Why JHo might not be the right fit for our team.

[itsgotime]

Ok, this may be common knowledge out there, but JHo does not fit with Dirk while someone like Artest, Marion or JSmith does. Why? JHo does not defend 4's at all. Reason this is a concern is because Damp cannot play quick 4's and neither can Dirk.

In the NO series the problem was that they had 2 mobile big men, so making Damp play the better of the two big men (for foul trouble reasons on Dirk) in West decreased Damp's abilities on that end of the court. It was a necessity type of move, or so the coach thought.

One of the two types needed to replace JHo at the 3 position as has been said a big mobile 3 type in the mold of Artest/Marion/JSmith. Those three players seem to be just out of reach for us (barring their teams' management valuation being way off from their fans.). Question is are there any other players like that out there? I don't know at all as the last few years I've been watching Mavs/Spurs/Rockets games exclusively (Battier available for what we have?).

The other type is one we already have in Bass. The mobile SF/PF type IMO could have been the switch up type move that would have put a kink in that NO series. Bass played West the best out of any of our big men this year. He can't be ignored on the O side of the ball either.

This switch of Bass in the starting lineup could have been the same type of coaching move as the LBrown switch of Prince in the Det lineup a few years ago in the playoffs. Imagine, Damp being able to box out and defend Chandler while Bass does his best on West to slow him down. All that while Dirk is on Peja and JHo on Peterson to help Kidd out with Paul.

What does all this mean? Well, I suggest that if we can't get that player in Marion/Artest/JSmith (unlikely at this point, but IMO the best option) that we stand pat (well, other than getting rid of Stack once and for all) and introduce Bass into the starting lineup. The biggest problem I see stemming from this is ball handling. This leaves us pretty vulnerable to a press as our PG spot is the only position that has the handles to break it.

Are we also as fans happy with seeing another offseason go by without any change to our team's core (is the Kidd deal enough to satisfy our malcontent? I still believe Kidd could be what we need.)? There's big question marks up and down this roster after the playoffs last year and this whole year. Is this the most likely outcome anyway after hearing what is coming out of the FO's mouth?

If we make no moves at all this offseason I will be looking for drastic changes in minutes played and replacements for the expirings we currently have (this sounds like it's already the plan). I hope I'm wrong and JHo and Dirk can coexsist, but it looks less likely to me.

[your_dallas_mavericks]

I think you are onto something...

[dirkforpres]

While it would help to have Howard guarding some PF's, I am more worried and disappointed in his offensive game than I am with his defense and who he guards. Nobody can go 3-18 or 5-15 in the 2nd half of the season and play well next to Dirk or anybody in the league

[itsgotime]

Based on his previous years of stepping up his game in the playoffs I give Howard a mulligan for his O and frankly his D (Peja went off on him...). This is the same mulligan many gave Dirk for his last years playoff bust. Now I say this if we can't move Josh for something that fits better.

If moved to another team, Josh will be a great contributor, as long as that team plays him for his strengths and there is a good nucleus that he fits. TOR doesn't have pieces that fit our needs and it looks like Artest is going to stay in Sac much to my dismay. Miami seems to want to stick with Marion so that doesn't help the situation either. JSmith is going to be resigned by Atlanta, this I'm almost certain of.

The next level down would be to acquire a Shane Battier type player and replace the 2 spot with an upgrade (since Battier is a downgrade from Josh). The only other player that I can think of that would fit this mold would be Nocioni. He's gettable, but that price tag is pretty high and other than Kidd I haven't seen what Chi wants off our team (I believe the FO is going to at least try till mid next season to make Kidd work here).

Can anyone else with more around the NBA knowledge give me a comparable to Battier? I'm looking for a package deal of JET and Bass for this player and someone semicomparable to JET. Unless Stack and Bass is enough value for such a player. Is Battier available for such a package?

If we get this more defensive 3 then we can turn our sights on trading Josh for a cusp Allstar 2. Someone in the mold of JRichardson. He will defend and will put up second scoring option numbers. He's a big body that is quick enough to guard multiple types of players. He's also a high flyer which will help Kidd get a few alleyoops up.

If there's any way to get those two players on our team, I'm looking for that. I give up any combination of players to make this happen between Josh, JET, Stack, Bass, Damp, S&T DGeorge, and EJ. If Damp is needed in a trade then I need to get at least a likely contributing backup C back in the deal. I believe we can get Diop which the trade and Diop weakens our C rotation, but is servicable enough.

Another note, Redd only fits here if we have one of the big time 3's listed in Marion, Artest and JSmith. I can't give up that much defense without being able to hopefully cover for it.

[HMFFL]

Don't under estimate our defense, as we gave up the second least amount of points per game among the Western Conference teams, so it gets older hearing people talk like we are as soft as the rest of our opponents. While Dirk and Eric won't make the all defensive team I still don't think it's necessary to talk about them as if they are among the softest players.

New Orleans 95.6
Dallas 95.9

[itsgotime]

I'm not sure where you're getting that our team sucks on defense from what I posted. I'm saying that the fit would be better with a different player that can guard the 4 position from the 3.

Most of the time Damp and Dirk are fine because Dirk plays the opposite teams worst offensive player between the 4 and 5 spot. When those two spots have strong players, Dirk can't keep up(Is this what's in dispute?). That's why I'm proposing either a change in the starters or a change in the players (and I prefer the change in players).

I'm not giving up chopped liver in my list of guys that I believe might be able to get us these two players, hence I'm asking for high contributing players. If that cannot be achieved, then our best bet is to stand pat and hope for the best out of what we got.

With the list of players being long, and us not able to give up 1st round draft picks then I believe the deals would have to have multiple teams involved. Miami wants good young players, Milwaukee wants a fair deal that doesn't screw their team up. Sacramento seems to want everything under the sun or nothing at all. This is our dilemma as Mavs fans and I don't see us actually reaching the goals as laid out.

If we can, I'm completely happy, if not, I will hope and hope and hope that these guys return to their finals appearance form with a different coach and his different philosophy (and X's and O's).

[HMFFL]

I'd like to see Josh Howard adapt to Jason Kidd, if he's unable to do that we need to consider moving him for a piece(s) that will move this team closer to a championship, because I see no reason why we should continue with starters that can't play well with one of the greatest of all time. I saw a different Josh once Jason arrived here and I'm not just talking about his game. Even with his personal problems throughout the season it was as if he didn't care anymore. Blame Avery!

I'm open to moving Josh Howard for not even a proven all-star caliber player. It would be useful for us to even acquire a couple pieces for our bench and possibly a second round pick for Josh. Don't take that out of context because I'm talking about proven role players. I just don't see us acquiring Marion, Jason Richardson or anyone on that level for Josh Howard.

It's very laughable to think that Dallas even has a shot at Josh Smith. While I tried to overlook it, I just think it's odd that some Dallas fans believe he's coming here. His jumper is still very iffy, he doesn't really have a 3 ball, and he's far from being a small forward. It doesn't make any sense to me unless Dirk is moved for him because he's probably the only starter Dallas has that Atlanta would want. Brandon Bass should draw some interest but Atlanta doesn't jump on that if Josh is involved.

Ron Artest would bring the fire and passion this team could use at the 3. I see him being an issue like Josh Howard when it comes to playing with Jason Kidd. I'm probably just over analyzing things but for some reason I see Josh and Ron's style being common.

[Pointguard01]

BASS IS NOT STARTING AT SF. It wont work. End of story.

[arkuo]

well, andrei kirilenko fits the bill... if utah decides to tweak a bit after their playoff loss, then he might be the 1st one out as he's the one with the biggest salary.... AK can guard quick forwards too.... just dont know what it would take for utah to agree...

[arkuo]

It's very laughable to think that Dallas even has a shot at Josh Smith. While I tried to overlook it, I just think it's odd that some Dallas fans believe he's coming here. His jumper is still very iffy, he doesn't really have a 3 ball, and he's far from being a small forward. It doesn't make any sense to me unless Dirk is moved for him because he's probably the only starter Dallas has that Atlanta would want. Brandon Bass should draw some interest but Atlanta doesn't jump on that if Josh is involved.

HMFFL, do you think this would work out with atlanta?

dirk, josh

for

joe johnson, josh smith, al horford


would that be fair for atlanta or is it to the mavs' favor?

C- dampier
PF- horford
SF- smith
SG- johnson
PG- kidd

[Pointguard01]

Atlanta has no reason to do that. They would laugh at us.

[arkuo]

well, if artest, marion and j.smith are all untouchable this offseason, then i guess trading for AK will be our best bet... and he might still be untouchable too... if worse comes to worst, then dallas might just have to stick it out the its present lineup and just see what happens...

what worries me going into a rebuilding process is that we might just end up like chicago... a good collection of youth but still cant win in the EAST... hinrich, gordon, tyrus thomas, noah, deng and nocioni are all nice young players... the same young players we get through drafts.. yes the bulls have a ton of them but they cant win anything in a conference with lesser competition...

and what is amazing is that all 30 NBA teams are all clearing cap space for the 2011 free agency... are they all sure they could sign lebron james?? most big name free agents sign with their teams anyway...

lets say we get a good collection of youth from trading dirk, josh and kidd for draft picks... we'd be like chicago... and we have tons of cap space and if there's no big name free agent to sign with dallas, then were screwed... pinning your hopes on signing a big free agent 3 years from now is not a good idea... at least for me... coz every other team right now is clearing cap space thinking they could sign lebron in 2011....

[Pointguard01]

well, if artest, marion and j.smith are all untouchable this offseason, then i guess trading for AK will be our best bet... and he might still be untouchable too... if worse comes to worst, then dallas might just have to stick it out the its present lineup and just see what happens...

AK is porbably just as hard to get as we have nothing Utah wants. I doubt they swap Terry+ for AK47.

what worries me going into a rebuilding process is that we might just end up like chicago... a good collection of youth but still cant win in the EAST... hinrich, gordon, tyrus thomas, noah, deng and nocioni are all nice young players... the same young players we get through drafts.. yes the bulls have a ton of them but they cant win anything in a conference with lesser competition...

The Bulls made plenty of mistakes, and had the chance to be a contender by going after KG or Gasol, but instead they kept their cap sapce and went after Ben Wallace (what?). Chicago had a perfect opportunity to be a team that is young and still have a chance to compete with a big man like either one of them, but instead they didnt. I wont even go into signing Ben Wallace to that outrageous contract, resigning Nocioni, a role player, to 8+million a year to come off the bench, ect...

and what is amazing is that all 30 NBA teams are all clearing cap space for the 2011 free agency... are they all sure they could sign lebron james?? most big name free agents sign with their teams anyway...

lets say we get a good collection of youth from trading dirk, josh and kidd for draft picks... we'd be like chicago... and we have tons of cap space and if there's no big name free agent to sign with dallas, then were screwed... pinning your hopes on signing a big free agent 3 years from now is not a good idea... at least for me... coz every other team right now is clearing cap space thinking they could sign lebron in 2011....

Its not about signing someone with cap space, but its about having the options to. The season before you get the cap space, you can use your expiring contracts to bring in talent. Or when you have cap space that offseason, you can trade with another team (See Charlotte with J-Rich) and give them trade exceptions. Its not just about outright signing players. Plus, those "cap" plans always fall through by the time it comes around.

[itsgotime]

BASS IS NOT STARTING AT SF. It wont work. End of story.

It's not the end of the story because you didn't give any reason why it won't work. Ok, so Bass doesn't start as a SF then, he starts as our PF and Dirk starts as our SF. Same thing, Dirk still guards the lesser offensive player between the 3, 4 or 5 as opposed to the lesser 4, 5. Carlisle was talking to Dirk about a Bird style of play anyway.

The probability of it happening is small, but saying it won't work without disproving it is horse crap, unless you have the magic crystal ball that shows you this not working in the future. One things for sure, we've had large problems with both personnel and coaching, not just coaching.

AK would be good too, he's not on the level with Marion and Artest. He is on the level with JHo though, but he is more defensive than offensive which we can't give up JHo for less offense based on the likelihood of not being able to trade JET+ for a JRich type. JET, Stack and Bass worth JRich? Most likely not.

[Pointguard01]

It's not the end of the story because you didn't give any reason why it won't work. Ok, so Bass doesn't start as a SF then, he starts as our PF and Dirk starts as our SF. Same thing, Dirk still guards the lesser offensive player between the 3, 4 or 5 as opposed to the lesser 4, 5. Carlisle was talking to Dirk about a Bird style of play anyway.

The probability of it happening is small, but saying it won't work without disproving it is horse crap, unless you have the magic crystal ball that shows you this not working in the future. One things for sure, we've had large problems with both personnel and coaching, not just coaching.

I didnt give reaosning because I have explained it plenty of times before because this topic has been brought up numerous times. At the end of the day, I dont want Dirk guarded by SFs plain and simple. Obviously nt against the Tmac or Bowen's, but also not against even Peja.

If you start Bass, whether you call him a SF or PF, all teams will treat Bass as the PF and Dirk as the SF. Dirk will have a quicker player on him, and while its easy to say, "Oh just post Dirk up", thats alot harder with a guys like Dampier & Bass on the floor, rather than have 3 guys who can shoot the 3. Yes Bass can hit the 15-17 foot jumper, but thats a huge difference spreading the floor that extra 5-8 feet. Dirk would be settling for jumpers non-stop IMO and I think it would be a complete failure offensively.

Defensively, it could work against some teams like SA where Dirk could guard Bowen, but against many team Dirk would tire himself out running around screens trying to stay with a guy like Peja. And Bass couldnt handle a guy like Duncan down low so consistently, so even against SA, this strategy might not work.

Basically I dont think this is something you do. You can play it at times and stretches of games to throw something different at teams because it can be effective in certain situatins, but you dont start this team and this isnt your best lineup.

[itsgotime]

There are some aspects that you are talking about that are correct. However, how can you say you don't want the other teams 3 guarding Dirk when that has been the strategy for guarding Dirk since the Finals loss? Are you watching the games?

With this change in lineup you require every team's 3 to guard Dirk because if they don't then Bass will destroy that 3. That means Peja guards Dirk. The old and getting older Bowen guards Dirk. And yes, at times you will have Kirilenko/Artest/Marion guarding Dirk. If he's a real MVP, he can work around that.

Dirk needs to be the jumpshooter on this team while we use post players to bang in the middle. You do know Dirk will not bang in the middle right? What you do is run a play to get him open, not open to get the pass and square his defender up, open to get a shot, or pump fake, one dribble to the side and jumpshot. You know, like Bird used to do.

If that doesn't work you give it to Bass in the middle and let him work his guy like he did in the playoffs. We have problems with games turning into a layup drill against us. My proposal is that is because of Dirk having the Bradley effect on opposing guards.

Remember when we had Bradley as our C and while he showed to have a decent amount of blocks, that's because the opposing players would see him as a poster waiting to happen. They would lick their chops trying to find the best angle to beat their man to the hole so they could posterize Shawn.

That is the same thing with Dirk. No one is afraid of him, and they actually gain confidence when they see him under the rim. They know he's gonna swipe at the ball low, pick up the ticky tack foul and score. That needs to be a thing of the past in Dallas or I don't see much for the future.

Against SA, Dirk guards Oberto and just concentrates on boxing him out (he's pretty good at that). Damp guards Duncan while Bass guards Bowen and is developed into the roamer who is looking for the opportunity to come from the side and block a layup. He's the offball defender we want (this might be a stretch, but he seems to have the work ethic to be able make it work enough at critical times).

[Pointguard01]

There are some aspects that you are talking about that are correct. However, how can you say you don't want the other teams 3 guarding Dirk when that has been the strategy for guarding Dirk since the Finals loss? Are you watching the games?

Yes, they do. But giving the team the opportunity by basically playing Dirk as the SF is just dumb. When teams guard Dirk with their SF, that means they put a PF on Josh Howard. That brings a PF out of the lane and gives Howard a mismatch. Plus with 3 guys on the perimeter who can hit the 3, Dirk can take advantage by posting up.

With this change in lineup you require every team's 3 to guard Dirk because if they don't then Bass will destroy that 3. That means Peja guards Dirk. The old and getting older Bowen guards Dirk. And yes, at times you will have Kirilenko/Artest/Marion guarding Dirk. If he's a real MVP, he can work around that.

Dirk's best assets is 1) His quickness to beat the opponent off the dribble 95% off the time & 2) Bringing a bigman out of the paint to allow guys to penetrate to the basket. Thats why Devin Harris was perfect here in Dallas. Yes his shooting is wonderful, but little things like that, only able to take advantage of when Dirk is the PF, would not be an advantage of Dirk is the SF and Bass is the PF.

Yea, Dirk can beat a Peja off the dribble, but he would have to worry about both West & Chandler at the rim, apose to just beating West off the dribble and worrying about just Chandler. Big difference, as Dirk already struggles finishing with 1 big guy..

Dirk needs to be the jumpshooter on this team while we use post players to bang in the middle. You do know Dirk will not bang in the middle right? What you do is run a play to get him open, not open to get the pass and square his defender up, open to get a shot, or pump fake, one dribble to the side and jumpshot. You know, like Bird used to do.

Dirk is NOT Bird. He has many characteristics, but isnt nearly the passer or ball-handler, so trying to put him on the perimeter is not the same. I wish it was, but it isnt. Yes I would love a banger inside, but the only way we can do that is if we go after a center who can do that for us. Maybe Jermaine O'Neal? I dont know if he's worth it with his injury risk, or if there are any other options, but Dirk is a PF.

If that doesn't work you give it to Bass in the middle and let him work his guy like he did in the playoffs. We have problems with games turning into a layup drill against us. My proposal is that is because of Dirk having the Bradley effect on opposing guards.

I dont know that Bass is any more intimidating at the rim. Bass has the athleticism, but also lacks 5inches that Dirk has. Im not sure there's much of a difference. Bass is the same height at guys like Tmac, Kobe, ect that will be driving that lane. He may pose a better option defending the paint than Dirk obviously, but not to make a difference IMO.

Plus, while I really like Bass, I dont know if we can consistently expect him to be able to score against guys like Duncan, Boozer, Odom, West, ect. He's still young and inconsistent.

Against SA, Dirk guards Oberto and just concentrates on boxing him out (he's pretty good at that). Damp guards Duncan while Bass guards Bowen and is developed into the roamer who is looking for the opportunity to come from the side and block a layup. He's the offball defender we want (this might be a stretch, but he seems to have the work ethic to be able make it work enough at critical times).

Eh, I dont think that works. At the end of the day, Bowen still would get open looks at the 3 with Bass "roaming", Duncan would still take it at Dampier, and we have no one to stop Ginobli and Parker from penetrating. And then offensively, I think we are worse off as Bass couldnt post Duncan up (and wouldnt get the calls taking him to the rim) and Dirk against Bowen, with less spacing on the floor hurts us too.

Like I said, I dont like Bass in the starting role.

[DDansby123]

A few of us have said for years that we need a SF who's in the 6'8" range so he can defend SFs and PFs if necessary. Of course, those of us proposing that have also agreed that a C who can play PF is a necessity also. When it comes to surrounding Dirk with talent, you've got to have pieces that can defend multiple positions and are versatile on that end of the court.

We have a C who plays one position and a SF who defends his position and SMALLER players. That's not really helping Dirk, IMO. Given where the league is right now, we need the SF/PF and PF/C surrounding Dirk. That's the only way we have any shot at all of defending the pick-and-roll, which I maintain is our biggest liability defensively.

I didn't see much of the NOH-SAS series, but I did catch some of the 4th last night. I saw that the Spurs were playing Duncan and Horry in the frontcourt, with Horry defending Chandler...and the Spurs dominated the glass playing small. It's the mobility that frontcourt provides that helped them rebound and defend the pick-and-roll (from the very little that I saw), and it's that mobility that we lack in our frontcourt that will continue to kill us if we don't make changes.

[arkuo]

dont you guys see it? as bad as it may sound, but dirk is the root of our problems.... we have to build a team with extra active centers and small forwards who could run back on D and cut the slack for dirk... we wouldnt be having that problem if we had a two-way PF in dirk... im not blaming the uberman as he has his unique skill set that others dont have.. and i might just be pointing out the obvious here, but its indeed something that we are having problems about...

[your_dallas_mavericks]

Maybe we just need a special FO to build a team around our special uberman...