks next to proven all NBA vets, what GSW tried to do with Steph/Green/Klay next to Poole/Kuminga/Moody/Wiseman, Celtics had it with Kyrie/Hayward next to rookie Tatum/Brown, it failed in both cases for various reasons, to me, it looks like the Mavs are going the same path, and they think they have a better chance because Luka is 10 years younger than Steph and more predictable than Hayward and younger Kyrie.


Then tell me, what is point of giving Irving 120 mio? He will be too old to help, when Lively could theoretically be ready. And do you really believe that Luka will wait hoping that Lively improves? Lively is a mistake, no one is waiting for him.

They had fantastic option with trading for Ayton and trading 12th pick for a wing and they decided for totally raw C. That might costed them Luka in the end.
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Re: Dallas Mavericks 2023 offseason thread 

Post#60 » by Mavrelous » Wed Oct 4, 2023 1:30 pm

Bob8 wrote:Then tell me, what is point if giving Irving 120 mio? He will be too old to help, when Lively could theoretically be ready. And do you really believe that Luka will sign extension hoping that Lively improves? Lively is a mistake, no one is waiting for him.


Luka/Kyrie with decent 3d guard that can handle the ball, is a replication of 2021/22 season, this was the winning formula around Luka with Luka/Brunson/Dinwiddie.
Luka is eligible for extension 2 years from now, what I assume Mavs FO is doing is gambling on a roster good enough for the PO this year, and a chance to be better in 2 year with Lively/OMax/Williams/Geen/Hardy, I fully realize this option is worse short term.
There are no magic fixes, the Mavs messed up last year, it was as clear as the sky, they had to pick their poison this year, they had options to choose from, not a choice to design from scratch what they wanted.
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