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Jalen Brunson discussion

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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#241 » by deb » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:36 pm

While we're on the subject of Wright, let's not forget the mavs could have had Dragic instead. He just went for 24 points, 6 rebs, 5 assists against the Pacers. Delon did what exactly against the Clips?
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#242 » by arkuo » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:10 am

deb wrote:While we're on the subject of Wright, let's not forget the mavs could have had Dragic instead. He just went for 24 points, 6 rebs, 5 assists against the Pacers. Delon did what exactly against the Clips?


Wright is the result of Cuban's hurt ego. Same with Dwight Powel (Rondo trade), and Wesley Matthews' $18M contact (Botched Deandre Jordan signing)l. Once you hurt Cuban's ego, he goes out with an "I dont care, I can afford" attitude and signs someone to soothe that wound.

Wright was plan D in Cuban's pursuit of Danny Green. And like a scorned lover, Cuban gets turned down twice. And this is why he becomes the butt of jokes. Like driving around town looking for Deandre Jordan a few years ago. Which turned out to be fake. :lol:

I'd be scared to think what Cuban does if Giannis decides to spurn him and signs with Pat Riley instead. He might just sign THJ to a 5 year max to prove a point. :lol:
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#243 » by Pointguard01 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:32 pm

Mr B wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:
Pointguard01 wrote:
- Yogi was (and still is) clearly a 3rd string PG
- Devin Harris (35) and JJ Barea (33) were too old to be considered part of a rebuild
- It’s obvious now DSJ was not what Dallas wanted so I’m sure they knew he would have been moved sooner than later.
- And funny how you are calling Luka a PG when here’s the most common players he was compared to: James Harden, Jumbo Manu Ginobili, Tyreke Evans, Toni Kukoc, Hedo Turkoglu.

So, 3 of the 4 PGs/players weren’t even going to be in a 9-man rotation 2-years later (Harris is out of the legare, Yogi can barley get mins in SAC, Barea is a locker room guy). Even if you forgo my BPA strategy, those players should never have influenced your decision.

And you’re missing the point. When you draft for need or for a specialist instead of BPA, you might end up with a player that will never make it (hence, the two players I mentioned that most of this board wanted. Frazier and Thomas ‘fit a need’ or were ‘3&D players’. It’s easy to just say, “what if we took [insert the player that turned out being good]”. But, what if we took the player that was out of the league in 3-yrs.

This was a good value pick.


I agree with heez. In the 2nd round, you dont draft bpa, you draft for need. And every mock i saw had trent and robinson going ahead of brunson, so no, we didnt even draft bpa

That is a legit argument. Was Brunson even the BPA? Doesn’t look like it at the moment. It’s absolutely fine to be upset about that. I completely disagree that you don’t take beat player available. You always take best player available. Now they should have taken Trent or Robinson because they were the BPA at the time instead of Brunson. When you pick for need, especially in the second round you might as well be throwing the pick away because the player likely will not even make your roster. Never take the lesser player just because he fits a need.


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If the question is: would you rather have Robinson or Trent now...then that’s a different question. But, it feels like people are using hindsight to ignore things and put their opinion (which is easy after 2-yrs of watching them play) ahead of the truth.

But, yes, pretty much every board had Brunson ahead of these guys people are mentioning. And again, there were WORSE guys (see previous posts) who actually won’t get a 2nd contract that we’re unanimously higher. So, it’s more likely Dallas has Kyrie Thomas or Melvin Frazier than Trent or Robinson.

He would be lucky to still be in the league in 3 years let alone on the of the Mavs. He's an undersized PG with an average shot. At least with Barea, his 3pt shot kept defenses honest, and his quickness got him to rim. Brunson doesn't have that. All he has is people saying "He's a winner" because he won in college. That doesn't mean you are good player. He's a career backup. At this point, Trey Burke has replaced him.


Almost certainly he would be getting minutes IN THE PLAYOFFS off the bench for Philly, Boston, Lakers, and Utah. But you think he’ll be out of the league in 3-yrs? When he’s the age of 23 rn? Jesus.
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#244 » by daoneandonly » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:01 pm

I still think there were better options, even then, not really hindsight. Carlisle does wonders with PG's, Yogi looked like a backup here vs what he's doing in Sac. Barea was bought out in Minny.

This team time in and time out has had obsessions with guys 6'3'' and shorter, that's the problem. We need bigger wings.
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#245 » by Mr B » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:30 pm

Pointguard01 wrote:
Mr B wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:
I agree with heez. In the 2nd round, you dont draft bpa, you draft for need. And every mock i saw had trent and robinson going ahead of brunson, so no, we didnt even draft bpa

That is a legit argument. Was Brunson even the BPA? Doesn’t look like it at the moment. It’s absolutely fine to be upset about that. I completely disagree that you don’t take beat player available. You always take best player available. Now they should have taken Trent or Robinson because they were the BPA at the time instead of Brunson. When you pick for need, especially in the second round you might as well be throwing the pick away because the player likely will not even make your roster. Never take the lesser player just because he fits a need.


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If the question is: would you rather have Robinson or Trent now...then that’s a different question. But, it feels like people are using hindsight to ignore things and put their opinion (which is easy after 2-yrs of watching them play) ahead of the truth.

But, yes, pretty much every board had Brunson ahead of these guys people are mentioning. And again, there were WORSE guys (see previous posts) who actually won’t get a 2nd contract that we’re unanimously higher. So, it’s more likely Dallas has Kyrie Thomas or Melvin Frazier than Trent or Robinson.

He would be lucky to still be in the league in 3 years let alone on the of the Mavs. He's an undersized PG with an average shot. At least with Barea, his 3pt shot kept defenses honest, and his quickness got him to rim. Brunson doesn't have that. All he has is people saying "He's a winner" because he won in college. That doesn't mean you are good player. He's a career backup. At this point, Trey Burke has replaced him.


Almost certainly he would be getting minutes IN THE PLAYOFFS off the bench for Philly, Boston, Lakers, and Utah. But you think he’ll be out of the league in 3-yrs? When he’s the age of 23 rn? Jesus.

Personally I’m of the belief that if you find a contributing player in the 2nd round it’s a win. Brunson was rated higher than either Trent or Robinson. Carlisle likes to use multiple ball handlers on the court at the same time. Trent and Robinson do not fit that mold. I think was people are also forgetting is that the Mavs did not expect to be this good this fast. They are building for the future as much as for the present. JJ can no longer player play heavy minutes for long stretches of games. Wright wasn’t even on the team when they drafted Brunson so they actually did need a PG when they drafted Brunson. When you have a National Player of the Year fall to you in the 2nd round and he plays a position of need, it makes sense to draft him.


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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#246 » by Mr B » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:33 pm

daoneandonly wrote:I still think there were better options, even then, not really hindsight. Carlisle does wonders with PG's, Yogi looked like a backup here vs what he's doing in Sac. Barea was bought out in Minny.

This team time in and time out has had obsessions with guys 6'3'' and shorter, that's the problem. We need bigger wings.

Barea was here before Minny. He was groomed by Carlisle and got a big contract from Minny after the 2011 Championship season. Carlisle has doing wonders coaching guards his entire career. Look up what Reggie Miller says Carlisle did for his career while he was an assistant with the Pacers under Bird.


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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#247 » by daoneandonly » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:53 pm

Mr B wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:I still think there were better options, even then, not really hindsight. Carlisle does wonders with PG's, Yogi looked like a backup here vs what he's doing in Sac. Barea was bought out in Minny.

This team time in and time out has had obsessions with guys 6'3'' and shorter, that's the problem. We need bigger wings.

Barea was here before Minny. He was groomed by Carlisle and got a big contract from Minny after the 2011 Championship season. Carlisle has doing wonders coaching guards his entire career. Look up what Reggie Miller says Carlisle did for his career while he was an assistant with the Pacers under Bird.


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That's what I'm saying, look at Monta and even mayo as well. So if RC can do that, why not give him guards with more size and can play defense?
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#248 » by Heezzi » Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:23 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
Mr B wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:I still think there were better options, even then, not really hindsight. Carlisle does wonders with PG's, Yogi looked like a backup here vs what he's doing in Sac. Barea was bought out in Minny.

This team time in and time out has had obsessions with guys 6'3'' and shorter, that's the problem. We need bigger wings.

Barea was here before Minny. He was groomed by Carlisle and got a big contract from Minny after the 2011 Championship season. Carlisle has doing wonders coaching guards his entire career. Look up what Reggie Miller says Carlisle did for his career while he was an assistant with the Pacers under Bird.


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That's what I'm saying, look at Monta and even mayo as well. So if RC can do that, why not give him guards with more size and can play defense?

We drafted Shake Milton and traded him. I'd rather have Shake than Brunson. If we kept him, there would've been no need to sign Wright.

The shorter you are in the NBA, the better you better be at something if you want to stay in. Drafting the Brunsons the Larkins need to stop.
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#249 » by Pointguard01 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:06 pm

daoneandonly wrote:I still think there were better options, even then, not really hindsight. Carlisle does wonders with PG's, Yogi looked like a backup here vs what he's doing in Sac. Barea was bought out in Minny.

This team time in and time out has had obsessions with guys 6'3'' and shorter, that's the problem. We need bigger wings.


Do you realize some of the “better options” with NO HINDSIGHT would be the Kyrie Thomas’ and Melvin Frazier’s of the world?
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#250 » by Heezzi » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:49 pm

Pointguard01 wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:I still think there were better options, even then, not really hindsight. Carlisle does wonders with PG's, Yogi looked like a backup here vs what he's doing in Sac. Barea was bought out in Minny.

This team time in and time out has had obsessions with guys 6'3'' and shorter, that's the problem. We need bigger wings.


Do you realize some of the “better options” with NO HINDSIGHT would be the Kyrie Thomas’ and Melvin Frazier’s of the world?


We drafted 3 PGs. We didn't need to draft that many.
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#251 » by Pointguard01 » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:58 pm

Heezzi wrote:
Pointguard01 wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:I still think there were better options, even then, not really hindsight. Carlisle does wonders with PG's, Yogi looked like a backup here vs what he's doing in Sac. Barea was bought out in Minny.

This team time in and time out has had obsessions with guys 6'3'' and shorter, that's the problem. We need bigger wings.


Do you realize some of the “better options” with NO HINDSIGHT would be the Kyrie Thomas’ and Melvin Frazier’s of the world?


We drafted 3 PGs. We didn't need to draft that many.


Who? Please name them.

And before you do....reminder about using Hindsight. Luka’s comps were James Harden, Tyreke Evans, Hedo Turkaglu, Larry Bird, etc. Every single one of these guys are SG/SFs, not one person in 2018 was saying Luka was your PG like we know today.

All reports about DSJ say Carlisle knew he wasn’t long for this team. So, he was irrelevant.

It’s besides the point but you’re still not projecting what reality was in the summer of 2018.
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#252 » by Heezzi » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:24 pm

Pointguard01 wrote:
Heezzi wrote:
Pointguard01 wrote:
Do you realize some of the “better options” with NO HINDSIGHT would be the Kyrie Thomas’ and Melvin Frazier’s of the world?


We drafted 3 PGs. We didn't need to draft that many.


Who? Please name them.

And before you do....reminder about using Hindsight. Luka’s comps were James Harden, Tyreke Evans, Hedo Turkaglu, Larry Bird, etc. Every single one of these guys are SG/SFs, not one person in 2018 was saying Luka was your PG like we know today.

All reports about DSJ say Carlisle knew he wasn’t long for this team. So, he was irrelevant.

It’s besides the point but you’re still not projecting what reality was in the summer of 2018.



Luka, Brunson, Shake Milton.

You keep comparing Luka to Harden:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17644562/james-harden-becomes-full-point-guard-houston-rockets

You said DSJ wasn't going to be there because they drafted Luka. why would they replace a PG with a SG?

People knew about his ball handing and passing ability before he was drafted. They knew he was a point guard.

The Mavs drafted three PGs.
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#253 » by fuller4379 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:19 am

I look at the 2018 draft and don't see that much talent drafted behind Brunson. He is ranked number 11 in the draft in Win Shares. He is a steal in the second round. You can argue Mitchell Robinson by using hindsight, but Bruson was a good pick in the second round. Also, does Robinson even fit in the Mavs system? They need outside shooters and Robinson can't do that.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2018.html
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#254 » by daoneandonly » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:45 am

Pointguard01 wrote:
Heezzi wrote:
Pointguard01 wrote:
Do you realize some of the “better options” with NO HINDSIGHT would be the Kyrie Thomas’ and Melvin Frazier’s of the world?


We drafted 3 PGs. We didn't need to draft that many.


Who? Please name them.

And before you do....reminder about using Hindsight. Luka’s comps were James Harden, Tyreke Evans, Hedo Turkaglu, Larry Bird, etc. Every single one of these guys are SG/SFs, not one person in 2018 was saying Luka was your PG like we know today.

All reports about DSJ say Carlisle knew he wasn’t long for this team. So, he was irrelevant.

It’s besides the point but you’re still not projecting what reality was in the summer of 2018.


Like I mentioned, I trust Carlisle to turn those guys into decent offensive players. If they come with decent D, then that Trump's Brunson
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#255 » by Pointguard01 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:33 am

Heezzi wrote:
Pointguard01 wrote:
Heezzi wrote:
We drafted 3 PGs. We didn't need to draft that many.


Who? Please name them.

And before you do....reminder about using Hindsight. Luka’s comps were James Harden, Tyreke Evans, Hedo Turkaglu, Larry Bird, etc. Every single one of these guys are SG/SFs, not one person in 2018 was saying Luka was your PG like we know today.

All reports about DSJ say Carlisle knew he wasn’t long for this team. So, he was irrelevant.

It’s besides the point but you’re still not projecting what reality was in the summer of 2018.



Luka, Brunson, Shake Milton.

You keep comparing Luka to Harden:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17644562/james-harden-becomes-full-point-guard-houston-rockets

You said DSJ wasn't going to be there because they drafted Luka. why would they replace a PG with a SG?

People knew about his ball handing and passing ability before he was drafted. They knew he was a point guard.

The Mavs drafted three PGs.


- Shake was essentially drafted for/by Philly; that’s not fair. You’re reaching.
- Yes, Harden is one of many comps for Luka, but the rest of the comps could never be lead guards. And Harden has played with all kind of guards next to him: true PGs like CP3, Score-first PGs like Russ, shorter SGs like Eric Gordon, 3&D PGs like Beverley). Even if you KNEW Luka could be a lead-guard Harden-type (hint: no one did), that’s not a real reason.

Again, the bigger point is: you worry about getting a player in round 2 (ie BPA) and figure out fit later (or move the asset/player for someone that does).



@daoneandonly — that’s an interesting point. I don’t hate that concept but it’s risky.
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Re: Jalen Brunson discussion 

Post#256 » by Mr B » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:04 am

Heezzi wrote:
Pointguard01 wrote:
Heezzi wrote:
We drafted 3 PGs. We didn't need to draft that many.


Who? Please name them.

And before you do....reminder about using Hindsight. Luka’s comps were James Harden, Tyreke Evans, Hedo Turkaglu, Larry Bird, etc. Every single one of these guys are SG/SFs, not one person in 2018 was saying Luka was your PG like we know today.

All reports about DSJ say Carlisle knew he wasn’t long for this team. So, he was irrelevant.

It’s besides the point but you’re still not projecting what reality was in the summer of 2018.



Luka, Brunson, Shake Milton.

You keep comparing Luka to Harden:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17644562/james-harden-becomes-full-point-guard-houston-rockets

You said DSJ wasn't going to be there because they drafted Luka. why would they replace a PG with a SG?

People knew about his ball handing and passing ability before he was drafted. They knew he was a point guard.

The Mavs drafted three PGs.

They drafted Shake Milton with the intention of trading him. They then drafted two bigs (with the picks they got for Milton) who fit a need. They should have held on to the 3rd PG instead of trading him for two players that fit a need.


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