Harris vs Howard?

JES12 · Post #1 » by **JES12** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:23 am

It seems ss_maverick wants to have everyone who doesn't follow the Mavericks vote on this issue, so I'm going to start a thread for those who actually watches the Mavericks.

On the recent TV poll:
37% saif Harris has been our MVP thus far
33% said Howard has been our MVP thus far
30% said Dirk has been our MVP thus far (who I voted for)

Now take Dirk completely out, just Harris vs Howard.

Who has the bigger impact on the game?

ss_mavericks' thread for non-mav fans when the most recent game they say is tonights where Howard actually decided to show up both halves and Harris could not display his ability:
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic. ... 0#15376980

BTW, so you don't have to look it up:

Colombiano972 · Post #2 » by **Colombiano972** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:02 am

Harris. He is a pivotal part of our offense and he effectively molds it. Devin is the Mav's most consistent dribble penetration threat and can completely punish other teams when they try to focus all their attention on J-Ho and Dirk. His slashing really helps spread the floor, which enable Devin set up spot up shooters like Terry and Stack and dump it of to Bass or Damp in the post. Even though Josh's stats are more appealing, Devin has an impact that is beyond any form of statistical reasoning. Devin's play is critical to our playoff success.

mavsfoty · Post #3 » by **mavsfoty** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:17 am

I voted Harris because he does what a PG should do and makes the team and teammates better.

Howard has improved on last year's #'s and gets the team going but as a whole DH is the engine of the team.

ppp000 · Post #4 » by **ppp000** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:03 am

Harris was playing very well before his injury..hopefully he gets back on track and continues to improve. I would say his improvement this season has made him very valuable to this team.

B/c he is the only one to drive to the basket when the rest of our players lounge outside, I'll give him my vote.

dirkforpres · Post #5 » by **dirkforpres** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:15 am

We definately need both, but id say we need Howard more than Harris because he is our most well rounded player.

JES12 · Post #6 » by **JES12** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:17 am

4-0 as of now (before I mentioned this thread on the player comparison forum). From this point forward, any fan of any team may come over & vote w/o posting a comment.

BTW

Per 48
..........Howard........Harris
PTS.......27.0.........22.7
REB........9.8...........3.6
AST........2.7...........8.4
BLK........0.5...........0.2
STL........0.9...........2.2
FG%.......47.5.........48.3
FT%.......82.2.........82.1
3PT%.....35.5.........35.7

JES12 · Post #7 » by **JES12** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:28 am

dirkforpres wrote:We definately need both, but id say we need Howard more than Harris because he is our most well rounded player.

I agree they ARE BOTH NEEDED, but Howard doesn't play 1/4 the defense that he did last year. He has become an offensive jumpshooter that can rebound, thus not well rounded play, though he has the capability to. His defense is still better than most on this team, but I think Bass has surpassed Howard on the defensive end.

Post #8 » by **DDansby123** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:49 am

I still think Howard is the better player, but I agree that Harris may have more to do with our overall playoff success than Josh. Devin brings a unique skillset to the Mavs relative to his teammates, and if utilizes it, he should have a greater impact on our success.

ppp000 · Post #9 » by **ppp000** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:00 am

I think the reason why some people are getting their panties in a bunch is b/c they think the question is more about whos the better player. Obviously Josh is considered an all-star and Devin isn't there yet, Josh will net greater value in a trade, Josh is a top SF, etc etc.

However, for me its more about who brings a different element to the team, which is Harris this year with the way he's been playing. He's the only one who can consistently attack the basket and has brought us back in games in the 3rd and 4th quarter. I'm not saying Harris our saviour, just saying his brings a different element to our O that is invaluable. (Among the outside shooters Dirk, Josh and Jet)

JES12 · Post #10 » by **JES12** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:15 am

BTW, a little off subject, but similar

Mavsfoty, I have been looking for a sig with our big 3, but I cannot find one anywhere. I was able to find an avatar, but no sigs. As you know, I really loved the one with the 3 PGs (I still have saved), but I would really love one on Dirk in the middle and Howard & Harris on either side. I did not see you to active on the GFX request thread and the ones you make are better than theres. Is there any way I can get you to make one for me?

Teddy KGB · Post #11 » by **Teddy KGB** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:28 am

Wait, so Harris brings a different element to the team and Josh doesn't? Harris slashes very well, but Josh Howard brings the toughness to this team. I mean seriously, Dallas is known as a soft team already and how soft would we be without Josh? Who is the next toughest player? Terry? Stackhouse? Other than Josh the rest of the team is as soft as a pillow.

Josh Howard is IMO the Pippen of the Mavs. That's not to say he's as good as Scottie, because he is nowhere close. BUT, he is our glue guy. He is the guy who always shows up. Last playoffs against GS, where the **** was Harris? Matter of fact, where the **** was Dirk or JET or anybody other than Josh and Stack?

Oh, and Bass has surpassed Josh on the defensive end? NOWHERE near. Bass is an above average defensive player, Josh is an excellent defensive player. Please don't bring Bass into this convo as I really dont want to diss him.

"I voted Harris because he does what a PG should do and makes the team and teammates better.

Howard has improved on last year's #'s and gets the team going but as a whole DH is the engine of the team."

What does Harris do that a PG should do? IMO a PG should set up his teammates. Does Harris do that? No. OTOH, you can also be a good PG in the Tony Parker mold and score a lot. Does Harris do that? No. He is excellent defensively, maybe even slightly better than Josh. Oh, and regarding this whole making teammates better thing, who exactly has he made better? Which Mav has shown drastic improvement this year? Don't say Bass because he wasn't even on our team last year.

Finally, most of the votes for Harris have been based off his ability to penetrate and get to the rim. I am totally cool with that, except for the fact that he is not actually very good at it. If he was really good at that, he would be putting up Tony Parker-esque numbers. But does he? No.

Overall I think it comes down to who you would rather have. Tony Parker lite or Scottie Pippen lite. I think we all know the answer to that one.

italy_23 · Post #12 » by **italy_23** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:35 am

I voted for devin. josh is a very good player but I think devin has a bigger impact on the teams success.

JES12 · Post #13 » by **JES12** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:36 am

Sorry, ss_maverick.

I think you said it before, you must be watching the wrong games as Harris does set up his teammates. He does not get 5.5 ast in just 30 min by twitling his thumbs on a team that spends most of its time running iso's.

And Howard did show up in the playoff last year. I agree! BUT, there were 2 other mavs that did better in the playoffs than the reg season also. One was Diop, and the other was yours truley.

italy_23 wrote:I voted for devin. josh is a very good player but I think devin has a bigger impact on the teams success.

That pretty much sums it up in the fewest words. That is the point I was making that sparked this entire day long discussion right before I was told to step away from my crack dealer.

Post #14 » by **DDansby123** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:42 am

SS, you make some good points, particularly re: Harris and making his teammates better (there's ZERO evidence of that actually happening).

But while Josh certainly has some toughness to him, he also is (a) primarily a jumpshooter, (b) a poor passer, and (c) inconsistent in his efforts defensively. Sound like anyone you know? To me, it sounds like most of the rest of the Mavs' roster. In my book, that makes him more like his teammates than Harris, and that's the unique quality that we're talking about Devin bringing to this team.

In terms of who has the bigger impact on the game, it actually varies, IMO. To me, even though Howard brings a similar skillset as his teammates, his play is more consistent than Devin's, unique though the latter's may be. So it's tough to determine which guy actually has a bigger impact. That's why I said that Harris would be the more vital of the two IF he utilized his abilities (more consistently). I don't think that's a difficult argument to justify at all.

ppp000 · Post #15 » by **ppp000** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:53 am

The mavs are soft whether or not Josh is "tough" or not and that's solely a personal opinion anyways.

I agree with what DDans. said. From the games I've seen THIS season (last season I wouldn't even bother to argue about Josh vs. Devin with Josh being superior), Josh impacts the first half and Devin impacts the 2nd half. When the rest of the team was bogged down by outside shot, it was Devin who started a run and singlehandedly brought this team back to life in several games. Josh still does his disappearing act in the 2nd half too much for my taste and I think if he could produce half of what he does the 1st half of games in the most important 3/4 th quarters on a more consistent basis, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

That said, Josh is our "glue" guy. However this season he has become less consistent on D, more of a jumpshooter, less of a slasher that he was. While Devin has improved from last season. I think that's why more people are looking into this debate.

JES12 · Post #16 » by **JES12** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:59 am

ss_maverick wrote:Overall I think it comes down to who you would rather have. Tony Parker lite or Scottie Pippen lite. I think we all know the answer to that one.

This would be a good comparison if 1) Howard played defense this year the way he did last year (esp in the GSW series) and 2) If you strip all of Harris' defensive skill as Parker has none and exerts all his efforts on the offensive end.

Teddy KGB · Post #17 » by **Teddy KGB** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 8:01 am

DDansby123 wrote:SS, you make some good points, particularly re: Harris and making his teammates better (there's ZERO evidence of that actually happening).

But while Josh certainly has some toughness to him, he also is (a) primarily a jumpshooter, (b) a poor passer, and (c) inconsistent in his efforts defensively. Sound like anyone you know? To me, it sounds like most of the rest of the Mavs' roster. In my book, that makes him more like his teammates than Harris, and that's the unique quality that we're talking about Devin bringing to this team.

Well, of course his offensive game is based around jumpshooting. Our whole offense is! I mean seriously, taking Devin over Josh because Josh is a jumpshooter is like taking Devin over Dirk because Dirk is a jumpshooter. Josh may be a jumpshooter but he fits seamlessly into our offense, and is undoubtedly the better offensive player so I don't see how Harris' offensive style being any different is in his favour. I wouldn't call Josh a poor passer either. He's decent at it, but 2.1apg at SF is no worse than 5.3apg at PG. As to the last point, I agree, Josh is inconsistent with his effort on D. However, in big games he does give effort and then he's an outstanding defensive player. And while Josh is inconsistent on D, Harris is inconsistent in general.

In terms of who has the bigger impact on the game, it actually varies, IMO. To me, even though Howard brings a similar skillset as his teammates, his play is more consistent than Devin's, unique though the latter's may be. So it's tough to determine which guy actually has a bigger impact. That's why I said that Harris would be the more vital of the two IF he utilized his abilities (more consistently). I don't think that's a difficult argument to justify at all.

As I said previously, I don't see having similar skillsets as a bad thing. I mean, if Josh wasn't a jumpshooter, we couldn't even run the offense the way we do. Say he was a slasher. We would have Devin and Josh wanting to slash into the basket, Dirk and Terry wanting to take jumpers and Stack taking lots of **** shots other than in crunch time. Can you imagine Avery trying to make an offensive scheme based on that? I sure can't. Besides, having all the crucial cogs as the same type of player HAS worked in the past. Jordan and Pippen both excelled at posting/slashing, and Rodman also played close to the basket. It worked for them, why can't it work for us? I see no reason.

JES12 · Post #18 » by **JES12** » Tue Feb 5, 2008 8:08 am

ss_maverick wrote:What does Harris do that a PG should do? IMO a PG should set up his teammates. Does Harris do that? No. OTOH, you can also be a good PG in the Tony Parker mold and score a lot. Does Harris do that? No. He is excellent defensively, maybe even slightly better than Josh. Oh, and regarding this whole making teammates better thing, who exactly has he made better? Which Mav has shown drastic improvement this year? Don't say Bass because he wasn't even on our team last year.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 7ba96.html

Mavericks miss Harris
With their point guard out again, Dirk has miserable shooting day

10:15 PM CST on Sunday, February 3, 2008
By EDDIE SEFKO / The Dallas Morning News
esefko@dallasnews.com

AUBURN HILLS, Mich.