Brew Jays @ Bluers (June 10-12) - Beer sellers vs cellar dwellers

[Hottie McShotty]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/video/totally-idiotic-joseph-blasts-blue-jays-disastrous-pick-off-play/

I agree with Joseph. That was an idiotic play that cost us the game.

[Randle McMurphy]

Totally idiotic play by Kirk earlier in the game that cost us big time. I bet Moreno would have played that better. Kirk is awful behind the plate.

Kirk is probably the best defensive catcher in baseball, but sure.

Great trade by Atkins. lol.

Trading the 3rd best catcher in the organization for the team's most valuable player by a mile this year? Yeah, I'd say so. Probably the biggest steal since franchise has made in a trade since Josh Donaldson.

[Hottie McShotty]

Kirk is probably the best defensive catcher in baseball, but sure.

Great trade by Atkins. lol.

Trading the 3rd best catcher in the organization for the team's most valuable player by a mile this year? Yeah, I'd say so. Probably the biggest steal since franchise has made in a trade since Josh Donaldson.

lol sure buddy. keep defending the trade and keep defending Atkins.

[Hottie McShotty]

Teoscar has 17 HRs this season. Springer, Bichette and Vladdy have combined for 16 HRs.

Way to build a contender Atkins! lol.

[Hottie McShotty]

at least Horwitz is doing well. Watch Schneider the clown take him out of the lead off spot while he's hot and put Schneider back there next game.

[Randle McMurphy]

Great trade by Atkins. lol.

Trading the 3rd best catcher in the organization for the team's most valuable player by a mile this year? Yeah, I'd say so. Probably the biggest steal since franchise has made in a trade since Josh Donaldson.

lol sure buddy. keep defending the trade and keep defending Atkins.

Read on Twitter

This needs defending suddenly? lol

Even Kirk has been worth more fWAR this season than that scrub Moreno while being a backup and not hitting all season. Never seen such attachment for this bad a player before.

[Hottie McShotty]

Yes, let's judge this trade after 68 games. The season isn't over yet and you are already claiming it's the biggest steal in franchise history. We can also forget about what these players did with their respective teams last year. sure Randle. lol.

[Mehar]

Totally idiotic play by Kirk earlier in the game that cost us big time. I bet Moreno would have played that better. Kirk is awful behind the plate.

Kirk is probably the best defensive catcher in baseball, but sure.

Kirk is decent, but nowhere near the best defensive catcher in baseball. What a delusional statement to make when I am looking at all the stats in front of me. Baseball Prospectus has him the 15th Best Catcher in Baseball based on the numbers up to this point (based on his position and clicking the two different summary/catching headings which display the different data) on this link- https://www.baseballprospectus.com/leaderboards/fielding/

Given his atrocious .211 BA and his OPS of .594, and the guy has been a major disappointment all year. Not great numbers for a guy who you said was a Top 5 MLB Catcher coming into the year. You were right that we need to compare Moreno vs. Kirk, and Moreno has also been underwhelming also up to this point compared to last year (.240 BA, OPS of .659). Defensively, Moreno has been solid. Hopefully this team can find a way to keep Jansen on a long-term deal in the off-season, so Kirk can be relegated to being a backup for years to come. That was an idiotic play by Kirk that cost this team a chance to be .500 for the first time in a long time.

[Hottie McShotty]

Beer ftw!

If only Kirk was a little bit fatter he would've generated more momentum and gotten that ball out.

[PowerPlant1]

Saw the boxscore. Brewers 5 Bisons 4.

Enough with Vogelbach and Springer batting high in the lineup already. Kirk is an offensive liability and just like Varsho last year, the tactic seems to be to highlight defense to make up for that shortcoming. Great, on this team, another defensive specialist. That's what is needed.

[Randle McMurphy]

Totally idiotic play by Kirk earlier in the game that cost us big time. I bet Moreno would have played that better. Kirk is awful behind the plate.

Kirk is probably the best defensive catcher in baseball, but sure.

Kirk is decent, but nowhere near the best defensive catcher in baseball. What a delusional statement to make when I am looking at all the stats in front of me. Baseball Prospectus has him the 15th Best Catcher in Baseball based on the numbers up to this point (based on his position and clicking the two different summary/catching headings which display the different data) on this link- https://www.baseballprospectus.com/leaderboards/fielding/

Given his atrocious .211 BA and his OPS of .594, and the guy has been a major disappointment all year. Not great numbers for a guy who you said was a Top 5 MLB Catcher coming into the year. You were right that we need to compare Moreno vs. Kirk, and Moreno has also been underwhelming also up to this point compared to last year (.240 BA, OPS of .659). Defensively, Moreno has been solid. Hopefully this team can find a way to keep Jansen on a long-term deal in the off-season, so Kirk can be relegated to being a backup for years to come. That was an idiotic play by Kirk that cost this team a chance to be .500 for the first time in a long time.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?lg=all&season=2024&season1=2024&ind=0&stats=fld&pos=c&type=1&sortcol=12&sortdir=default&qual=0

Kirk is 5th among catchers in MLB in DRS (7, 5 more than scrub Moreno) despite playing less innings than all of those above him but one. In actuality, he's only the 2nd best defensive catcher in baseball this season.

However, if you include both 2023 and 2024, Kirk has the most DRS of any catcher in baseball, an impressive total considering Kirk has been a backup for a large portion of that time. Crying about one misplay and labelling him as "awful behind the plate" when he's saved the most runs behind the plate of any catcher in the league over the past two seasons seems rather silly, no? Although I suppose it's not quite as silly as still pining for a scrub catcher two years after a steal of a trade for the most valuable player on the roster by far.

[Mehar]

Kirk is probably the best defensive catcher in baseball, but sure.

Kirk is decent, but nowhere near the best defensive catcher in baseball. What a delusional statement to make when I am looking at all the stats in front of me. Baseball Prospectus has him the 15th Best Catcher in Baseball based on the numbers up to this point (based on his position and clicking the two different summary/catching headings which display the different data) on this link- https://www.baseballprospectus.com/leaderboards/fielding/

Given his atrocious .211 BA and his OPS of .594, and the guy has been a major disappointment all year. Not great numbers for a guy who you said was a Top 5 MLB Catcher coming into the year. You were right that we need to compare Moreno vs. Kirk, and Moreno has also been underwhelming also up to this point compared to last year (.240 BA, OPS of .659). Defensively, Moreno has been solid. Hopefully this team can find a way to keep Jansen on a long-term deal in the off-season, so Kirk can be relegated to being a backup for years to come. That was an idiotic play by Kirk that cost this team a chance to be .500 for the first time in a long time.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?lg=all&season=2024&season1=2024&ind=0&stats=fld&pos=c&type=1&sortcol=12&sortdir=default&qual=0

Kirk is 5th among catchers in MLB in DRS (7, 5 more than scrub Moreno) despite playing less innings than all of those above him but one. In actuality, he's only the 2nd best defensive catcher in baseball this season.

However, if you include both 2023 and 2024, Kirk has the most DRS of any catcher in baseball, an impressive total considering Kirk has been a backup for a large portion of that time. Crying about one misplay and labelling him as "awful behind the plate" when he's saved the most runs behind the plate of any catcher in the league over the past two seasons seems rather silly, no? Although I suppose it's not quite as silly as still pining for a scrub catcher two years after a steal of a trade for the most valuable player on the roster by far.

Kirk has been more of a backup this year (mainly because he has sucked offensively), but last year he played 12 more games than Moreno and was not a backup. If you read what I had said properly, I said Kirk was decent defensively, but nowhere near the best defensive catcher in baseball like you stated. I said the play he made today was idiotic, and that was the truth since it was not necessary and cost this team. I have said Kirk has been atrocious offensively (far worse than Moreno), and the numbers point that out so far (with his .211 BA and .594 OPS). The facts and numbers do not lie, even when you called him a Top 5 MLB Catcher in April, which seemed rather silly, no?

By the way, A guy who was Number 1 in MLB in Defensive WAR like Moreno last year, and won the Gold Glove as a Rookie is not a scrub (LOL). Where we disagree is that Defensive Runs Saved is not the sole component I use to determine who is outstanding defensively for a Catcher. I value it more for an Outfielder like Varsho than a Catcher, since I consider other factors behind the plate which Baseball Prospectus considers. Baseball Prospectus has Kirk as the 15th best catcher right now, because it does a deep dive into all the advanced defensive statistics besides Defensive Runs Saved. That includes throwing Runners out, blocking, framing, swipe rates, takeoff rates, etc. Overall, defensive runs saved or not, Kirk has been an utter disappointment with his bat, and hopefully this organization does the right thing and bring back Jansen in the off-season as the Starting Catcher for years to come.

[Fairview4Life]

Kirk is decent, but nowhere near the best defensive catcher in baseball. What a delusional statement to make when I am looking at all the stats in front of me. Baseball Prospectus has him the 15th Best Catcher in Baseball based on the numbers up to this point (based on his position and clicking the two different summary/catching headings which display the different data) on this link- https://www.baseballprospectus.com/leaderboards/fielding/

Given his atrocious .211 BA and his OPS of .594, and the guy has been a major disappointment all year. Not great numbers for a guy who you said was a Top 5 MLB Catcher coming into the year. You were right that we need to compare Moreno vs. Kirk, and Moreno has also been underwhelming also up to this point compared to last year (.240 BA, OPS of .659). Defensively, Moreno has been solid. Hopefully this team can find a way to keep Jansen on a long-term deal in the off-season, so Kirk can be relegated to being a backup for years to come. That was an idiotic play by Kirk that cost this team a chance to be .500 for the first time in a long time.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?lg=all&season=2024&season1=2024&ind=0&stats=fld&pos=c&type=1&sortcol=12&sortdir=default&qual=0

Kirk is 5th among catchers in MLB in DRS (7, 5 more than scrub Moreno) despite playing less innings than all of those above him but one. In actuality, he's only the 2nd best defensive catcher in baseball this season.

However, if you include both 2023 and 2024, Kirk has the most DRS of any catcher in baseball, an impressive total considering Kirk has been a backup for a large portion of that time. Crying about one misplay and labelling him as "awful behind the plate" when he's saved the most runs behind the plate of any catcher in the league over the past two seasons seems rather silly, no? Although I suppose it's not quite as silly as still pining for a scrub catcher two years after a steal of a trade for the most valuable player on the roster by far.

Kirk has been more of a backup this year (mainly because he has sucked offensively), but last year he played 12 more games than Moreno and was not a backup. If you read what I had said properly, I said Kirk was decent defensively, but nowhere near the best defensive catcher in baseball like you stated. I said the play he made today was idiotic, and that was the truth since it was not necessary and cost this team. I have said Kirk has been atrocious offensively (far worse than Moreno), and the numbers point that out so far (with his .211 BA and .594 OPS). The facts and numbers do not lie, even when you called him a Top 5 MLB Catcher in April, which seemed rather silly, no?

By the way, A guy who was Number 1 in MLB in Defensive WAR like Moreno last year, and won the Gold Glove as a Rookie is not a scrub (LOL). Where we disagree is that Defensive Runs Saved is not the sole component I use to determine who is outstanding defensively for a Catcher. I value it more for an Outfielder like Varsho than a Catcher, since I consider other factors behind the plate which Baseball Prospectus considers. Baseball Prospectus has Kirk as the 15th best catcher right now, because it does a deep dive into all the advanced defensive statistics besides Defensive Runs Saved. That includes throwing Runners out, blocking, framing, swipe rates, takeoff rates, etc. Overall, defensive runs saved or not, Kirk has been an utter disappointment with his bat, and hopefully this organization does the right thing and bring back Jansen in the off-season as the Starting Catcher for years to come.

The defensive war number you keep citing is highly dependent on pitcher era and the problems with attributing that to catchers has already been explained to you.

[Lateral Quicks]

Absolutely terrified Guillermo is going to ruin Horwitz next...

[Fairview4Life]

Absolutely terrified Guillermo is going to ruin Horwitz next...

The man is a menace.

[bluerap23]

Brown and 19 for Vuc and 11 could work if Bulls want out.

[Hottie McShotty]

Brown and 19 for Vuc and 11 could work if Bulls want out.

They can have Vogelbach too!

[Parataxis]

Brown and 19 for Vuc and 11 could work if Bulls want out.

Does Vuc bat from the left or right?

[SharoneWright]

Brown and 19 for Vuc and 11 could work if Bulls want out.

I forgot Dasan was still in our system.

[Ranger One]

Mods can be please ban all Moreno / Kirk / Varsho discourse on this sub. I'm honestly getting quite sick of it clogging up every single Game Thread. This sub is already on life support as is, without two clowns hijacking every thread with never ending arguments about that utterly inconsequential trade.