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All-Time Cards Team of Last 25 Years

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All-Time Cards Team of Last 25 Years 

Post#1 » by mizzoupacers » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:02 pm

I'm a sucker for this kind of thing:

link

Fun read, and a good exercise at vivaelbirdos.com today.

Here's my team (one player per year, and you can't use the same guy more than once, and they have to have actually played in the role you put them in):

1B: McGwire cheated; he's out. Hey, it's MY team. I'll go with El Hombre '06.

2B: Fernando Vina, 2001. His best season with the Cardinals (.303 BA, .775 OPS). Regretfully, this means I can't find a spot on the team for Tommy Herr.

3B: I agree with Rolen '04.

SS: I DEFINITELY agree with Ozzie Smith '87. No apologies to Edgar Renteria necessary. By 1987 Ozzie had actually declined slightly from his defensive peak in the early '80s, but he was still far and away the best defensive player in MLB. And this was his best season at the plate. I will go to my grave believing he should have been NL MVP, and the only reason he wasn't is because sports journalists are idiots who don't realize that defense is just as important as offense. Really, now...in 1987 Ozzie was the best fielder in the game, the best player on the best team in the league, and on offense he was a table-setter with an on-base pct. of nearly .400 who scored a lot of runs and also drove in a lot of runs. That's more valuable than a corner outfielder who hits 40 home runs in a hitter's park for a last-place team. It just is. I don't put too much stock in individual awards, but if I did, I would call the 1987 NL MVP award one of the greatest traveshammockeries in world history.

In my time there have been three Cardinals with truly supernatural abilities: Lou Brock (base-running), Ozzie (fielding), and Pujols (hitting). And of the three, I think Ozzie was the most supernatural. Best defensive player ever. End of story.

LF: I'm not prepared to call Pujols a left fielder, so I'll go with Lonnie Smith, 1982. Spark-plug lead-off man for a World Championship team who hit .307, had an OBP of .381 and an OPS of .815, scored 120 runs, and stole 68 bases. And he stole home in the '82 World Series, but the ump missed the call.

CF: Agree with Edmonds 2000.

RF: Agree with Brian Jordan, but I'll say '98 instead of '96. Jordan's numbers in '98 were 25 homers, 91 RBI, .316 BA, and an OPS of .902. Even so, I think that George Hendrick was better, but necessity dictates that I take other players from Hendrick's years. I also wish I could find a spot somehow for Larry Walker.

C: Agree with Darrell Porter, '83. We've had a long run of superb defensive catchers. But when's the last time one of them could hit? Porter '83 had 15 home runs and a .794 OPS--not spectacular, but not sucky either.

Rotation:

Agree wholeheartedly with John Tudor '85. Still the most incredible season I've ever seen a Cards pitcher have (sadly, I was too young to absorb much of the '68 season). Tudor started out 1-7 that year with an ERA over 3. Then for the last four months he went 20-1 with an ERA that must have been well south of 1.50, since he ended the season at 1.93. What a monster season...and he didn't win the Cy Young because Doc Gooden was even better. (Doc Gooden in 1985 was the best pitcher I have ever seen in my life.)

Carpenter '05 is another no-brainer. Second-best season I've ever seen by a Cardinals starter.

Agree with Bob Tewksbury '92. Tewksbury was sort of John Tudor Lite, a finesse pitcher with amazingly good control (at least at his peak). In 1992 Tewksbury pitcher 233 innings, yet struck out only 91 hitters. And he went 16-5 with a 2.16 ERA.

Agree also that Andujar and Morris have to be in the starting rotation, both were clearly among the five best starters of the past 25 years. But for various reasons I'm going with Andujar '84 (20-14, 3.34 ERA) although he had a better year in '82, and Morris '03 (17-9, 3.42) although his best year was 2001.

Sorry I can't squeeze in Joe Magrane '89 (18-9, 2.91 ERA).

Bench:

Oquendo, 1988. Gotta have the Secret Weapon in there, and '88 is pretty slim pickins.

Tom Pagnozzi, 1990. 1990 was the worst season the Cardinals have had in the last 25 years, so bad that Whitey Herzog quit in disgust midway through it. As backup catcher that year, Pags hit .277 in 220 at bats, although with absolutely no power. The following season, 1991, he moved into the starting lineup and won the first of his three Gold Gloves.

Milt Thompson, 1991. Thompson was one of the better fourth outfielders we've had in the last 25 years, and in '91 he hit .307 in 326 at bats and had an OPS of .810.

Willie McGee, 1997. There's no freaking way I'm leaving probably my favorite Cardinal of all time off this team. But, you can't budge Edmonds from center field. Solution: McGee was our main guy off the bench for a few seasons after he came back from exile with those California teams. He was better in '96, but still solid in '97, hitting .300 in 300 at bats.

Placido Polanco, 1999. A sentimental favorite. Hit .277 in 220 at bats.

Eduardo Perez, 2002. I still need a power-hitting pinch-hitter who can play the infield corners, and in '02 Perez hit 10 home runs. (He was better the following year, with 11 home runs and an OPS of .843.)

Bullpen:

Tom Henke, 1995. The default choice for '95, the second-worst season the Cards have had in the last 25 years. Henke had a good year, with 36 saves and a 1.82 ERA. Bruce Sutter had a better year in 1984, but the rules are that you only get to choose one closer for the bullpen.

Agree with Rick Horton '86. A solid set-up guy who was also a good spot starter.

Agree also with Mike Perez '93, just looking at his numbers, but I swear I don't even remember the guy. What is wrong with me, am I getting senile?

Dan Quisenberry, 1989. I'd rather take Magrane from the '89 team, but the rotation is too crowded. So Quiz and his funky submarine pitch are in. In '89 he appeared in 63 games as a set-up man and posted a 2.64 ERA.

T. J. Mathews, 1996. Nothing spectacular, but I like the 80 K's in 83 1/3 innings.

John Habyan, 1994. Hey, you DO have to take somebody from '94. I can't agree with Gerald Perry--the guy only batted 77 times all season. Habyan's not really any better--apparently he struck out nearly a batter per inning and had a 3.23 ERA, but I don't remember it at all. :lol:

There you go, guys, I wasted all afternoon figuring my team out. Somebody else's turn.
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Post#2 » by boogiesdad » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:02 pm

No Vince Coleman??????
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Post#3 » by bigboy1234 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:26 am

Starters
C: Darrell Porter '83 (the weakest position player but had to have a catcher)
1B: Albert Pujols '06
2B: Jose Oquendo '89
SS: Ozzie Smith '87
3B: Scott Rolen '04
CF: Jim Edmonds '04
CF: Willie McGee '85
CF: Ray Lankford '92

Bench
1B: Mark McGwire '98
3B: Fernando Tatis '99
SS: Edgar Renteria '03
1B: Keith Hernandez '82
LF: Lonnie Smith '82
3B: Terry Pendleton '89
2B: Tom Herr '85

Rotation
SP: John Tudor '85
SP: Chris Carpenter '06
SP: Darryl Kile '01
SP: Matt Morris '01

Bullpen
RP: Bruce Sutter '84
RP: Todd Worrell '86


I really didn't feel like finding so many pitchers so I have a 6 pitcher team, yeah thats right, Ima rebel. I have 4 empty roster spots that would go for some more pitchers but didn't feel like looking anymore.

Since there were so many good CFs for us the past 25 years, I put 3 CFs in the outfield. Oh, and also broke the rules of the "bench players", I just put the remaining best years/players.

Not trying to brag but my team would kill any other "25 year roster" that can be made for that Cardinals in the past 25 years. :P (Although I don't have a backup catcher, I'm sure I could get somebody to learn it.)
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Post#4 » by bigboy1234 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:44 am

2nd Baseman Arguement
To me it's clearly between Oquendo and Herr.

Oquendo is very very underrated with the glove. He and Ozzie probably were the best SS and 2nd ever to pair together.

So there you have the top defensive players in the NL over the last 20 years. Amazingly, Grace
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Post#5 » by mizzoupacers » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:39 pm

Here are notable performances I left out in trying to pick only one guy per season, no guy more than once, and filling out a 25-man roster using the positions they actually played (no outfield consisting of three center fielders, etc.):

1982: Andujar pitched 265 2/3 innings and had an ERA of 2.47. His record was 15-10, because he didn't get much run support. He threw 5 shutouts. Gene Tenace also makes a strong case as a backup catcher--he had a .936 OPS in 124 at bats.

1983: None. That's why I stuck Darrell Porter here. Although honestly you could pick Ozzie for just about any season in the 1980s, every year he blew everyone else away in defensive stats like range factor, total assists, etc.

1984: Sutter pitched a huge number of innings for a closer (122 2/3) and had 45 saves, a WHIP of 1.08, and a 1.54 ERA.

1985: Lots of good choices here, as this was the best team we've had in the last 25 years. Willie McGee was NL MVP, with 216 hits, 114 runs scored, 56 steals, and a .353 batting average. This was Herr's best season, he hit .302 and had 110 RBI (on only 8 HR!). Andujar won 21 games, and Danny Cox went 18-9 with a 2.88 ERA. Vince Coleman stole 110 bases. But Tudor's otherworldly season wins out.

1986: Todd Worrell had 36 saves, a 2.08 ERA, and was both Rolaids winner and the NL Rookie of the Year.

1987: Jack Clark missed 31 games and still hit 35 homers and drove in 106 runs. He had a 1.056 OPS. Also notable for being Terry Pendleton's best season with the Cardinals, man I loved watching him play.

1988: a disappointing season. In a bizarre twist, Joe Magrane won the NL ERA title [2.18] despite a win-loss record of 5-9. He was hurt part of the year, and just barely pitched enough innings to qualify for the ERA title.

1989: Magrane had an excellent season as noted previously. The offense was led by Pedro Guerrero, who hit 17/117/.311 in the triple crown categories and had an .868 OPS.

1990: No one. Horrible year.

1991: Lee Smith had 47 saves with a 2.34 ERA and 1.14 WHIP. The Cardinals have been blessed with a lot of good closers over the last 25 years.

1992: Really nobody, although Mike Perez had a 1.84 ERA and 1.10 WHIP in 93 innings pitched.

1993: Again, really nobody, but Gerald Perry put up a .950 OPS in about 130 plate appearances (more than 30 of them walks) usually as a pinch-hitter.

1994: No one. Hence my selection of the immortal John Habyan to my all-time team.

1995: Everyone except Henke stunk. On the heels of '94, '95 got Joe Torre fired as manager midway through the season.

1996: La Russa's first year, and we made the postseason, but there are surprisingly few standout individual statistics. Andy Benes won 18 games, but with a fairly mediocre ERA. Willie McGee hit .307 off the bench.

1997: Ray Lankford's best year (31/98/.295, .996 OPS). It's easy to forget how well he hit for a few seasons there in the late '90s.

1998: Well McGwire hit 70 home runs and had a 1.222 OPS. Ridickilous numbers, because they were fake. Lankford had another good year.

1999: McGwire: 65 HR, 147 RBI, 1.121 OPS. And this was the Year of Fernando Tatis--he hit 34 HR and had a .957 OPS, then never did much of anything ever again. Also noteworthy: Kent Bottenfield went 18-7 (with a 3.97 ERA), just enough to allow us to trade him after the season for Jim Edmonds in one of the greatest heists of the twentieth century.

2000: Darryl Kile won 20 games. More spectacular, though, was Will Clark, who carried us to the postseason with a 1.081 OPS in 171 at bats after we picked him up at the trade deadline to replace an injured McGwire. This was also Rick Ankiel's one full season in the majors...so far. :wink: Maybe some day that story will have a happy ending. Ankiel had hit his sixth HR in Memphis and hiked his average to .215 last time I checked!

2001: Edmonds had a big year. J.D. Drew posted a 1.027 OPS, although in typical fashion he missed 53 games with assorted bruised hangnails and sprained eyelashes. But the real notable of 2001: Albert Pujols. This was his rookie year. 37/130/.329, with a 1.013 OPS. And every season he's had since has been noteworthy too.

2002: Big years for Pujols and Edmonds, and Matt Morris had probably his best season (22-8, 3.16 ERA).

2003: Edgar Renteria had a .874 OPS and drove in 100 runs, pretty good for a shortstop. And this was Rolen's first full season with the Cardinals (28 HR, 104 RBI, .910 OPS).

2004: Remember what it was like when we could still really hit?!? Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds were all on the short list of NL MVP candidates, although none of them won it. Larry Walker joined the team at the trade deadline and put up a .953 OPS in 150 at bats. Two other guys in their first season in St. Louis, Reggie Sanders and Tony Womack, had very productive years, as did Renteria. And with all that hitting, it was also probably Isringhausen's best season as a Cardinal--47 saves and a 1.04 WHIP.

2005: Pujols finally won an MVP award. But Carpenter won the Cy and was my choice for this season.

2006: Pujols carried last year's team, and he was my choice. But I don't want to overlook Chris Duncan and his .952 OPS and 22 HR in 280 at bats.
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Post#6 » by bigboy1234 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:15 pm

2002: Big years for Pujols and Edmonds, and Matt Morris had probably his best season (22-8, 3.16 ERA).

Huh, me thinky you made a mistake here, those are Matty's 2001 stats, and that was Pujols' worse season ever.

1997: Ray Lankford's best year (31/98/.295, .996 OPS). It's easy to forget how well he hit for a few seasons there in the late '90s.

Me thinks 1992 was Lankford's best season. He had 130 more ABs in '92 and played better defense.

Also, I think your looking too much at the "averages" when you mention players like Tenace, Duncan, Perry.
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Post#7 » by mizzoupacers » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:29 pm

I messed up on Morris, you are right those are his 2001 stats. Good catch. But even though it may have been Pujols' "worst" season, I think it's still worth a mention when a guy finishes in the league's top ten in about a kajillion different hitting stats. He also finished second in the league MVP vote, although that's purely subjective.

Lankford 1997 vs. 1992--it's not just the rate stats. He had 11 more HR, and he drew 23 more walks. He also scored more runs and drove more runs in. And the rate differences are pretty significant: his OBP was 40 points higher in 1997, and his slugging pct. was 105 points higher--that's a combined OPS difference of 145 points, .996 in 1997 vs. .851 in 1992. I'm sure his defense had slipped a bit, and yes he deserves credit for playing in 20 more games in 1992, but I'm still going to go with 1997.

I probably am giving too much credit to Tenace, Perry, and Duncan, but I did attempt to keep their seasons in perspective--interesting stats in limited playing time. I wouldn't have mentioned them if part of the "game" was not to come up with bench players too.
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Post#8 » by bigboy1234 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:30 pm

Lankford 1997 vs. 1992--it's not just the rate stats. He had 11 more HR, and he drew 23 more walks. He also scored more runs and drove more runs in. And the rate differences are pretty significant: his OBP was 40 points higher in 1997, and his slugging pct. was 105 points higher--that's a combined OPS difference of 145 points, .996 in 1997 vs. .851 in 1992. I'm sure his defense had slipped a bit, and yes he deserves credit for playing in 20 more games in 1992, but I'm still going to go with 1997.

Yeah, I would say in '97 he was clearly the better hitter, although in '92 he had 15 more TB. But is seems it '97 he was pretty bad in the field, compared to '92 when he was above average. I'll agree to disagree with you though, because it's very debatable in my opinion.
I probably am giving too much credit to Tenace, Perry, and Duncan, but I did attempt to keep their seasons in perspective--interesting stats in limited playing time. I wouldn't have mentioned them if part of the "game" was not to come up with bench players too.

Yeah, as you can tell I ignored those part of the "rules" cuz I didn't like them. Just like only picking one player from each year, too complicated for me, I just list the best years I thought for the each player, mucho easier for me. 8)
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Post#9 » by mizzoupacers » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:13 pm

Hey Bigboy, do you know of any good Internet sites for old fielding stats? I found all that stuff a few months ago when I was writing something about Ozzie Smith, but I couldn't find it again for this thread.
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Post#10 » by bigboy1234 » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:25 am

mizzoupacers wrote:Hey Bigboy, do you know of any good Internet sites for old fielding stats? I found all that stuff a few months ago when I was writing something about Ozzie Smith, but I couldn't find it again for this thread.

Really thats something thats hard to find, I mean currently I use FRAR, FRAA, Rate2 which can all be found on the a players DT Card at BP.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/lankfra01.php

You can also you some basic stats like FP % and RF at baseball-reference.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lankfra01.shtml

Then theres also Bill James' book where you can get his defensive Win Shares for a player, but as far as I know that has to be bought. It would probably be a good purchase but I just haven't got it yet.

Then you just gotta start taking the word of people of how good of a fielder they were.
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Post#11 » by mizzoupacers » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:09 am

Thanks, that should help, especially for current stats.

Earlier today I was just trying to find a site that carries league leaders stats for fielding categories back to 1982. Couldn't find one anywhere. I found it somewhere a few months ago on the Web, but today I Googled on every term I could think of, and got nowhere. I might have to go back through my old posts and see if I can find it again.
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Post#12 » by boogiesdad » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:02 am

The 2 big problems I see are McGee an no respect for his MVP

Coleman steals over a 100 bases and doesnt get an Honorable Mention?
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Post#13 » by mizzoupacers » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:24 am

I gave both Vince and Willie honorable mentions--hey, McGee is my all-time favorite player, and the '85 team is the best Cardinals team of my lifetime IMO:

mizzoupacers wrote:Here are notable performances I left out in trying to pick only one guy per season, no guy more than once, and filling out a 25-man roster using the positions they actually played (no outfield consisting of three center fielders, etc.) ...

1985: Lots of good choices here, as this was the best team we've had in the last 25 years. Willie McGee was NL MVP, with 216 hits, 114 runs scored, 56 steals, and a .353 batting average. This was Herr's best season, he hit .302 and had 110 RBI (on only 8 HR!). Andujar won 21 games, and Danny Cox went 18-9 with a 2.88 ERA. Vince Coleman stole 110 bases. But Tudor's otherworldly season wins out.


But the deal is, you can only take one guy per year for your team. So I took Tudor, because no Cardinals pitcher has had a better season in the last 25 years than him in 1985.

Come on man, I want to see YOUR team. :)
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Post#14 » by VAProfessor » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:55 pm

[quote="bigboy1234"]2nd Baseman Arguement
To me it's clearly between Oquendo and Herr.

Oquendo is very very underrated with the glove. He and Ozzie probably were the best SS and 2nd ever to pair together.
[quote]

I have to disagree with this part, IMO Herr and Ozzie were the best SS/2B duo to pair together but that

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