question regarding Josh Howard

[Cashville_33]

Looking over this board one of his biggest flaws seems to be that he scores more in the first half then he does the second half, not taking over games. My question is, why is that not the case when Dirk is out? The four games he was out, Howard had 3 20+ second halves (scored 10 against denver). He also had 3 double digit 4th quarters(GSW, LAC*2). That's with him being the first option and teams focusing on him. This also came during the biggest stretch of the season for you guys. The pressure was great (especially the game at Gstate). If he wasn't a pressure scorer he would have buckled and been exposed, he didn't. With Dirk in the lineup one would assume he could have greater second half scoring outputs due to the fact that he is no longer the focus of the D.

Also, why is it that, when Dirk is out he's the go to scoring option in the fourth, but when Dirk is healthy he's the fourth option in the fourth (behind Terry and Stackhouse)?

[JES12]

I think every different Mav fan has a different opinion or insight into this. Some are just baffled about it and have no clue; I'm one of them.

Josh Howard was not like that last year. Last year, he played well in the 4th. This season I noticed Josh Howard tuning Avery out and of course, the closer to the end of the game, the more Avery wants to have control & ISOs which is more Dirk style than Howard style.

While many mav fans have said they would trade Howard for Redd, Maggette, Allen, Carter, Miller, that schitzo in sacto, or even mr cucussion in Charlotte I am totally opposed to straight up trades of those players because I think Howard just needs a new voice in the 2nd half. I'm hoping Carlilse can be that person and take advantage of the talent we have on this team.

[JapanAir21]

I think every different Mav fan has a different opinion or insight into this. Some are just baffled about it and have no clue; I'm one of them.

Josh Howard was not like that last year. Last year, he played well in the 4th. This season I noticed Josh Howard tuning Avery out and of course, the closer to the end of the game, the more Avery wants to have control & ISOs which is more Dirk style than Howard style.

While many mav fans have said they would trade Howard for Redd, Maggette, Allen, Carter, Miller, that schitzo in sacto, or even mr cucussion in Charlotte I am totally opposed to straight up trades of those players because I think Howard just needs a new voice in the 2nd half. I'm hoping Carlilse can be that person and take advantage of the talent we have on this team.

I share the sentiments you do. I won't mind seeing Josh Howard stick around for a little while to see how he does with a new coach, maybe it wasn't Kidd, maybe it was Avery. If need be, there's always the trade deadline, his stock is about as low as it'll ever be, I can't see it going much lower next season.

[Teffer10]

Most fans want to blame Avery for Howard's faults and everyone elses.
Howard is a ball hog who doesn't like to pass and becomes a lazy jump shooter during long stretches of the game. And don't get me started on his poor shot selection. He puts up a lot of shots to get his points and in the first half of a game there isn't as much pressure. Dirk and Josh both seem to have to have the ball in their hands to initiate their offense which makes both of them great individual players but not so great team players.

That is one of the reasons why the Kidd trade didn't work out.

Maybe the coach makes a difference, but I see it more as a personnel problem.

On another note, what message is Cuban sending to the team if he doesn't trade Josh?
Go ahead and have your marajuana parties and do what you want instead of listen to the coach during a critical part of the season. If we lose the games, we will just get rid of the coach since you don't want to listen to him.

Howard needs to go for that reason first, the selfish play second, and being a head case at times third, and low IQ fourth.

Just my opinion.

[DDansby123]

Most fans want to blame Avery for Howard's faults and everyone elses.
Howard is a ball hog who doesn't like to pass and becomes a lazy jump shooter during long stretches of the game. He puts up a lot of shots to get his points and in the first half of a game there isn't as much pressure. Dirk and Josh both seem to have to have the ball in their hands to initiate their offense which makes both of them great individual players but not so great team players.

Avery certainly played a role, but one of Josh's biggest problems as a Mav has been his level of concentration and his tendency to let his emotions swing from wild overreactions to (as we saw in the postseason) outright apathy.

That is one of the reasons why the Kidd trade didn't work out.

I think Josh had his own little pity party after Devin left, instead of realizing that Kidd could've made him look like a complete stud had he worked at it. My two cents.

On another note, what message is Cuban sending to the team if he doesn't trade Josh?
Go ahead and have your marajuana parties and do what you want instead of listen to the coach during a critical part of the season. If we lose the games, we will just get rid of the coach since you don't want to listen to him.

This is a really good point, but I expect this from Cuban. I mean, what kind of message does it send when your team chokes away a 2-game lead in the Finals in one of the biggest collapses in NBA history...and the personnel pretty much remains EXACTLY the same from the front office down to the roster? What kind of message does it send when your team wins 67 games in the regular season the next year and then collapses AGAIN in the playoffs...and the personnel AGAIN remains EXACTLY the same?

I mean, honestly, which people in this organization are being held accountable for its problems? Anyone? I guess now it's Avery, and possibly Devin Harris. Too little, too late.

[SaintofKillers]

I don't think it's an issue about not getting touches; whenever he gets the ball in the second half you can tell he doesn't want to shoot it and if he can't throw the "hot potato" to someone else, he would jack up a really flat attempt.

I think he's what I'd like to call a "confidence shooter" -- when he's very, very confident everything will go in and when he loses it (something that happens frequently and is still a mystery to us why) he's useless on every single category. That's why I miss the old Howard; he wasn't a good scorer as he is now but you can bet that he'll contribute in more ways than one when his shot is off be it defense, rebounding, free throw opportunities, and such.

[DDansby123]

^ That's why I keep bringing up the notion of acquiring good, young role players. I think if we can get in a situation where we had a bunch of "Josh Howards" from two or three years ago, we'd be taking a step forward....even if those guys never get above Howard's level from two seasons ago.

[Teffer10]

-= original quote snipped =-



This is a really good point, but I expect this from Cuban. I mean, what kind of message does it send when your team chokes away a 2-game lead in the Finals in one of the biggest collapses in NBA history...and the personnel pretty much remains EXACTLY the same from the front office down to the roster? What kind of message does it send when your team wins 67 games in the regular season the next year and then collapses AGAIN in the playoffs...and the personnel AGAIN remains EXACTLY the same?

I mean, honestly, which people in this organization are being held accountable for its problems? Anyone? I guess now it's Avery, and possibly Devin Harris. Too little, too late.

This is where I do think Avery is a little at fault. I think he convinced Donnie and Mark that those issues could be addressed internally by his control of the players.

As I've mentioned before though, Avery is guilty of setting an unrealistic bar for this team when he took a group of players to the finals that really had no business being there. They played way over their heads to get that far and we have Avery to thank for that imo.
However, everyone seemed to take a good realistic look at this team and the doubts began to set in since the GSW series.

If Cuban and Donnie think that a coaching change is going to repair this team, there is going to be a lot of disappointed fans this next season.

[Teffer10]

I don't think it's an issue about not getting touches; whenever he gets the ball in the second half you can tell he doesn't want to shoot it and if he can't throw the "hot potato" to someone else, he would jack up a really flat attempt.

I think he's what I'd like to call a "confidence shooter" -- when he's very, very confident everything will go in and when he loses it (something that happens frequently and is still a mystery to us why) he's useless on every single category. That's why I miss the old Howard; he wasn't a good scorer as he is now but you can bet that he'll contribute in more ways than one when his shot is off be it defense, rebounding, free throw opportunities, and such.

Josh should have been the #3 guy on this team and the FO should have made the moves to get a legit #2 instead of attempting to put Terry or Stack in that position.

The resigning of Stack and Terry were the biggest mistakes the FO made and what ultimately led to the desparate move to trade for Kidd. A legit #2 scoring option at SG that didn't kill us on defense would have made this team much better. That would have allowed Harris and Howard to play to their strengths with limited pressure on offense.

[dirkforpres]

Josh was grea this season until Devin left... I think that really shook him... Hes gotta go.

[ppp000]

My thoughts on Josh:

-he's ALWAYS been primarily a first half scorer and then the second half has always been a hit or miss with him, so those 3 or 4 game sampling is one of those "hits" with Josh, I wouldn't say they mean something significant.

-Josh does defer to Dirk in the second half, but Avery already tried the whole thing of trying to make Josh a 1b scoring option the first half of the season and when his jumper was falling, Josh had great numbers but the team was very inconsistent and Avery went back to Dirk in the second halves (again part of the idea to find a second threat alongside Dirk, which was exposed in the GS series when no one else could step up and dominate when Dirk sucked that series)

-If you look at some of the statistics provided by Dallas Morning News (sorry no link, but if you search hard enough, it shold be easy enough to find):
Josh over the years has increasingly become a jump shooter
Josh over the years has ALWAYS been a first half scorer, second half not so much.

All I know is that the team currently constructed with Josh, Terry, and Stack as the "second/third options" is NOT good enough.
Josh is the THIRD option on a champion ship team
Terry is the bench player
and Stack is deep in the rotation.
But the Mavs try to make them the scoring threats alongside Dirk to failure as we have already seen over and over.

[JES12]

My thoughts on Josh:

-he's ALWAYS been primarily a first half scorer and then the second half has always been a hit or miss with him, so those 3 or 4 game sampling is one of those "hits" with Josh, I wouldn't say they mean something significant.

Were you only a mav fan in 2007-08?

Edit: I saw your comment on the Dallas Morning News stuff, but I can't find anything to back that up with. Any links would help. The 4th quarter in the Avery era has always been Terry & Dirk, so ti would not surprise me that all other 13 players would be lower in the 4th, but I seem to remember Howard making a lot more shots in the 3rd & 4th quarter in years past. If he has alway's just been a 1st half player, he certainly expanded it this year cuz there never was this much of a margin.

[ppp000]

-= original quote snipped =-

Were you only a mav fan in 2007-08?

Edit: I saw your comment on the Dallas Morning News stuff, but I can't find anything to back that up with. Any links would help. The 4th quarter in the Avery era has always been Terry & Dirk, so ti would not surprise me that all other 13 players would be lower in the 4th, but I seem to remember Howard making a lot more shots in the 3rd & 4th quarter in years past. If he has alway's just been a 1st half player, he certainly expanded it this year cuz there never was this much of a margin.

No, Ive been a mav fan for a long time..too long maybe for my own sanity

But yes you are right in that Josh hasn't been completely a ghost in the second halves as he has been this season. But he has always been a "fast starter" in comparison and never one to take over games in the second half. And the totem pole back then was Dirk then Terry and even Stack in that regard.

The article Im referring too is from the DMN mavs blog, maybe search under "Josh Howard"
Anyways it had great stats showing his dramatic conversion to a jumpshooter over the years and it may or may not be in that same entry, but stats on his first half vs second half production. If I can find it I will post it..when I get the time.