Series Thread: Jays @ Rockies, June 11-13

[CapeCrusader]

Thank god that series is over with...

[s e n s i]

Litsch looked a lot like the faulty "Fast 70+" batting cage I frequent every week. It doesn't spit out balls at 70+ like advertised, but it does come out with a bit of movement- maybe a few centimeters. Every pitch is in the wheelhouse and it makes for a satisfying day at the cages.

[jalenrose#5]

Litsch just didn't have it today. I found his control was terrible. Half the time he was wild inside the zone, half the time he was wild outside the zone...if that makes any sense. Sort of like the Josh Towers Syndrome, ala throwing BP to the hitters.

I'm willing to give him another start or two and have Tallet up and ready in both starts to come in early if need be.

If he doesn't have it after that, I think it's down to AA to get some confidence back pitching in a more pitchers friendly league.

[tsherkin]

Sigh. Acting like you've proven something on the basis of one start doesn't make much sense, man. It's somewhat like Indians commentator Bruce Drennan going nuts over a Jhonny Peralta 0 for 5 in mid-May.

I was just having some fun; one start is meaningless, to be sure.

He's coming off of injury and a few crappy starts in the minors and has a totally different set of circumstances. I really wasn't being serious at all.

It doesn't make Jesse Litsch a bad starting pitcher,

I don't consider Litsch to be a bad pitcher, I consider him a viable 4th or 5th starter, somewhat better but not massively superior to Brian Tallet.

Marcum has greatly improved on his control this season, though (1.90 BB/9). It's one of the main reasons for his improved performance.

That's not true, Marcum's success even in 2007 was based off of control as well. He had a nearly identical K/BB ratio and he was getting ahead in the count with a first-pitch strike earlier. Yeah, his walk rate has come down and he's given up fewer homers, but I don't know that this is anything more than sample bias from early in the season. He looked pretty crisp about his control even back then, and he's pitching to contact even more, so his style is a little different. Is it his control that's changed? Or is it his approach? He's not really using his slider anymore and he's using his change and curve more, but most notably he's using his cutter a lot more. He's also getting a lot more swinging strikes, in and especially out of the zone and again, pitching to contact a LOT more but he's actually IN the zone noticeably less than in years past.

So I don't know if it's control, or if he's just using pitches in which he's always been confident in new ways, and adding in the cutter. He's been nasty as all hell, that's all I know about Marcum, even after he got shelled the other night.

Litsch is OK, he's just nothing special. He's not considerably better than Tallet, just somewhat so.

But man, you need to lighten up, lol.

[Randle McMurphy]

I don't consider Litsch to be a bad pitcher, I consider him a viable 4th or 5th starter, somewhat better but not massively superior to Brian Tallet.

Brian Tallet has never been a viable 4th or 5th starter, and I don't consider him to be one.

That's not true, Marcum's success even in 2007 was based off of control as well. He had a nearly identical K/BB ratio and he was getting ahead in the count with a first-pitch strike earlier.

Marcum's K/BB this year is 3.61, which is significantly better than his 2.49 in 2007 or 2.46 in 2008. Fewer walks is one of the things that accounts for his improved performance this year...I'm not sure what you're debating here.

Litsch is OK, he's just nothing special. He's not considerably better than Tallet, just somewhat so.

Depends how you define nothing special. Not all major league starting pitchers have great stuff, nor do they need it. It just helps.

But man, you need to lighten up, lol.

If I thought it was funny, I would have laughed.

[spykelee]

Geez Randle, your all buisness all the time eh?

I liken Litsch to Randle's golf game...

If Randle breaks 100, I'm guessin that's probably a good day?

If Litsch allows less than 4 earned runs and makes it through 5 innings, IMO that's a good day.

I also agree with TSherkin in that Litsch is better, just not vastly superior to Brian Tallet. Given a choice right at this instant, I'd take Tallet in a heartbeat personally.

[Randle McMurphy]

If Litsch allows less than 4 earned runs and makes it through 5 innings, IMO that's a good day.

Except it wouldn't be. While understanding that ERA is a poor way to evaluate pitching, if a pitcher did that every start out, he would have a 7.20 ERA at season's end, a number that certainly isn't considered "good" by anybody.

I also agree with TSherkin in that Litsch is better, just not vastly superior to Brian Tallet.

Is that what we're arguing here? The degree to which Jesse Litsch is superior to Brian Tallet? What does it matter?

If Litsch is ready to pitch again, I want him here over Tallet for development reasons more than anything.

[Schad]

I also agree with TSherkin in that Litsch is better, just not vastly superior to Brian Tallet. Given a choice right at this instant, I'd take Tallet in a heartbeat personally.

I wouldn't. I'm not overly fond of Litsch, but Tallet is considerably worse.

[Hoopstarr]

I'm not going to defend Litsch nearly as maniacally as Randle, but he is definitely much better than Tallet. He gets underrated in general because he looks like an O'Doyle family member from Billy Madison.

[RapsFanInVA]

I'm not going to defend Litsch nearly as maniacally as Randle, but he is definitely much better than Tallet. He gets underrated in general because he looks like an O'Doyle family member from Billy Madison.

O'Doyle Rules!

[Hoopstarr]

O'Doyle Rules!

[tsherkin]

Brian Tallet has never been a viable 4th or 5th starter, and I don't consider him to be one.

Which is the part where Litsch is a little better. Yay, corollary!

Marcum's K/BB this year is 3.61, which is significantly better than his 2.49 in 2007 or 2.46 in 2008. Fewer walks is one of the things that accounts for his improved performance this year...I'm not sure what you're debating here.

Nothing specific; I think I'm saying that maybe he's not doing it with more precise control, because he's in the zone even less, but because guys are swinging at his stuff more. Or maybe more properly that it's hard to attribute his success this season to any one thing because a lot has changed about the way he's pitching. It isn't worth a big debate; he's clearly improved a lot in many areas. I just didn't want to pin it down to one specific area that's the root of his success.

Depends how you define nothing special. Not all major league starting pitchers have great stuff, nor do they need it. It just helps.

I agree. When I say "nothing special," I mean he's not all that compelling a player, he's got a low ceiling, his stuff isn't that great and he's not an overwhelming talent. He's a solid 4th or 5th starter. It's great for him, and he's a decent player, just... nothing special.

If I thought it was funny, I would have laughed.

*shrugs* That doesn't change the fact that you need to lighten up, lol.

[tsherkin]

If Litsch is ready to pitch again, I want him here over Tallet for development reasons more than anything.

That makes a lot of sense. The thrust of my point before was that I don't think Litsch IS quite ready to pitch at this level yet. I'd have liked if he had made 3 or 4 more starts down in the minors before coming up. It would have exposed us to Tallet as a starter a little longer, and that's not awesome, but it's not like we're going for a WS ring this year, you know?

I wouldn't. I'm not overly fond of Litsch, but Tallet is considerably worse.

I'm inclined to side with Schad (and, by extension, Randle) here; long-term, Litsch is younger and he is a somewhat better pitcher. Tallet can fill in as a 5th starter... Litsch is a decent 4th or 5th starter, so I mean there's obviously a gap there that favors Litsch.

I just don't like that we're rushing him back and I don't think he's some savior pitcher; Randle defends him with such fervor that I'm compelled to play Devil's Advocate because Litsch isn't the second coming of Greg Maddux, he's just a guy who can fill out the back end of your rotation as capably as you'd expect from someone in that role.

[Randle McMurphy]

Nothing specific; I think I'm saying that maybe he's not doing it with more precise control, because he's in the zone even less, but because guys are swinging at his stuff more. Or maybe more properly that it's hard to attribute his success this season to any one thing because a lot has changed about the way he's pitching. It isn't worth a big debate; he's clearly improved a lot in many areas. I just didn't want to pin it down to one specific area that's the root of his success.

That's why I said "one of the things that accounts for his improved performance this year," not the only thing.

*shrugs* That doesn't change the fact that you need to lighten up, lol.

As I said, it would help if your joke was actually funny and not just a knock at me.

[Randle McMurphy]

Randle defends him with such fervor that I'm compelled to play Devil's Advocate because Litsch isn't the second coming of Greg Maddux, he's just a guy who can fill out the back end of your rotation as capably as you'd expect from someone in that role.

I don't remember saying I wanted Litsch over Romero, Marcum, Cecil, or Morrow. Just Tallet.

And how much is Litsch really going to benefit from getting hit around a few more times in Vegas? Speaking of which...does anybody know how long the Jays' contract is with Vegas? I'd like to get the hell out of there...the sooner the better.

[Modern_epic]

Randle defends him with such fervor that I'm compelled to play Devil's Advocate because Litsch isn't the second coming of Greg Maddux, he's just a guy who can fill out the back end of your rotation as capably as you'd expect from someone in that role.

I don't remember saying I wanted Litsch over Romero, Marcum, Cecil, or Morrow. Just Tallet.

And how much is Litsch really going to benefit from getting hit around a few more times in Vegas? Speaking of which...does anybody know how long the Jays' contract is with Vegas? I'd like to get the hell out of there...the sooner the better.

It's up this year.

But don't forget that they ended up together because no one wanted either team. That being said, New Hampshire is playing decently, so maybe we'll look like a better match this time. Rochester's deal with the Twins is up too, but I know nothing about how likely they are to change that. Maybe Rogers can buy an AAA team and move them to Ottawa.

[tsherkin]

That's why I said "one of the things that accounts for his improved performance this year," not the only thing.

And, as usual, you took a basic statement with no need for debate and turned into anargument. I wasn't saying that you meant anything apart from what you said, I was only saying that Marcum's improved in several areas and is pitching very differently than he has previously.

As I said, it would help if your joke was actually funny and not just a knock at me.

Grow a thicker skin? I don't wig out everytime someone hits me with a "How'd that Kwame-over-Bosh thing work out for you?" comment, it's just sports, man. "Lighten up" isn't a knock.

I don't remember saying I wanted Litsch over Romero, Marcum, Cecil, or Morrow. Just Tallet.

I know, but you fight tooth and nail to separate the two as if there's a yawning chasm of talent between the two of them when there really isn't. Litsch is better, certainly, but not a lot better.

And how much is Litsch really going to benefit from getting hit around a few more times in Vegas?

I think a lot. Loosening up his arm, getting his poise together, getting back into the rhythm of pitching every 5th day, all those sorts of things. I suppose you could make the argument that since the wheels are finally falling off of our unsustainable offense that it might be better for him to be up here, and there's some sense to that, but I'd really rather just give him another two or three weeks to get himself together before bringing him up. It's too late now, of course, so we'll just hope he bounces back.

[Randle McMurphy]

And, as usual, you took a basic statement with no need for debate and turned into anargument.

Actually, that's what you did when I pointed out Marcum's improved control this season.

Grow a thicker skin? I don't wig out everytime someone hits me with a "How'd that Kwame-over-Bosh thing work out for you?" comment, it's just sports, man. "Lighten up" isn't a knock.

I'd rather just continue to point out your falsities, I think. It's more fun that way for me.

I know, but you fight tooth and nail to separate the two as if there's a yawning chasm of talent between the two of them when there really isn't. Litsch is better, certainly, but not a lot better.

He's been a much better starting pitcher than Brian Tallet in his career. This really isn't disputable, and I've already spent far too much of my time explaining why that is.

[Randle McMurphy]

Randle defends him with such fervor that I'm compelled to play Devil's Advocate because Litsch isn't the second coming of Greg Maddux, he's just a guy who can fill out the back end of your rotation as capably as you'd expect from someone in that role.

I don't remember saying I wanted Litsch over Romero, Marcum, Cecil, or Morrow. Just Tallet.

And how much is Litsch really going to benefit from getting hit around a few more times in Vegas? Speaking of which...does anybody know how long the Jays' contract is with Vegas? I'd like to get the hell out of there...the sooner the better.

It's up this year.

But don't forget that they ended up together because no one wanted either team. That being said, New Hampshire is playing decently, so maybe we'll look like a better match this time. Rochester's deal with the Twins is up too, but I know nothing about how likely they are to change that. Maybe Rogers can buy an AAA team and move them to Ottawa.

Good, but you're right, maybe we shouldn't get our hopes up about a change out of the PCL.

[spykelee]

Right at this instant, I think Brian Tallet gives us a better chance to win on a nightly basis than Jesse Litsch, and on that basis alone, I think Tallet get's the nod for now, for me. I don't think Listch is far from surpassing tallet, maybe another 2-3 or so starts in Triple A...

I don't feel like Jesse has earned anything or established himself in any capacity really. We've got Stewart, Drabek, Zep and Listch that are all viable candidates for our 5th spot. I think in a bit when Listch is ready to go he can assume the 5th role, but a few weeks after that, Zep should be given a look too... if neither of those guys establish themselves, then by years end we maybe get a look at Drabek and or Stewart for that spot. I don't feel like there's 1 guy who should automatically get that spot. Whoever bounces back from injury the fastest, and is the most consistent get's the 1st shot, and if they don't run with it, then we keep on going. I wouldn't be heartbroken in the slightest if Litsch was an odd man out. He's a fringe 4, and a mediocre 5 at best. Nothing special.