Iverson to Dallas

[itsgotime]

I thought it would be better to have this conversation in the Dallas forum rather than continuing the thread in the trade forum. Here's my weigh-in, for what it's worth, on bringing Iverson to Dallas.

I really think the best time to have made such a trade would have been right after hiring RC. First, I think a new coach with a decently churned roster is about as good as a new coach can get (mind you, we have churned the bottom of the roster as much as a team can).

If RC had the mindset to put together an offense with Kidd, AI, Nocioni, Dirk, Diop, Bass, Nene and Wright (my most likely 8 man rotation) from the beginning of his tenure then he would have done a pretty good job of it. He would have had a full preseason to tweak everything and we would be ready for the beginning of the season.

I don't believe now would be a bad time to make a trade, but the window is closing very fast on that. We still would have the beginning of the season to make things work.

As far as how Kidd and AI would work out playing together? What I think is that AI would help gap the scoring deficiency left by Kidd and Diop. I don't think Howard has that ability. I picture more of a Rip Hamilton role for AI while Kidd is on the court (more of, not completely). Then when Kidd sits down, AI gets to play more of his style by dominating the ball.

All in all, AI to Dallas is more star power than we have now, and IMO stars are who win in this league. Maybe having 3 of the top players on finals losing teams puts us over the hump. Dirk needs his shots, but I'm trying to see who else is going to get the ball all that much, which leaves him plenty of opportunity.

*edit: This post is mostly in response to the Ecuhus trade, The Usual Suspects.

[dirkforpres]

So from what im seeing, you are saying we somehow acquire Iverson and Nocioni and only lose Howard and Dampier? I wouldnt hold your breath.

[sefant77]

Next Offseason with the MLE, done. Of course i also take Ron-Ron.

Then Kidd 1-2 Years Extension and Damp + Filler to the Bulls for Hinrich + Noci.

Kidd/Hinrich/Barea
AI/Terry/Wright
Josh/Noci/Williams
Dirk/Bass
Diop/whatever

Cuban should have still enough money

[myconsumerclub]

ai is a no in a big way

[jlp0807]

ai is a no in a big way

+1

[itsgotime]

So from what im seeing, you are saying we somehow acquire Iverson and Nocioni and only lose Howard and Dampier? I wouldnt hold your breath.

Either you don't like to read, or you read before I edited which was about 5 minutes after I posted.

Once again, this is in response to Ecuhus trade post in the trades and transactions forum titled The Usual Suspects.

I've never actually liked AI's game, however I can see where he could help us get to where we want to be during Dirk's tenure here. Too bad others don't feel that way.

[JES12]

ai is a no in a big way

+2

The link to the trade is:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=844052

Iverson IN NO WAY can play off the ball like Hamilton.....offensively or defensivley. That is the most ridiculous statement I read all day!

In this trade, we turn:
Damp's 2 year $23.5 mil deal into Nene's 4 year $43.4 mil deal
Stack's 2 yr $9.0 mil deal to Nocioni's 4 yr $29.0 mil deal (not counting 5th year team option)
Terry's 4 year $33.14 mil deal to Iverson's 1 year $20.84 mil deal
Howard in to Chucky Atkins

Here are the facts of this deal:
-Iverson jacks up 72% of his shots before 16 seconds have come off the clock. By doing this he does not play team ball and he forces us to HAVE TO have the best rebounders. Iverson is a statewhore who IS NOT clutch.

-Terry plays as a team in a team. He takes the wide open shots or the bail out shots when no one else has a better shot or he finds the ball in his hands at the end of the posession. 46% of his shots are in the last 8 seconds....and concidering that we don't reach the last 8 seconds as often as the first 16, he is very OPPOSITE of the shoot 1st PG known as Iverson.

-Iverson is shorter than Terry making him even worst of a 2 guard. He is too selfish & trigger happy to be a PG.

-Iverson demands the ball more than Terry and with Kidd, that is a NO GO!

-Iverson will NOT get 41.8 minutes with Kidd as the PG and needing a bigger SG like Wright, Williams, Green, George, Howard (or Nocioni) on the floor.
Here are Iverson's info at Terry's 31.5 MPG

...........................Iverson....................Terry
Age........................33...........................31
PPG.......................19.9........................15.5
RPG........................2.3.........................2.5
APG........................5.3 (not w/Kidd).........3.2
SPG........................1.5..........................1.1
BPG........................0.1..........................0.2
FG%........................45.8.......................46.7
FT%........................80.9........................85.7
3pt%.......................34.5................... ....37.5
Turnovers...............2.25...........................1.12
clutch 8 sec..............28%..........................46%


It's hard to convince me to trade Terry for Iverson alone given the talent on this team, but to trade Howard who is a) at least eqaul talent b) younger c) at a position of need and d) not a rental, is just all out ridiculous!!!!!!!!

Then combine that with the crap loads of 4 year + contracts we assume......just an obvious no brainer! Absolutley AWFUL trade for Dallas. Gag! Puke! Gag! Puke again!

Now before anyone takes what I said and twists it, I did not say I would be totally against an Iverson - Terry based swap. Based off talent (clutch & timing), character, need and working as a team, I'd take Terry. When it comes to the contract, I'd take Iverson. Take it for what it's worth, but if Terry expired by 2010, I would not even trade Terry for Iverson.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=844122

Here is a trade for Iverson I would support even though I don't really want Iverson...and it uses 3 of the 4 teams here.

Dallas out: Terry, Stackhouse, George, rights to Foster, 3 mil cash
Dallas in: Iverson
Why? 2010 cap space

Denver out: Iverson
Denver in: Terry, Buckner, George
Why: The get out of lux tax this year (Saves $6 mil x 2 = $12 mil) but add's Terry's $9 mil next year (Still about $10 mil under tax if they waive Atkins) and a very useful player next to Smith, Melo, Martin and Nene (Buck is expiring and George can be convinced to opt out). Plus they get their roster up this year.
[Edit for the Maverick thread: Denver saves 12 mil this year, gets under the tax and gets a bonus 4 mil from the tax payers which pays for Terry's 2009-10 salary and 7 of his 2010-11 salary, and of course, his last year is only 5 mil guaranteed. The kicker is Martin & Smith expire 2011 and Nene & Anthony expire along with Terry in 2012. Terry is a position of need for them Terry-Smith-Anthony-Martin-Nene is as fine of a starting 5 you can get with all contracts ending near the same time]

Memphis out: Buckner
Memphis in: Stackhouse, Rights to Foster, 3 mil cash
Why: Memphis has plenty of room to add the additional 3 mil this year (which Dallas adds in the form of cash) and they get Foster as incentive.

If anyone here says they'd want Iverson on this team (regardless of who we give up) they are saying they don't want Kidd at PG and a Kidd system in Dallas. I'd be willing to abolish it all and hope for the best if we can go into summer 2010 with Dirk, Howard, Diop and Bass.

[Darren]

The most I would give should be Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse and some draft rights. No more.
Iverson is on his last leg. I do not want to count on him that much. That means I won't trade you Josh Howard. Erick Dampier? It depends.

[itsgotime]

Well, I don't fully disagree with the argument against, however I also know it isn't working with Dirk, Terry, Howard and Stack. It hasn't for many years, and it's going to continue not working (at least to achieve the goal they put up for themselves, a championship). Even if AI doesn't work out, we have the ability for the group of Kidd, AI and Dirk to run it's course and start pretty fresh after our 2010 pick is given to NJ.

I also don't see where all our offense is going to come from watching Dirk not at all work for his shot, or to even get the ball. He's looked disinterested in the preseason, and if he continues that trend through the season, we're in bigger trouble (that's actually with or without AI). I will also reiterate, Josh will not make up the points that are being left out by having Kidd and Diop/Damp on the floor.

IMO we have a team in need of a real shakeup, but we can't start rebuilding until we've given NJ their 2010 pick, so in order to stay the most competitive, we keep adding aging superstars until it's time to rebuild.

One other thing, thank you for returning the ridiculous statement of believing AI is no better than JET. It's the same as comparing Dirk with Al Jefferson at this point in their careers. AI has lead two of his teams to the Finals, he was the leader of the charge, let that sink in. That is what we want from Kidd, Dirk and AI on this team. When push comes to shove, it's the stars and superstars that win in the playoffs, not the JETs, Howards or Stackhouses of the NBA.

I believe both incarnations of the team makes it to the playoffs, I also believe the team with AI has the better chance at going further. At this point is this team's life, that should be all that matters.

[JES12]

One other thing, thank you for returning the ridiculous statement of believing AI is no better than JET.

I said it was ridiculous thinking that a person who HAS TO have the ball in his hands to be effective, like AI, could be anything like Hamilton next to Kidd who will have the ball in his hands. The second time I used that word was saying it was ridiculous to trade, the better, younger player that fits our need for the older rental of a ball hog.

As far as AI being better than Terry, I never said that was ridiculous. If they were playing 1 on 1, my money is on Iverson every single time. In a 5 on 5, my money is on Terry's team to go further than Iverson's team every time....that is the key difference.

[itsgotime]

One other thing, thank you for returning the ridiculous statement of believing AI is no better than JET.

I said it was ridiculous thinking that a person who HAS TO have the ball in his hands to be effective, like AI, could be anything like Hamilton next to Kidd who will have the ball in his hands. The second time I used that word was saying it was ridiculous to trade, the better, younger player that fits our need for the older rental of a ball hog.

As far as AI being better than Terry, I never said that was ridiculous. If they were playing 1 on 1, my money is on Iverson every single time. In a 5 on 5, my money is on Terry's team to go further than Iverson's team every time....that is the key difference.

So you go with the Terry led team over the AI led team? I put my house on that!

[myconsumerclub]

Look AI is death to his current team while with Denver they will never go anywhere or be anything worth while so why would we want a stat whore chucker like AI? Terry's contract isn't going to allow us to trade him anyway. The team is rebuilding with youth the proper way because we learned our lesson that aged vets don't work out at the SG and SF when young run and gun athletic types can show them up. So we went out and got some of those to add to our core and augment a weakness.

The core of Dirk Diop Bass Howard Kidd Dampier Terry is now looking to be enhanced by new members of the rotation in Wright Green and possibly Singleton. RAT should make the team and Williams already has but looks like a project with potential at this point.

Who we need to get rid of via trade is Stack George and JJB. We need to start looking for a young athletic PG for Kidd to groom and we need to develop the yout that we have. Having to many wings isn't a bad thing if you can use one to trade for a need.

If stars win how come Denver sucks so bad?

[itsgotime]

On Denver, who other than AI is or has been a superstar? Who is a star? Carmelo is probably a star, but he's quite unproven.

I haven't said that AI is THE answer, I'm disputing the thought that AI wouldn't make this team better. I believe the lineup with the trade that was proposed is a much better playoff team than what we have now. I can't see why others don't see that themselves. Kidd is a much better player than any other star AI has played with, Dirk 10x that statement. On the flip side, AI and Kidd are better than any other duo that Dirk has played with and Dirk and AI the same for Kidd. They all have been leaders of finals appearing teams.

BTW, getting rid of Stack, JET, Howard and Damp makes this team younger and more athletic while keeping plenty of veteran leadership intact. We don't get rid of all the "great" youth you keep referring to, we just put them in a position to better develop while not having to rely on them and their young player mistakes as much.

The trade makes us a better team, and after the 2010 season when we give away our draft pick we should be in a pretty good situation to trade or let go of most everyone else on the team to start our rebuilding process.

[jlp0807]

The trade absolutely does not make us a better team. Kidd is great when he has spot up shooters and at-the-rim finishers. AI is only good when he dribbles for twenty seconds and shoots some fadeaway or drives. They are two totally different players. Not to mention the fact that Dirk would get about 10 less touches per game.

JET is not that old and was the most athletic guy on the team during the playoffs. That is, if you measure athletic by not sitting around and taking jumpshots. Like Josh should have done, JET actually drove to the rim.

Moreover, you have to have three point shooting in a well balanced offense. If you get rid of JET and Stack (who Im not much of a fan of and realize that his % sucks), then who is going to spot up and shoot threes? JET is also the best 3pt shooter we have.

Denver was a decent team until they got Iverson. Now, they will not even make the playoffs. Phili started sucking, then traded Iverson and made the playoffs and almost made the 2nd round.

Lets not forget the guy is 6'-maybe. Who is he going to guard? Every other shooting guard would drop 50 on him (75 for Kobe). Kidd cant guard the 2 either, except when we play Utah and New Orleans.

This is a horrible trade for Dallas. I want no part of AI.

[JES12]

One other thing, thank you for returning the ridiculous statement of believing AI is no better than JET.

I said it was ridiculous thinking that a person who HAS TO have the ball in his hands to be effective, like AI, could be anything like Hamilton next to Kidd who will have the ball in his hands. The second time I used that word was saying it was ridiculous to trade, the better, younger player that fits our need for the older rental of a ball hog.

As far as AI being better than Terry, I never said that was ridiculous. If they were playing 1 on 1, my money is on Iverson every single time. In a 5 on 5, my money is on Terry's team to go further than Iverson's team every time....that is the key difference.

So you go with the Terry led team over the AI led team? I put my house on that!

Lets do it....Terry lead team vs an Iverson lead team is like a 5 on 1 game. I'd take that bet in a heartbeat!!!!!!!!!


Three points and then I'm done with this topic....

1) Iverson would have no place on this team with Kidd at the point. Iverson at the SG scares me and you could already chalk up several losses to Iverson 3 for 30 nights at the point.

2) Anyone who thinks having an aging volume shooter at the point...or wanting someone smaller than Terry at the 2 is BETTER that what we currently have is off their rocker. That same person proves it again if they think Carmelo is not the best "superstar" Iverson ever played with. Melo, Camby, Nene, Martin, Smith, Klieza, Carter, Iverson & Najera is enough pure talent to get out of the 1st round, but the problem on that team was, is and always will be the same on any team where Iverson is more than a backup.

3) This is SOOOOOOOOOOOO WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

The trade makes us a better team, and after the 2010 season when we give away our draft pick we should be in a pretty good situation to trade or let go of most everyone else on the team to start our rebuilding process

First, the trade makes us worse IMMEDIATLY if Howard is involved. I, haheem, "I can't see why others don't see that themselves."

In 2010, we would have an injury proned, unproven 28yo center Nene, a 28yo defensive only center Diop, a 31yo SF Shaggy (whos shot selection is the same likings of Dirk...just not as many), and an ETO on 32yo Dirk consuming over $46 mil of our cap. If Bass resigns and we renounce every other player, that is $52 mil tied up in a team without the most important piece.....the PG!!!!!!! You have a group of 30 +/- 2 year old players with NO PG and no cap room to sign one!!!!!! Waive Dirk goodbye! You build around the PG, not the other way around. With that core of players, we would be STUCK in mediocricy til 2012.....operative word is STUCK. There is no team worth watchinbg that year. That would be a HORRIBLE team to watch. At least with Terry, you have a PG to play with Dirk, Howard, Diop and Bass for the 2010-11 season with enough room to sign a SG.

IVERSON, IN NO WAY, IS THE ANSWER OR WHAT THIS TEAM NEEDS!!!!!!!!!!!! I DON"T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU CAN'T SEE THAT!!!!!!!!...........ESPECIALLY IF THE COST IS HOWARD + TERRY + ABSORBTION OF UNWANTED CONTRACTS!

[itsgotime]

I disagree and I'm not off my rocker. Looks like the one getting upset about a discussion needs to step back a bit. We're all friends here, no need to act a fool to make a point.

I do believe AI, Nocioni, Nene and Banks is a better option than Damp, Josh, JET and Stack with the rest of what we have to put on the floor.

BTW, JET has lead a team, so has AI. I think their team successes while they were "the man" speak for themselves.

[JES12]

Okay...we will have to agree to disagree.....respectfully agree to disagree.

That "birds eye view" is what got us in this mess with Kidd to begin with and I think that same mindframe kills us for years to come.

Nene* / Diop
Dirk / Bass
Nocioni / Williams
Iverson / Wright
Kidd / Banks
*if healthy for once in a non-contract year

That may be more pure talent, but unless Iverson all of a sudden learns how to 1) Play without the ball AND 2) accept backup role if we need a taller 2 for defense, then we MAY be better during flashes. The question then becomes, how do we make Nocioni and Dirk not be redundant on their shot selection. Then we need to accept that the best wing defender we have is Wright. If all that comes out good, then we MAY have a chance to get to the 2nd round this year and this year only before Iverson tries to act like he's the man again. We will lose both of them this offseason, be stuck with Banks as our PG and be looking good for all that cap space in the 2012-13 season.

But you are right, If all those come together, we may have a blowout game or two before we get blown out ourselves.

[sefant77]

Cuban will anyway never pull of again during this season such a big trade, no way. Just when everyhting (and really everything) goes completly wrong.

They will look if they can make a steal with Stack + small fillers. Like for a Mike Miller Type of player (i know the Wolves dont plan to trade him) and thats it. Or maybe with luck a PG of the future-steal like a unhappy Sergio Rodriguez.

And i just dont see a team going for a big S&T deal for Iverson. I think some teams will try to play the MLE/Title-Card next offseason and if the Mavs dont find some better stuff they also should go for it.

But i would still prefer to stick the MLE or a big part in the ass of a player like Sergio Rodriguez (unfornutably with team-optionnext year) instead of Allen Iverson. Btw the Philly Team and their defense brought AI to the finals, not the opposit way.

[Captain_Obvious]

Our MLE is already away if we can retain Bass next offseason. And if Green breaks out we will likely have to choose between them.

[Darren]

AI is not a good fit to Dallas. I can see Damp + Stack for Shaq before such deal.