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Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1)

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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#761 » by JJP » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:19 pm

arkuo wrote:Losing Curry in a trade would essentially mean THJ is the only guy left shooting over 40% in the team. That means Dallas has to sign THJ back in 2021 or go out to find another player who can shoot over 40%. To support the trade idea, I would probably do Delon Wright + Jalen Brunson + 31 for Richardson. Then we just draft a PG at #18 or sign Trey Burke.


Wright and Brunson? That's just a bit one-sided. We send them 2 players that have only one position - PG. ??? Neither of them are starters. Neither has a great perimeter game (that's what they need). Philly gets nothing out of this that I can see.

Forget the 3-point percentage for a moment. Richardson averages more points per game than Curry. Does it matter how he gets them? Richardson is a career 36% 3-point shooter - which will certainly spread the floor. It's not like opposing teams can lay off of him. He is a better defender, better in assists, better rebounder, and more versatile. So I'm not sure how Richardson and Curry could cancel each other out.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#762 » by arkuo » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:28 pm

JJP wrote:
Forget the 3-point percentage for a moment. Richardson averages more points per game than Curry. Does it matter how he gets them? Richardson is a career 36% 3-point shooter - which will certainly spread the floor. He is a better defender, better in assists, better rebounder, and more versatile. So I'm not sure how they could cancel each other out.



I agree. I like Richardson. He and Luka share the same agent. That works for those two. But if there is a way that we can get J-Rich, without giving up Curry?

How about Richardson + Thybulle for Wright + DFS + Brunson?

That way all Mavs starters average at least 10ppg. Curry + THJ + RIchardson + Kleber + KP are all threats from 3 point range and all average more than 10ppg.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#763 » by JJP » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:49 pm

arkuo wrote:
JJP wrote:
Forget the 3-point percentage for a moment. Richardson averages more points per game than Curry. Does it matter how he gets them? Richardson is a career 36% 3-point shooter - which will certainly spread the floor. He is a better defender, better in assists, better rebounder, and more versatile. So I'm not sure how they could cancel each other out.



I agree. I like Richardson. He and Luka share the same agent. That works for those two. But if there is a way that we can get J-Rich, without giving up Curry?

How about Richardson + Thybulle for Wright + DFS + Brunson?

That way all Mavs starters average at least 10ppg. Curry + THJ + RIchardson + Kleber + KP are all threats from 3 point range and all average more than 10ppg.


Here's the thing though. Philadelphia is looking for offensive perimeter skills - G's or SFs. They might like Brunson in a package (he was a fan favorite at Villanova in the Philly area) but I don't see Wright being included in any package to Philly. DFS is really not the player they are looking for either. Someone like Curry, however, is exactly what they are looking for - and the Richardson-Curry salaries are close. From Philly's standpoint, if you can't upgrade your perimeter offense with a Richardson trade, then why bother trading Richardson at all?
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#764 » by deb » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:10 pm

Yeah, arkuo keeps proposing deals in which the mavs exchange pieces that don't work for them for other team's useful players. Doesn't work like that. I'm not even really sure 76ers'd be interested in Curry for Richardson. Richardson is pretty good and at the least they could use him as a sweetener to get rid of Horford/Harris.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#765 » by DBoys » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:54 am

Why would the Mavs want WORSE shooters spacing the floor around Luka? That would make no sense.

In fact, the concern about Wright is that he isn't a good shooter and needs to be replaced with a better shooter. .

But he's a better shooter than Richardson.

And the defensive rating comparison, using B-Ref's def rating, is almost identical. Also, Wright tallies more rebounds, assists, steals, and fewer turnovers per game. Wright's contract is LESS expensive.

I can't imagine the Mavs would have any interest, if they do decide to move on from Wright.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#766 » by JJP » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:09 am

DBoys wrote:Why would the Mavs want WORSE shooters spacing the floor around Luka? That would make no sense.

In fact, the concern about Wright is that he isn't a good shooter and needs to be replaced with a better shooter. .

But he's a better shooter than Richardson.

And the defensive rating comparison, using B-Ref's def rating, is almost identical. Also, Wright tallies more rebounds, assists, steals, and fewer turnovers per game. Wright's contract is LESS expensive.

I can't imagine the Mavs would have any interest, if they do decide to move on from Wright.


I'm not sure we were actually talking about Wright for Richardson. Phillie definitely wouldn't do that.

Richardson is a more complete player for his position than Wright is at his. Richardson is a far more aggressive player than Wright. Wright's problem is that he's timid, and he hasn't shown much skill at playmaking. The only reason Wright has a better 3-point % is because he shoots so few of them. He averages only 1.7 a game. Richardson averages over 6 a game when he was in Miami. Richardson averages 30 minutes per game, and Wright averages just over 20 MPG. Richardson is more versatile. There's less reason to take him out. In fivethirtyeight's defensive RAPTOR rating, Josh Richardson is at 82 out of 250 players. Wright is at 102.

They don't play the same position, so there's no direct comparison. The Mavs want a new playmaker, preferably one to play with Luca. Wright isn't that guy at all. They need to trade him. They also need a wing somewhat like Richardson. He's not absolutely ideal, but he would be an upgrade in the rotation (likely taking Jackson's place) - far more important than Wright who hardly saw the court during the playoffs.

This would never be a trade Philly would do unless it was with a package that involved Curry and some other Philly player.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#767 » by DBoys » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:36 am

"Phillie definitely wouldn't do that."

I will say again, while you deride Wright, there's nothing to indicate JR would be all that great in a Mav uni.

Yes, JR plays more minutes. But in fewer minutes, Wright is a better rebounder, a better passer, more steals, less turnovers - and Wright's advantage is even bigger if you look at a per-minute comparison. Wright is a very efficient player. Yes he needs to shoot more, but not convinced that means a volume bricker like JR would be preferable as a shooter, and Wright is certainly a MUCH bigger contributor in other areas. The idea that JR is a much better defender is NOT supported by the numbers - fewer steals, way more fouls, about the same def rating.

I think part of Philly's problem is a player like JR, who gets acclaim, but he's more hype than bang. And if I'm the Mavs, getting him really wouldn't take you where you want to go at all. Meh.

Giving up Curry, a player who can shoot with the best, for JR -- to me, that's quite a one-sided trade, but the team getting the steal would be Philly. Both Philly and Dallas need BETTER shooters, and Curry helps solve that need while JR makes the need bigger. Hard pass.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#768 » by JJP » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:39 am

DBoys wrote:"Phillie definitely wouldn't do that."

I will say again, while you deride Wright, there's nothing to indicate JR would be all that great in a Mav uni.

Yes, JR plays more minutes. But in fewer minutes, Wright is a better rebounder, a better passer, more steals, less turnovers - and Wright's advantage is even bigger if you look at a per-minute comparison. Wright is a very efficient player. Yes he needs to shoot more, but not convinced that means a volume bricker like JR would be preferable as a shooter, and Wright is certainly a MUCH bigger contributor in other areas. The idea that JR is a much better defender is NOT supported by the numbers - fewer steals, way more fouls, about the same def rating.

I think part of Philly's problem is a player like JR, who gets acclaim, but he's more hype than bang. And if I'm the Mavs, getting him really wouldn't take you where you want to go at all. Meh.

Giving up Curry, a player who can shoot with the best, for JR -- to me, that's quite a one-sided trade, but the team getting the steal would be Philly. Both Philly and Dallas need BETTER shooters, and Curry helps solve that need while JR makes the need bigger. Hard pass.


Well, I'm amazed that you will defend keeping a player who was DNP in our last playoff game for one that will likely play 30 minutes per game. That makes no sense to me. Carlisle has lost faith in him, but he apparently still has a fan base.

I think you would be comparing the wrong set of players anyway. Wright has to leave... and so does Justin Jackson. Richardson is a ton better than Jackson and that's the spot in the lineup that needs upgrading. You're not trading to replace Wright with Richardson. You're trading because Richardson needs the minutes of rotation players at the wing position. The Mavs will be replacing Wright with another PG - just not in the Philly trade.

If Curry leaves, then you eventually have to find a PG or SG with 3-point skills to replace him. That's a different trade. Or maybe you acquire Facundo Campazzo in free agency to offset Curry's absence. But you can't see one trade as a finished product. The mission is simply to re-tool the roster before next season begins.

Curry's skill set is terrific, but it's one dimensional as a jump shooter. He's injured quite a bit, and he gets exposed defensively so he can't get the minutes of a starter. So there's reason to at least examine what it means to trade players. I don't particularly like a one-for-one in this trade - I'd rather see other players involved like Thybulle and Brunson. But I at least understand that Richardson's skill set my be warranted if the right package was available.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#769 » by DBoys » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:39 pm

Besides the fact that JR is imo being wildly overrated in these discussions, I have a bigger problem with the idea -

What the Mavs need is a 3-and-D secondary playmaker, who can play alongside Luke. THAT would be the goal. And JR ris not that guy at all. He's a fairly decent defender, but he's not much of a shooter and he's not much of a playmaker. So trade for him is not really a move that solves anything at all.

As for Wright, yes he had a couple of playoff DNP's. That was directly tied to Luka's minutes - the more Luka played, he was eating into minutes that DW would have been on the floor instead. That's because DW had not found a fit when playing alongside Luka, and if DW can't play WITH Luka, then his value in Dallas is capped at a low level. But that doesn't mean he's a bad player, which seems to be where you are trying to take it. It just means he's a bad fit on a team like the Mavs.

And anyhow, DW's lack of fit does NOT make getting JR a good idea. It's not like those are the only two players in the NBA.

"JR is better than Jackson" is a meaningless note. Jackson had no significant role, other than the Mavs trying to see if they could bring him along. He played about 1000 minutes. Jackson and Richardson don't play the same position, either. Jackson is a 6-7 F that they have tried to use as a 4 at times. JR is a SG, which in practice has been the same position Delon has been playing. And THJ.

I would certainly be glad to see a better fit, or a better player, to replace those guys. But that's NOT what you seem to be proposing. Richardson isn't much of a shooter, and that's a crucial element to play alongside Luka.

A trade of Curry (who plays more than you seem to realize) for JR makes no sense. You still would have Wright and Jackson on the roster (guys you say you don't want), you don't have Curry (a player you see the need for), and all you get for your trouble is a player who is wildly inefficient to shoot feeds from Luka with a low conversion rate. I don't see how that gains anything at all - you've just added another player with the same limit as DW< which is that he's not a knockdown shooter when you space the floor. He will gladly shoot more shots and miss them for you that's true, but not sure how that's a good thing.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#770 » by JJP » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:18 pm

I'm guessing you do not fully understand what's being said. Perhaps it's me.

The object of that trade is one move in a series. Let's simplify it. You have lost Curry. You have received Richardson. Let's say this transaction happens on draft night because a draft pick is included.

By the end of free agency, the object is to upgrade the roster. Somewhere during this period, you have acquired (with half the MLE) a PG to play alongside Luca - a playmaker with a decent 3-point shot (let's say Facundo Campazzo who also won the EuroCup Defensive Player of the Year award in 2017). You have have acquired a SG (let's say Justin Holiday) with the other half of the MLE. You have traded Wright and Justin Jackson for some rotation guard (e.g., Tyus Jones).

At the beginning of next season, you've eliminated Wright, Jackson, and Curry (and eventually Courtney Lee and Barea)
You've added Justin Holiday, Tyus Jones, Josh Richardson, and Facundo Campazzo. Perhaps you have also added James Ennis to this mix for the league minimum.

You just got better defensively, you got a playmaker who can play beside Luca or take over the PG duties in the rotation. Your non-Luca minutes in the rotation now look much better. All of these players will see significant minutes - much more than Wright, Jackson, Curry, Barea, and Lee. Their combined minutes offset Curry's production because all are scoring options playing more minutes. Whatever. The point is now there is no dead weight or DNPs.

Now I'm not even sure if this works financially. My only point is to illustrate a broader palette of trades that could occur during the window of time between the draft and the beginning of next season. It doesn't matter who the players are being traded. You can't see one Philadelphia trade in a vacuum. You have to wait until free agency has flushed out, and then give yourself a grade on what the new roster looks like.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#771 » by Pointguard01 » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:56 am

Here’s my concern with a trade centered around Seth Curry for Josh Richardson. We have seen Curry do well on this roster, in this system and next to Luka. We know this. We risk that with JR. Maybe he doesn’t work well not touching the ball much on offense? Maybe his shooting declines with being just a spot up shooter?

I hate the stats being thrown out. JR is a MUCH better defender than Delon Wright. The eye test shows that. JR would absolutely upgrade our defense at the PG/SG position, he’s great fighting through screens and playing quicker guards.

I’d love to add him but would try for using Wright/Brunson/#18 in some kind of bigger trades (or with an additional team) to get him. At that point, the risk is super low.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#772 » by JJP » Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:56 pm

Pointguard01 wrote:Here’s my concern with a trade centered around Seth Curry for Josh Richardson. We have seen Curry do well on this roster, in this system and next to Luka. We know this. We risk that with JR. Maybe he doesn’t work well not touching the ball much on offense? Maybe his shooting declines with being just a spot up shooter?

I hate the stats being thrown out. JR is a MUCH better defender than Delon Wright. The eye test shows that. JR would absolutely upgrade our defense at the PG/SG position, he’s great fighting through screens and playing quicker guards.

I’d love to add him but would try for using Wright/Brunson/#18 in some kind of bigger trades (or with an additional team) to get him. At that point, the risk is super low.


Unfortunately, Curry is the "need" for Philly. They want a solid perimeter scoring option. So it's hard to imagine any trade having to do with Wright.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#773 » by Fotis St » Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:25 pm

Bucks fan here ...
Any ideas where we get Seth Curry without including Middleton ?

Would you be interested in Donte DiVincenzo + Ersan Ilyasova or maybe around Eric Bledsoe ?
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#774 » by aguiar95 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:10 pm

Fotis St wrote:Bucks fan here ...
Any ideas where we get Seth Curry without including Middleton ?

Would you be interested in Donte DiVincenzo + Ersan Ilyasova or maybe around Eric Bledsoe ?


Bledsoe + DDV for Curry + Wright?
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#775 » by Fotis St » Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:48 pm

aguiar95 wrote:
Fotis St wrote:Bucks fan here ...
Any ideas where we get Seth Curry without including Middleton ?

Would you be interested in Donte DiVincenzo + Ersan Ilyasova or maybe around Eric Bledsoe ?


Bledsoe + DDV for Curry + Wright?


We could do that. You need perimeter defense , we need perimeter offense.

I think Bledsoe could be a good fit for you. You have enough shooters and he can penetrate. Our Giannis based system demands 3pt snipers, so Bledsoe although he is a good defender his offense doesn't fit with us.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#776 » by JJP » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:59 pm

Bledsoe is paid well, so the Mavs front office would have to know in advance that Bledsoe would be very good next to Luca. Because at that salary, he'd better be starting.

I don't have an opinion on this, but this is a bit of a gamble for the Mavs. Luca is fairly unique. It all comes down to how the Mavs would value Bledsoe's playmaking skills - not just his defense. After all, that's why we're trading Wright. It's not because of Wright's defense. It's because of his weak playmaking and inability to create his own shot.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#777 » by Captain_Obvious » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:20 am

Fotis St wrote:
aguiar95 wrote:
Fotis St wrote:Bucks fan here ...
Any ideas where we get Seth Curry without including Middleton ?

Would you be interested in Donte DiVincenzo + Ersan Ilyasova or maybe around Eric Bledsoe ?


Bledsoe + DDV for Curry + Wright?


We could do that. You need perimeter defense , we need perimeter offense.

I think Bledsoe could be a good fit for you. You have enough shooters and he can penetrate. Our Giannis based system demands 3pt snipers, so Bledsoe although he is a good defender his offense doesn't fit with us.

Thats a steep prize to "upgrade" Bledsoe to Curry, who is like a chair on defense. It could work with Giannis, but losing Donte ...idk. For Dallas this has to be a no-brainer.
I think the trade board is too harsh on Bledsoe, his last year is only partly guaranteed and I don't see how people take Wright for a 2nd rounder but look at Bledsoe as some kind of toxic contract.
So in essence, this trade is terrible for the Bucks. But we take it.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#778 » by arkuo » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:49 am

Captain_Obvious wrote:
Fotis St wrote:
aguiar95 wrote:
Bledsoe + DDV for Curry + Wright?


We could do that. You need perimeter defense , we need perimeter offense.

I think Bledsoe could be a good fit for you. You have enough shooters and he can penetrate. Our Giannis based system demands 3pt snipers, so Bledsoe although he is a good defender his offense doesn't fit with us.

Thats a steep prize to "upgrade" Bledsoe to Curry, who is like a chair on defense. It could work with Giannis, but losing Donte ...idk. For Dallas this has to be a no-brainer.
I think the trade board is too harsh on Bledsoe, his last year is only partly guaranteed and I don't see how people take Wright for a 2nd rounder but look at Bledsoe as some kind of toxic contract.
So in essence, this trade is terrible for the Bucks. But we take it.


Im of the opinion that we can still win with Seth Curry in the wings with Luka running point. What we need to upgrade is DFS at the SF spot. We only need to look as far as Miami to know that this team can be successful. Tyler Herro and Duncan Robinson all get heavy minutes and they dont play a lick of defense. They just have Buter and Adebayo playing D. We have DFS and KP. That tells me we need an upgrade to our SF spot and not just have DFS average 8 points per game playing heavy minutes there.
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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#779 » by Mr B » Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:06 pm

arkuo wrote:
Captain_Obvious wrote:
Fotis St wrote:
We could do that. You need perimeter defense , we need perimeter offense.

I think Bledsoe could be a good fit for you. You have enough shooters and he can penetrate. Our Giannis based system demands 3pt snipers, so Bledsoe although he is a good defender his offense doesn't fit with us.

Thats a steep prize to "upgrade" Bledsoe to Curry, who is like a chair on defense. It could work with Giannis, but losing Donte ...idk. For Dallas this has to be a no-brainer.
I think the trade board is too harsh on Bledsoe, his last year is only partly guaranteed and I don't see how people take Wright for a 2nd rounder but look at Bledsoe as some kind of toxic contract.
So in essence, this trade is terrible for the Bucks. But we take it.


Im of the opinion that we can still win with Seth Curry in the wings with Luka running point. What we need to upgrade is DFS at the SF spot. We only need to look as far as Miami to know that this team can be successful. Tyler Herro and Duncan Robinson all get heavy minutes and they dont play a lick of defense. They just have Buter and Adebayo playing D. We have DFS and KP. That tells me we need an upgrade to our SF spot and not just have DFS average 8 points per game playing heavy minutes there.

Also need a strong defender at the 4. Do the Mavs have anything Atlanta would want for Capela?


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Re: Trade Central 19-20 / cap info (pg.1) 

Post#780 » by Pointguard01 » Thu Oct 1, 2020 12:40 pm

ATL is gonna want to run it with Capela, since they just traded for him at the deadline and haven’t seen him play. I doubt anything gets done there.


I’m a big hell no to Bledsoe. I don’t know why you would be building a playoff team and target a guy who has gotten worse in the playoffs. AND be ok paying him $17mill/yr. Absolutely no.

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