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Harris vs Howard?

Moderators: Dirk, HMFFL, Mavrelous

Who has the bigger impact on the game?

Howard
11
46%
Harris
13
54%
 
Total votes: 24

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Post#21 » by Teddy KGB » Tue Feb 5, 2008 8:58 am

Yeah but then everybody else has these "hockey assists" as well.

And all those players play 34+ minutes because they DESERVE 34+ minutes. If Harris was really that good, JET would have had very few minutes and would have been dealt by now
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Post#22 » by DDansby123 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:03 am

ss_maverick wrote:Well, of course his offensive game is based around jumpshooting. Our whole offense is! I mean seriously, taking Devin over Josh because Josh is a jumpshooter is like taking Devin over Dirk because Dirk is a jumpshooter. Josh may be a jumpshooter but he fits seamlessly into our offense, and is undoubtedly the better offensive player so I don't see how Harris' offensive style being any different is in his favour.


The offense is a jumpshooting one because all we have are jumpshooters (aside from Harris), not the other way around. And we're not talking about which player we'd "take" over another; we're talking about which player might have a greater impact on our season.

Now, why might that be Harris? Why might have a different offensive style be beneficial? I think it's pretty clear that having diverse offensive talent is a key component to winning basketball games. You must have a solid mix of both slashers and shooters to be effective. Without Harris, there is virtually no one on this team consistently attacking the basket, and that can have a hugely detrimental impact on our chances for victory (particularly in the playoffs). So, yes, I think Harris' unique skills are very valuable to this team and work in his favor.

I wouldn't call Josh a poor passer either. He's decent at it, but 2.1apg at SF is no worse than 5.3apg at PG.


No, he's not a decent passer; he rarely passes the ball at all. He looks to score and has tunnel vision most of the time.

As to the last point, I agree, Josh is inconsistent with his effort on D. However, in big games he does give effort and then he's an outstanding defensive player. And while Josh is inconsistent on D, Harris is inconsistent in general.


I agree, which is why I said Harris is more valuable if he utilizes his skills. He doesn't always do that.

As I said previously, I don't see having similar skillsets as a bad thing.


It's not a bad thing, but you can have too much of a good thing. And the Mavs have too many shooters and too few slashers, making Harris more valuable, IMO.

Besides, having all the crucial cogs as the same type of player HAS worked in the past. Jordan and Pippen both excelled at posting/slashing, and Rodman also played close to the basket. It worked for them, why can't it work for us? I see no reason.


No, no, no, no, no. Jordan and Pippen could both do pretty much EVERYTHING on the court well; they were as versatile a pair of wings as there has ever been on the same team....hardly comparable to anyone we have on our team.

Further, it's important to note that posting/slashing is generally regarded as a skill that leads to higher percentage shots (whether they be layups, dunks, or FTs), and that (again) is hardly comparable to a team full of jumpshooters.


I understand your argument that Howard is more important than Harris, and he may very well be, but most of these points just don't hold water.
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Post#23 » by Teddy KGB » Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:07 am

Lol the Jordan and Pippen point was based on the first pair that came to mind. A better example would have been the pistons and how much of a jumpshooting team [also with suffocating defense] they were back in the Ben Wallace days.
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Post#24 » by DDansby123 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:09 am

On the assists thing, that stat isn't a true indication of making teammates better. Hell, JET averaged 5.2 APG last year (5 more MPG than Harris) and had a better AST/TO ratio in the process. In fact, JET's averaged 5.1 APG over 34 MPG in his career, and he's hardly somebody I'd say made his teammates better over the years.

That's not to say Harris doesn't create some open looks for guys occasionally. He just doesn't do it that often, and it's almost always based on making a pass to a spot on the floor where his teammate is supposed to be. That's fine, but Harris hardly has what I'd call good court vision or passing skills for a PG. That's why I've said before (and I'll say it again now) that Harris is a scoring PG who'll rack up some assists, but he's nothing more than that. That would/could be enough in some cases.
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Post#25 » by JES12 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:09 am

ss_maverick wrote:Yeah but then everybody else has these "hockey assists" as well.

And all those players play 34+ minutes because they DESERVE 34+ minutes. If Harris was really that good, JET would have had very few minutes and would have been dealt by now
Okay, now you are just becoming as ludicrus as when you told me to step away from my crack dealer.

Several sigths have Harris ranked as #9 and Terry ranked #10 PGs. Besides the Toronto pair of Calderon and Ford, name me any other PG's duo that can even compare to ours. I have already asked you to no avail that 1 position, PG has to compete with 2 top 10 PG and a darn good 3rd string PG. Besides Howard, do we even have a top 40 or so swing player to compete with those 96 min at SG/SF? By defalt, Howard would have more minutes.....and here is the big things that you seem to not understand HARRIS DOES DESERVE MORE MINUTES DESPITE WHAT YOU THINK. We have the best PG trio in the entire NBA and Donnie is not going to trade Terry in a bad deal just because Harris deserves more minutes.

They tried to get Maggette for Terry + 1st. Did you just forget about that? You would have for sure see Harris 38 min, Howard 30 min, Maggette 30 min, Stack 20 min and so on.
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Post#26 » by DDansby123 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:12 am

ss_maverick wrote:Lol the Jordan and Pippen point was based on the first pair that came to mind. A better example would have been the pistons and how much of a jumpshooting team [also with suffocating defense] they were back in the Ben Wallace days.


The Pistons are the exception to the rule. They're actually the exception to a lot of championship rules (they didn't have a true superstar, inside post presence, etc.). And if we had their defense, I'd say they're a better example. But their defense helped out their offense so much more than ours ever could that the comparison isn't valid, IMO.
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Post#27 » by mavsfoty » Tue Feb 5, 2008 2:42 pm

JES12 wrote:BTW, a little off subject, but similar

Mavsfoty, I have been looking for a sig with our big 3, but I cannot find one anywhere. I was able to find an avatar, but no sigs. As you know, I really loved the one with the 3 PGs (I still have saved), but I would really love one on Dirk in the middle and Howard & Harris on either side. I did not see you to active on the GFX request thread and the ones you make are better than theres. Is there any way I can get you to make one for me?


Will do.
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Post#28 » by Deus » Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:01 pm

DDansby123 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

The Pistons are the exception to the rule. They're actually the exception to a lot of championship rules (they didn't have a true superstar, inside post presence, etc.). And if we had their defense, I'd say they're a better example. But their defense helped out their offense so much more than ours ever could that the comparison isn't valid, IMO.


Rasheed Wallace is the Pistons superstar. He can do anything a coach asks. You want him to post up, he can. You want him to rebound, he can. You want him to defend, he can. You want him to drop back and hit the 3, he can. He was the reason why the Blazers got to the Western Finals against the Lakers and not Scottie Pippen. He just had to defer to Pippen because Pippen had 6 rings. And they lost.
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Post#29 » by mavsfoty » Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:34 pm

For JES12:

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Post#30 » by JES12 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:37 pm

mavsfoty wrote:For JES12:

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Post#31 » by itsgotime » Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:58 pm

Devin gets the very slight nod from me for reasons stated. As far as trade value, I'd expect to get quite a bit more for JHo than Devin however. If Devin is able to get his shot off more often and become a threat from anywhere on the court like JHo is, that is when he'll surpass JHo's trade value.[/list]
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Post#32 » by DDansby123 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:26 pm

scramm wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Rasheed Wallace is the Pistons superstar. He can do anything a coach asks. You want him to post up, he can. You want him to rebound, he can. You want him to defend, he can. You want him to drop back and hit the 3, he can. He was the reason why the Blazers got to the Western Finals against the Lakers and not Scottie Pippen. He just had to defer to Pippen because Pippen had 6 rings. And they lost.


Rasheed wasn't even the best player on the Pistons' championship teams, let alone a superstar.
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Post#33 » by your_dallas_mavericks » Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:48 pm

I voted for Devin because he runs the offense, dribble penetrates, plays "shut down corner" defense on other PGs, is true speed to the basket, and we suck most of the time without him. This makes him our MVP this season LOL!
If we could just close games with Luka, Kyrie, Green, Maxi, and Wood that'd be great...
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Post#34 » by DDansby123 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:47 pm

your_dallas_mavericks wrote:I voted for Devin because he runs the offense, dribble penetrates, plays "shut down corner" defense on other PGs, is true speed to the basket, and we suck most of the time without him. This makes him our MVP this season LOL!


I don't think I'd characterize Devin's defense as anything near "shut-down" level.
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Post#35 » by Rand10 » Wed Feb 6, 2008 1:45 am

Howard is better right now, but I think Harris is the key to our season. Like others have mentioned, Harris brings a lot of what we don't have to the table.
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Post#36 » by JHo&T.O.FaSho » Wed Feb 6, 2008 3:32 am

JHo fa sho!
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