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Calling out JHO, and JES12 you were right
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:56 am
by ppp000
Bad trade.
Josh Howard= most overrated "2nd option" in the nba today.
game 1: 4-15, 0-8 in the second half
game 2: 3-10
Mr. I deserve-to-be-an-all-star no longer cannot defend but also plays without any heart or hustle.
And this is not Kidd's fault, but this team is considerably worse since we have ERICA-soft-like-tissue in the paint without a backup, and no one who drives and can score 15+ like Devin.
Especially when NO ONE BUT DIRK CAN FRICKEN SCORE.
Busy offseason guys, lets hope!!
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:57 am
by Rand10
I'm just worried that jho is killing all his value
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:22 am
by dirkforpres
I highly doubt they would trade J-Ho, even though I think it would be a good idea. The Mavs do not have a number 2 player... Kidd, Howard, and Terry should all be able to hold their own on this team but none of them have lately. Im anxious to see what happens this summer... I think it definately starts with the coach though.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:18 am
by JES12
Thanks for the credit, but that statement was meant for ss_maverick as he and I used to go back and forth about Josh & Devin's value/role on this team. At least 4 different threads on the trade forum and General discussion forum. Non-mavs used to find it hilarious watching 2 mavs argue about their own players. I'm sure by our present and past sigs, we know who was a fan of whom.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:57 am
by studcrackers
i was also against the trade, though i was somewhat willing to give this failure a chance
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:15 am
by italy_23
if howard continues to play like that the mavs wont be able to trade him for anyone near all-star caliber. sad
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:10 pm
by cavsfan_osiris
JES12 and those who agreed with him were right, the Kidd trade was a disaster. I thought it was worth the risk and I still maintain Dallas had to do something because they weren't going to win the West as previously construed.
I did underestimate the impact of losing Devin Harris and Diop. It's ironic that Harris' defense is exactly what Dallas needs right now, not to mention his offensive ability to slash. Jason Kidd is serving no purpose right now.
The Mavs have to make some type of adjustment offensively to get more impact from Kidd. What that would be I don't know? Speed up their game maybe? With the Hornets dropping 122 I don't know if that would help.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:30 pm
by DDansby123
^ Honestly, Kidd's not the problem offensively. Once again we're trying to change a player into something we need. First, we tried to turn Devin Harris into a PG, instead of letting him be a scoring guard. Now, apparently, we want Jason Kidd to be a scorer. Insanity.
As for the Kidd trade, it's a disaster not because of the players we don't have anymore, but because of the guys who are still here: JET, Stack, and Josh. These three have been terrible since the Kidd trade...and I didn't see anyone on these boards predicting Josh's downfall. Kidd is a passer, and if he finds these guys open looks, and they miss, that's not his fault. Is it his fault that he's not a good scorer? I guess so.
Personally, I don't think Kidd's the problem with this team. He's been everything I expected. I didn't expect the play of JET, Stack, and Josh to fall off so tremendously, though. Again, I go back to re-signing the first two of that group as the moment this team headed south. Those signings, coupled with Avery Johnson and front office (I'm on board with getting rid of that entire group), forced us into making the Kidd trade. That's where I think the fault lies.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:36 pm
by cavsfan_osiris
DDansby123 wrote:^ Honestly, Kidd's not the problem offensively. Once again we're trying to change a player into something we need. First, we tried to turn Devin Harris into a PG, instead of letting him be a scoring guard. Now, apparently, we want Jason Kidd to be a scorer. Insanity.
As for the Kidd trade, it's a disaster not because of the players we don't have anymore, but because of the guys who are still here: JET, Stack, and Josh. These three have been terrible since the Kidd trade...and I didn't see anyone on these boards predicting Josh's downfall. Kidd is a passer, and if he finds these guys open looks, and they miss, that's not his fault. Is it his fault that he's not a good scorer? I guess so.
Personally, I don't think Kidd's the problem with this team. He's been everything I expected. I didn't expect the play of JET, Stack, and Josh to fall off so tremendously, though. Again, I go back to re-signing the first two of that group as the moment this team headed south. Those signings, coupled with Avery Johnson and front office (I'm on board with getting rid of that entire group), forced us into making the Kidd trade. That's where I think the fault lies.
Great points
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:36 pm
by HMFFL
DDansby123 wrote:^ Honestly, Kidd's not the problem offensively. Once again we're trying to change a player into something we need. First, we tried to turn Devin Harris into a PG, instead of letting him be a scoring guard. Now, apparently, we want Jason Kidd to be a scorer. Insanity.
As for the Kidd trade, it's a disaster not because of the players we don't have anymore, but because of the guys who are still here: JET, Stack, and Josh. These three have been terrible since the Kidd trade...and I didn't see anyone on these boards predicting Josh's downfall. Kidd is a passer, and if he finds these guys open looks, and they miss, that's not his fault. Is it his fault that he's not a good scorer? I guess so.
Personally, I don't think Kidd's the problem with this team. He's been everything I expected. I didn't expect the play of JET, Stack, and Josh to fall off so tremendously, though. Again, I go back to re-signing the first two of that group as the moment this team headed south. Those signings, coupled with Avery Johnson and front office (I'm on board with getting rid of that entire group), forced us into making the Kidd trade. That's where I think the fault lies.
Well said DDansby.
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:35 pm
by JES12
DDansby123 wrote:As for the Kidd trade, it's a disaster not because of the players we don't have anymore, but because of the guys who are still here: JET, Stack, and Josh. These three have been terrible since the Kidd trade
The Kidd trade IS, I repeat, IS a disaster because of the players we don't have anymore. You could not be more wrong. And if you think Stack and Terry only sucked after the Kidd trade, then you should re-watch the 1st half of the season.
DDansby123 wrote:He's been everything I expected.
Agreed. He was all I expected also. He actually got a triple double with the rebounders on our team!

That, I wasn't expecting. But Kidd and this team has become what I expected and that is the reason why I hated it down to the dirty, filthy, nasty core. Forget Diop, the picks, and the cash. Just the principle of Harris for Kidd is idiotic. Not that I don't like Kidd, but if the cost was Harris, it was a "HELL NO" for me.
DDansby123 wrote:I didn't expect the play of JET, Stack, and Josh to fall off so tremendously, though.
Hope you are talking from previous seasons. They did not fall off too much after Kidd got here vs the 1st half of theis season cuz they were already low (JET and Stack that is). Howard falling off was not shocking, but how far he dropped off on the offensive side is. HOWEVER, Howard was a jumpshoting, no defense, black hole
before the Kidd trade; expecting him to change his style just cuz Kidd on this team was an obvious flaw by all those who though Kidd brought magic fairy dust with him.
The only noticable upgrade was that Dirk started playing like the regular season had some meaning instead of being a 82-game scrimmage. Damp still inconcistant.
DDansby123 wrote:Those signings, coupled with Avery Johnson and front office (I'm on board with getting rid of that entire group), forced us into making the Kidd trade. That's where I think the fault lies.
QFT
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:02 am
by DDansby123
JES12 wrote:The Kidd trade IS, I repeat, IS a disaster because of the players we don't have anymore. You could not be more wrong. And if you think Stack and Terry only sucked after the Kidd trade, then you should re-watch the 1st half of the season.
Nobody said they only sucked after Kidd got here. The difference is that now they're missing MORE wide open shots than they did previously. That was unexpected. Kidd has done his job and found those guys open looks, but they haven't hit them.
As for the players who are gone, what exactly do you think they'd be doing right now? Diop would likely be on the bench or playing a fairly uneventful 10 MPG like he did before he left. Harris would be able to take over some of the scoring (which Kidd can't do nearly as well), but he could just as easily be in foul trouble and on the bench.
Hope you are talking from previous seasons. They did not fall off too much after Kidd got here vs the 1st half of theis season cuz they were already low (JET and Stack that is). Howard falling off was not shocking, but how far he dropped off on the offensive side is. HOWEVER, Howard was a jumpshoting, no defense, black hole before the Kidd trade; expecting him to change his style just cuz Kidd on this team was an obvious flaw by all those who though Kidd brought magic fairy dust with him.
Not one person is suggesting (or did suggest) that Kidd would change the styles of JET, Stack, or Josh. What we stated flat out was that Kidd would give those guys more open looks at the basket. From what I've seen, he's done exactly that. But those guys haven't made the shots that, frankly, I thought they'd make. See, my problem with those players is that they force the issue, not that they're terrible shooters. Now, even when they have good, clear looks, they're not making shots. And they're unquestionably missing those open looks more than they did earlier in the season.
So, to me, yet again, it's Stack, JET, and Howard who haven't stepped up a lick after the trade...and have actually backtracked even further. Now, if you actually predicted that would happen, cheers for you. I don't recall seeing that, though.
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:15 am
by JES12
I guess we see things differently. I was upset at Avery for not wanting to include Stack because Stack was without a doubt, terrible. He looked WAAAAAAAAY better as a starter from March 8th til his groin injury. So, Stack actually played better and you are saying he played worse. Can't say I agree with you there at all.
Teffer10, daoneandonly, myself and a few others were growing sick of Terry before th trade also. He hasn't got wosrse, he stayed the same. Can't say I agree with you there either.
Howard was the worst at shooting ill-advised jumpers before the trade. Same is true now. Can say I agree with you on him.
Thay all were horrific before Kidd and after Kidd.
Oh, and BTW, Devin drew a lot of attention and double teams that got Stack and Terry wide open shots before the trade. So, yet once again, I can't agree with you there either.
And Chandler and West would have FORCED Avery to play Diop 20+ MPG. Definatly can't say I agree with you on that one.
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:34 am
by Rand10
In the 29 regular season games with Kidd, Terry scored 16.9 pts on 47.1% shooting. His total average for the year was 15.5 pts on 46.7% shooting.
In 19 games Stackhouse scored 12.4 pts on on 43.4% shooting. His average for the season was 10.7 pts 40.5%.
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:37 am
by DDansby123
JES12 wrote:I guess we see things differently. I was upset at Avery for not wanting to include Stack because Stack was without a doubt, terrible. He looked WAAAAAAAAY better as a starter from March 8th til his groin injury. So, Stack actually played better and you are saying he played worse. Can't say I agree with you there at all.
That's true. Stack did look good for a short period.
Teffer10, daoneandonly, myself and a few others were growing sick of Terry before th trade also. He hasn't got wosrse, he stayed the same. Can't say I agree with you there either.
His 3-point percentage, his specialty, dropped to 30% after the Kidd trade. He was mid-30s and above before that. Clearly, the one above-average facet of his game suffered after Kidd got here.
Howard was the worst at shooting ill-advised jumpers before the trade. Same is true now. Can say I agree with you on him.
Again, it's more about the wide open jumpers he's missing now than the forced shots. I mean come on, you can't tell me Josh wasn't significantly worse after the Kidd trade and in the playoffs than he was before. No way can you honestly say that.
Thay all were horrific before Kidd and after Kidd.
So, you're saying they're all just as bad now as they were before Kidd and for exactly the same reasons? If so, you've gone off the deep end (again).
The bottom line is that the supporting scorers behind Dirk have played worse with Kidd than before he arrived. From what I've seen, that's not his fault. So that leaves blame to be placed squarely on those three supporting scorers: JET, Stack, and Josh. You can sit there and argue that they're no worse than they were before Kidd, but stats and my two eyes see it differently.
Oh, and BTW, Devin drew a lot of attention and double teams that got Stack and Terry wide open shots before the trade. So, yet once again, I can't agree with you there either.
He got them some, yes, but not as many as Kidd does. Dirk will back me up on this.
And Chandler and West would have FORCED Avery to play Diop 20+ MPG. Definatly can't say I agree with you on that one.
Why would they have forced Avery to play Diop? Didn't other teams force Damp out in the regular season, and didn't Avery opt to go with Bass repeatedly over Diop then? Why would things change?
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:44 am
by DDansby123
Rand10 wrote:In the 29 regular season games with Kidd, Terry scored 16.9 pts on 47.1% shooting. His total average for the year was 15.5 pts on 46.7% shooting.
First, it's not all about shooting percentages. It's the boneheaded plays and dumb decisions he's made too. Not that he was immune from that before...just seems like he's made as many or more in fewer minutes.
Second, his 3-point percentage was 30.5% after the Kidd deal, a whopping 7% below his season average. A lot of those looks that he missed were wide open looks (and misses at horrible times).
Regardless, he's done better shooting in the playoffs, but the dumb stuff is still there.
In 19 games Stackhouse scored 12.4 pts on on 43.4% shooting. His average for the season was 10.7 pts 40.5%.
And how's he done in the playoffs? Played well at all has he?
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:45 am
by JES12
Rand10 wrote:In the 29 regular season games with Kidd, Terry scored 16.9 pts on 47.1% shooting. His total average for the year was 15.5 pts on 46.7% shooting.
In 19 games Stackhouse scored 12.4 pts on on 43.4% shooting. His average for the season was 10.7 pts 40.5%.
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!
DDansby went off the deep end and claiming I'm the one. Then he claims the stats prove he is right when clearly, these players have stepped up more after Kidd got here.
Yes, Howard went into a slump, but he is out of that slump and back to his pre-Kidd form...black hole, no defense, no 2nd half, jumpshooting self.
The fact remains, Devin did so much for this team that their (including Dirk's) improvement and Kidd can't compensate.
Not to get in another heated "place you on ignore" rampage, but you are wrong DDansby. Admit it!
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:57 am
by DDansby123
JES12 wrote:DDansby went off the deep end and claiming I'm the one. The he claims the stats prove he is right when clearly, these players have stepped up more after Kidd got here.
How in the world do you look at those stats and deduce that those guys "stepped up" after the Kidd trade? A 0.4% improvement for JET is "stepping up"? A 2.9% improvement from Stack is "stepping up"?
Either way, I go back to my argument all along, which was that what Kidd brings to the table (open shots for teammates) isn't translating into improved numbers for the guys who get those open looks (JET, Terry, and Josh). Quoting the stats alone doesn't pick up on that.
And yes, I was wrong. I argued that stats would support my argument that JET, Stack, and Josh have been terrible since the Kidd trade. That's not exactly the case with all of them. JET's 3-point percentage dropped considerably, which doesn't make much sense. Stack's stunk in the playoffs, perhaps due to his injury. And Josh has just been junk when he's out there with Dirk. The problem (and where I was wrong) was I went all the way back to the Kidd trade instead of focusing on the playoffs, which was my original intention. The tangent was on page 2. My post on the bottom of page 1 still holds.
Back to my original point, though: those three have done virtually nothing to step up their games and help us win...and it's not Kidd's fault they're not doing it. Based on what I've seen, I'd say all three have gotten worse, particularly since the playoffs started. Is that an incorrect assessment?
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:12 am
by JES12
Hopefully they decide to show up quick.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:18 am
by JES12
DDansby123 wrote:So, to me, yet again, it's Stack, JET, and Howard who haven't stepped up a lick after the trade...and have actually backtracked even further. Now, if you actually predicted that would happen, cheers for you. I don't recall seeing that, though.
To be fair without just bashing again, I did predict Kidd would never get double teamed. I did predict the other players would be defended better because more attention could be spent on them. I did predict less open shots unless Kidd was amazingly better than he has been for the last 3 year.