For those who are confused.

DIRKtheGREAT · Post #1 » by **DIRKtheGREAT** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:16 am

I dont understand YTF the whole team cant get on the same page in the SAME game!!!!!! And whats it gonna take to have a bad team with a star (Redd, Kaman, Al Jeff.) to give us one for trash like LA got with Memphis....WHY DOES NO ONE HELP US OUT?!?!?!?!?

GermanFan120 · Post #2 » by **GermanFan120** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:17 am

my answer to you is: blame cuban, no one wants to help him

DIRKtheGREAT · Post #3 » by **DIRKtheGREAT** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:30 am

Like JERRY WEST (Lakers legend) traded Gasol to LA, maybe Donnie should go to cleavland and trade us LeBron :evil:

But yes, i agree with you..because of Cubans rep. other GMs dont wanna help us out. But thats just how much more impressive he has been at the helm (just imagine: we could be in the knicks position)

JES12 · Post #4 » by **JES12** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:05 am

Everyone keeps referencing the Gasol trade, but what people forget is that they gave their 19th pick (Crittenton), two future picks, a well picked 2nd rounder (Marc Gasol) and a huge expiring filler in Kwame.

This front office squanders our picks as evident in the Walker trade (2004), the Dampier trade (2005 & 2007), drafting Ager (2006) and the Kidd trade (2008 & 2010).

Our FO needs much better scouters and not be so lenient on our trading chips.

DEEP3CL · Post #5 » by **DEEP3CL** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:14 am

JES12 wrote:Everyone keeps referencing the Gasol trade, but what people forget is that they gave their 19th pick (Crittenton), two future picks, a well picked 2nd rounder (Marc Gasol) and a huge expiring filler in Kwame.

This front office squanders our picks as evident in the Walker trade (2004), the Dampier trade (2005 & 2007), drafting Ager (2006) and the Kidd trade (2008 & 2010).

Our FO needs much better scouters and not be so lenient on our trading chips.

Thanks JES12 for actually letting people know it just wasn't a give away on our part either. Marc Gasol was scouted by us for a couple of years before we even drafted him, we held his rights for like two years before he even decided to come to the league.Now look at him pretty decent for a rookie, I can't believe people still think we just stole from Memphis.

DEEP3CL · Post #6 » by **DEEP3CL** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:16 am

DIRKtheGREAT wrote:Like JERRY WEST (Lakers legend) traded Gasol to LA

You do realize Jerry wasn't working for Memphis when that trade went down right ? Everybody keeps hollering Jerry did that trade, which is purely FALSE.

DIRKtheGREAT · Post #7 » by **DIRKtheGREAT** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:25 am

So when did he "start" working for them...?

microfib4thewin · Post #8 » by **microfib4thewin** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:04 am

West started working for the Grizz in 01, he stepped down because he was tired of team management in 07.

JD45 · Post #9 » by **JD45** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:25 pm

DIRKtheGREAT wrote:I dont understand YTF the whole team cant get on the same page in the SAME game!!!!!! And whats it gonna take to have a bad team with a star (Redd, Kaman, Al Jeff.) to give us one for trash like LA got with Memphis....WHY DOES NO ONE HELP US OUT?!?!?!?!?

Those type of trades happen once every few years. And by giving up their picks in the Kidd trade, the Mavs have no ammo to get it done anymore.

The Mavs have their team. They are stuck with it for a few years.

itsgotime · Post #10 » by **itsgotime** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:31 pm

DEEP3CL wrote:
JES12 wrote:Everyone keeps referencing the Gasol trade, but what people forget is that they gave their 19th pick (Crittenton), two future picks, a well picked 2nd rounder (Marc Gasol) and a huge expiring filler in Kwame.

This front office squanders our picks as evident in the Walker trade (2004), the Dampier trade (2005 & 2007), drafting Ager (2006) and the Kidd trade (2008 & 2010).

Our FO needs much better scouters and not be so lenient on our trading chips.
Thanks JES12 for actually letting people know it just wasn't a give away on our part either. Marc Gasol was scouted by us for a couple of years before we even drafted him, we held his rights for like two years before he even decided to come to the league.Now look at him pretty decent for a rookie, I can't believe people still think we just stole from Memphis.

Wrong. It was a steal regardless. Gasol is at the very least an All-Star quality player, that's at the least. Please don't tell me that a first round pick from the Lakers is going to amount to anything for the next 3-4 years much less two first rounders (they may prove to be what the Lakers themselves need, but not a rebuilding team who needs top prospects). Marc may prove to be a really good backup in the league, but when Mem is going for win now, please don't tell me that he will be a starter.

Crittendon is also a career backup. So with the 2 draft picks lets say they pick up 2 rotation players, that makes it a trade of a bunch of possible (not probable) role players and cap space for a definite All-Star. The fact that every other team was calling it a steal (Actually, I'm thinking the majority of Lakers fans would call it the same) says that Mem could have gotten a vastly better packaged deal for Gasol.

Deus · Post #11 » by **Deus** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:45 pm

#1 draft picks are over-rated. Unless you're selecting in the top 10, you have an ass hats chance of drafting anyone worth a damn.

Its nice to have old friends to do you a favor..

microfib4thewin · Post #12 » by **microfib4thewin** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:37 pm

1st round picks are nothing if the coaching staff doesn't know how to develop their players. The Lakers didn't get to where they are at now solely because of the Gasol trade, but also because they turned their late 1st rounders into solid role players.

I do agree that a guy of Gasol's caliber should get a lottery pick, but ask yourself this, what rebuilding team would take on Gasol's contract? Just like the Artest trade, when you trade a star player from a non contending team, what that team asks for is capspace and picks, no other teams had an expiring contract needed to complete the deal or they simply don't want to pay Gasol 15 and 16 mil for the next two years. Lakers stepped up to the plate, other teams weren't willing to give cap relief and offer journeyman packages like Noc + Tyrus, and that was it.

itsgotime · Post #13 » by **itsgotime** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:36 pm

microfib, you haven't chimed in on whether or not you think it's a steal, but regardless of what you said, that trade was still a steal. Lakers fans should be patting themselves on the back for being able to get a steal of a deal done, not trying to defend the usefulness of the value given out.

JES12 · Post #14 » by **JES12** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:08 pm

I never said it wasn't a steal, buut that trade had 5 assets (#19, 2 1sts, Marc, & cap relief) of which Dallas has none except Stack's semi-expiring. My ppoint was, in order for this type of deal to occur in Dallas, our FO needs to stop squandering picks and hire better scouts becuase Maurice Ager and so much fear of drafting in the 1st round that you give away our picks (we should have recieved some in tha Kidd trade) is/has killed our team and any chance of such a trade.

microfib4thewin · Post #15 » by **microfib4thewin** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:32 pm

Didn't I already say Gasol deserves a lottery pick? Lakers paid very little in terms of present value, but the assets they offered are something the Grizz is looking for. You also forgot that with Gasol's contract you are looking to pay the luxury tax, and most owners do not want to go that far. That was why Chicago was unable to acquire him despite their numerous contacts with Memphis.

DEEP3CL · Post #16 » by **DEEP3CL** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:41 pm

JES12 wrote:I never said it wasn't a steal, but that trade had 5 assets (#19, 2 1sts, Marc, & cap relief) of which Dallas has none except Stack's semi-expiring. My point was, in order for this type of deal to occur in Dallas, our FO needs to stop squandering picks and hire better scouts because Maurice Ager and so much fear of drafting in the 1st round that you give away our picks (we should have received some in tha Kidd trade) is/has killed our team and any chance of such a trade.

Again JES12 your on the money, your correlation to the facts are simply undisputed and I don't know how much more you can do to make these guys understand. I think one of the posters misunderstood my thinking in say we didn't steal from Memphis, we gave them assets. Which many from around the nation still feel wasn't enough. But in today's NBA cap relief and draft picks no matter where they fall are your most basic bargaining chips.

DEEP3CL · Post #17 » by **DEEP3CL** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:50 pm

itsgotime wrote:microfib, you haven't chimed in on whether or not you think it's a steal, but regardless of what you said, that trade was still a steal. Lakers fans should be patting themselves on the back for being able to get a steal of a deal done, not trying to defend the usefulness of the value given out.

I agree with you 100% on that itsgotime, but that's the reality of it basically. We've had to defend the value because people miss the point of view from Memphis stand point. Remember the Grizz was suppose to be sold but Heisley hasn't found a subtle owner. He was trying to make the team as attractive as possible for the next owner when ever he finds one. As far as to what we gave in return.......yeah it wasn't the most dynamic package but it represented what Memphis needed as related to finances and the prospect of building long term.

itsgotime · Post #18 » by **itsgotime** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:47 pm

JES12 wrote:I never said it wasn't a steal, buut that trade had 5 assets (#19, 2 1sts, Marc, & cap relief) of which Dallas has none except Stack's semi-expiring. My ppoint was, in order for this type of deal to occur in Dallas, our FO needs to stop squandering picks and hire better scouts becuase Maurice Ager and so much fear of drafting in the 1st round that you give away our picks (we should have recieved some in tha Kidd trade) is/has killed our team and any chance of such a trade.

I wasn't talking about your post, I was talking about the reply. Our FO thought all that was needed was Kidd and they went for broke to make it happen. They gave up tons of assets to get 1 guy. Dirk had a part in getting Kidd here too, so it's not fully (mostly, not fully) on them either. Getting Kidd here turned out not to be the answer.

They fired Avery, turns out Dirk most likely had a hand in that decision as well. Got a new coach that would agree to coach the team the way they wanted to play in RC. Turns out there's a chance it might not have even been Avery.

They said at the beginning of the offseason that they would be busy making trades and leaked out info that a "surprise" was on the way. Apparently that surprise was supposed to be Artest to Dallas that was extremely close to being done. Didn't happen. The FO doesn't have a plan B, C or D. They come out of the offseason with basically the same team and try to sell it as gold.

At this point fans know waaaaay better than that and after seeing what they have seen in the first 7 games they're giving the FO all they got. Very much rightfully so.

BTW, good for Dirk for flexing his muscle to make things he wants happen on this team.

To answer DEEP3CL, you may not have said specifically the words "it wasn't a steal of a deal", but your post was heavily implying it. That is all I replied to, nothing more.

I don't usually reply to posts that I agree with so, JES12, take comfort in the fact that I agree with much of what you say. I do have differing opinions at times and we will hash those out like we have in the past. I wasn't specific in who I was calling out in my first post, so to JES12 I apologize if my words seemed to be directed at you.

crucifixx · Post #19 » by **crucifixx** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:53 pm

I don't think Kidd is at fault here. He has been the most consistent performer this season. He averages almost a triple double every night. Made a lot of steals, hit a couple threes. He's doing much better than what Devin could've done. Maybe it's just the Mavs that are declining in general.

itsgotime · Post #20 » by **itsgotime** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:10 am

Kidd is definitely not the problem we have and I really don't agree with JES12 in that Devin is and was a better on court player than Kidd. However, the PG spot was one of the least of our worries as an organization with DH there for now and in the future. Our problem was the 2 guard spot and no scoring at the 5 spot.

We got cute and dropped the ball on that trade. It turns out to be a lateral move in a different direction. Where Devin was a great drive to the hoop player and a great defender, Kidd is an excellent floor general, infectious ball distributor (seriously, one year ago would we have seen JET pass to Stack and Stack pass back to JET on a fast break?) and a great defender as well.

We're either gonna have to suck it up and play this out for 2 years till NJ uses our pick or blow it up and get picks to overshadow that 2010 fact. However, in order to stay competitive in the West and at least keep a playoff spot we're gonna need to make trades for these players that all have been brain damaged from all the abuse they've taken at the end of the last 3 seasons.

The players we trade will be just as good as they were for us when they are traded away because they get a fresh start on optimism. That is why I don't really feel like budging on their value to us. There may come a time when that won't be the case, but for now, they are still a playoff team in the West based on the talent they have and I don't mind watching them in the playoffs for 2 more years until it's time to completely blow it up and rebuild.