AA f*cks the poodle: Wallace traded for Gose, per Rosey

[pugilistfan]

In all fairness, isnt Brett Wallace hitting .300 in Las Vegas. Isnt that ballpark a hitters dream. .300/.360 as a 24 year old in AAA at a hitters ballpark doesnt seem earth shattering.

I see Wallace as being a solid player but not a star.

[rtcaino]

When they traded for Wallace, Anthopoulos talked about Wallace being "the guy" at 1B going forward... for Anthopoulos to go back on those words so soon is very surprising.

He never said Wallace would 100% be the starting first baseman, or that he wouldn't be traded.

Nothing is 100%, but Anthopoulos was very high on him in December upon acquiring him. That's undeniable. Either something changed after getting a closer look at Wallace or they valued Gose above him all along (which is very surprising and possibly foolhardy).

He mentioned in the fan that this was an 'agonizing' trade.

Doesn't sound like he soured on Wallace, as much as saw more value in Gose, and had to give up a good player to get him.

Likewise, I don't think he soured on Collins either - but saw a premium talent, and had to give up good assets in exchange.

[rtcaino]

This trade really paves the way for my boy Lance Durham, as the next franchise 1B.

Cinci what what

[LBJSeizedMyID]

It would seem so, but Wallace was still highly rated by BA (only a few weeks ago) and Keith Law among others.

Big deal. Goldstein called him the most overrated hitter in the minors, a guy who couldn't even hit well enough in an extreme hitting environment. Even Callis said today that he's only a "pretty good" player...at 1B a pretty good guy with poor defense isn't anything to lose sleep over, which is why we were willing to trade him.

Agreed. This is Wallace's third year in AAA. By your third year, you should be killing AAA pitching. Wallace has shown much growth this year. Not to mention, it's hard to get a legit top of the bat, then a power hitting 1B with not much defensive skills. A lot easier to get that first baseman - can either sign someone, trade someone or even convert someone...or get a minor league prospect rotting in the minors like Kila Ka'aihue

[Hummus]

reading quotes from Anthopolous, it really seems that they simply always valued Gose over Wallace. That is, he was one of the Phillies' prospects we were most after during the Halladay trade (maybe second to Drabek). It seems that everybody on this board is much less hot on the idea, but I like that Anthopolous isn't scared to scout, find a talent he likes, and even to surrender talent (that he is I am sure, still very high on) to get something more. You HAVE to give something to get something, so let's hope that the gamble pays off. Now, if Wallace has a Jason Giambi type career, we may retrospectively rue this trade - but these are in line with our new philosophy, which is to get high upside prospects in the farm system.

Also, I don't think we need to start undermining Wallace, downplaying his talent. It just makes us seem (or expose) the fact that we are looking at our prospects through rose-coloured glasses. Let's be honest with all our prospects and players flaws and strengths. We don't need to make ourselves feel as though we "won" this trade - I'd like to think that both prospects are good and will become major league players - but that we got the one with a higher ceiling.

[Michael Bradley]

Also, I don't think we need to start undermining Wallace, downplaying his talent. It just makes us seem (or expose) the fact that we are looking at our prospects through rose-coloured glasses. Let's be honest with all our prospects and players flaws and strengths. We don't need to make ourselves feel as though we "won" this trade - I'd like to think that both prospects are good and will become major league players - but that we got the one with a higher ceiling.

Speaking for myself, my stance on Wallace hasn't really changed. I was iffy on him when the Jays acquired him, especially when he had to move from 3B to 1B (greatly diminishing his offensive potential). I was ready to give him 2010 to prove his 2009 campaign was just a case of being rushed or getting his feet wet, but he is right back to the questionable BB/K rate and mediocre power for a 1B that made me worried about him in the first place. I have no problem with trading Wallace and I have no problem with acquiring Gose. The question I had when I first heard this news was whether the Jays could have acquired Gose for less. Maybe they couldn't have, and AA liked him so much that he was OK with moving Wallace for him. If that's the case then fine.

From an asset standpoint in 2010, the Jays probably took a hit. In 2011, 2012, etc? It wouldn't surprise me if Gose's value shot up. He does something that is hard to find (plus defense at CF/plus speed) and if his hitting improves even a little bit then he's probably a bigger asset at age 20 than Wallace will be at age 25. He is still raw as hell.

I'm iffy on guys like Gose as a whole because their bust potential far outweighs their chances of panning out, but if that is the risk AA and his scouts were willing to take, then I will trust them on it. A guy who could turn League, Gonzalez, Collins, Chavez, and Pastornicky into Brandon Morrow and Yunel Escobar should garner some trust in the talent evaluation department. He knows what he is doing. Let's hope this ends up being more proof of that. I don't care if the player we give up pans out, as long as the one we get back does the same.

[The_Hater]

the Jays' front office got their close look at Wallace this year and were likely scared off by the size of his mammoth thighs.

While i know nothing about Gose, I wasn't sure how people could soil their Sunday bests while thinking about Wallace. he has a body built for late 1980's baseball. he might as well have changed his last name to Molina. he wasn't a 5 tool player.

seems like Gose may be a 5 tool player with the bonus tool being his deadweight bball iq.

Don't you have this backwards Yogi? It was back in the 70's and 80's that scouts and GM's looked for 5 tool players, hell that's probably when that phrase was coined. Now we're in the moneyball era when they're are looking beyond that for guys that can produce a high OPS.

[Lateral Quicks]

Also, I don't think we need to start undermining Wallace, downplaying his talent. It just makes us seem (or expose) the fact that we are looking at our prospects through rose-coloured glasses. Let's be honest with all our prospects and players flaws and strengths. We don't need to make ourselves feel as though we "won" this trade - I'd like to think that both prospects are good and will become major league players - but that we got the one with a higher ceiling.

I think anybody expecting Wallace to come up and high .300 with a .900 OPS were fooling themselves. He's putting up Jarret Hoffpauir numbers this year, and we saw how Jarrett did up here for his cup of coffee.

That said, I think Wallace will be a solid offensive first baseman. Much like Overbay actually (in the power and average department, but DEFINITELY not the walks or OBP). If his defense doesn't improve, he may eventually find his way into the DH role. I wish him the best.

Gose is a project, but a project with superb tools. Some are saying his BBall IQ is low, but I wonder how much of that is being immature at age 19. The Jays clearly value him, and will make his development a priority in the next few years.

To hear AA tell it, they wanted Gose over Taylor in the original deal, but Philly wouldn't do it. So, from that perspective, AA just fleeced them (through Houston) again, in getting his man without giving up any additional assets.

So now it's: Drabek + Gose + D'Arnaud. By all accounts that's 3 high upside players for Halladay. If just two of those turn out, you're laughing.

[notic519]

When they traded for Wallace, Anthopoulos talked about Wallace being "the guy" at 1B going forward. He went on and on about his bat in justification of the Taylor deal (a deal that I didn't particularly like at the time and still don't). While Wallace has performed below expectations in AAA, for Anthopoulos to go back on those words so soon is very surprising. Really, all of that praise for Wallace is one of the reasons that there is such a backlash right now.

Unless they originally wanted Gose back then and got Taylor as consolation (hard to believe, but maybe it's true?), their view on Wallace changed significantly over the last 6 months. It's not the first time that Wallace has been quickly moved by a team after he was acquired (the A's). The fact that he's now moving to his 4th team in 2 years is very telling.

Basically, this seemingly indecisive move doesn't leave me that confident in this team's management and scouting department. For them to change their mind so quickly on a guy (or come to a sudden realization on closer inspection) who was supposed to be an important piece for them doesn't bode that well for future moves involving major prospects. But maybe I'm wrong and they see something in Gose that everybody else doesn't.


IMO, Wallace is only going to be an average 1B (much like Overbay), but that's still worth quite a bit more than a high ceiling risk in Anthony Gose.

How is this an indecisive move? AA wanted Gose in the Halladay trade but couldn't get him from Philly (AA and Wilner both said they have been trying to acquire Gose for a while). They took Taylor instead and managed to turn Taylor (via Wallace) into Gose.

Explain to me how that is indecisive?

I have no idea why people are so upset about trading Wallace away. You would think coming from this board he is the second coming of Cecil Fielder. There are many ways to fill that first basemen's spot. Move Lind there is one option, Wallace's D from all accounts isn't that good so moving Lind to first won't matter too much defensively plus Lind is arguably the better hitter anyways! Another option is trade for a potential first basemen or draft one.

It's like you guys want to see results right away. The Jay's want to compete in 2012 but they also want to stay competitive, so who cares if he may not be ready until 2014 or later. Vernon's contract is done in 4 years so getting his replacement isn't a terrible idea.

[Randle McMurphy]

How is this an indecisive move? AA wanted Gose in the Halladay trade but couldn't get him from Philly (AA and Wilner both said they have been trying to acquire Gose for a while). They took Taylor instead and managed to turn Taylor (via Wallace) into Gose.

I wrote that before Anthopoulos said he'd been trying to acquire Gose for months and wanted him more than Taylor or Wallace last winter. That changes things. To me, though, it just makes this deal even more puzzling. The Jays were obviously quite enamored with Gose to want him over such highly valued prospects and I respect that. But I can only trust in one team's group of scouts so much.

I have no idea why people are so upset about trading Wallace away. You would think coming from this board he is the second coming of Cecil Fielder.

I wrote in my post that I don't think he'll end up being much better than Lyle Overbay. But that belief doesn't change my mind that this was a loss of value.

It's like you guys want to see results right away. The Jay's want to compete in 2012 but they also want to stay competitive, so who cares if he may not be ready until 2014 or later. Vernon's contract is done in 4 years so getting his replacement isn't a terrible idea.

Gose still has a lot of developing left to do before being written in as Vernon Wells' replacement.

[aligator]

This trade really paves the way for my boy Lance Durham, as the next franchise 1B.

Cinci what what

Any of you ever heard of Mike McDade, having a break out year at Dundedin - big bat, big body but agile, good D at 1b - some scouts say he reminds of Prince Fielder but with a little less power - indirectly, he may have played a part in this deal D. There will be several options going forward at 1b and he may be one. For now, it's likely Lind.

Remember AA saying that you had to anticipate what's going to happen, not what's happening now in terms of prospects. He expects the stock of Gose to rise and of Wallace to fall. Gose, according to my research has the tools to be a super star- as with Escobar, guys like this aren't available too often. He's been unavailable for the past year and now Philly desperate for Oswalt let him go and AA stole him from one of the poorest organizations in terms of talent evaluation, the sad sack Astros. Great move. Great trade. Looking forward to more. And just because, the major league team has been better than expected so far this season, does not mean you change the rebuilding plan in mid course. AA has a PLAN and he's sticking to it. Again, well done.

[LBJSeizedMyID]

This trade really paves the way for my boy Lance Durham, as the next franchise 1B.

Cinci what what

Any of you ever heard of Mike McDade, having a break out year at Dundedin - big bat, big body but agile, good D at 1b - some scouts say he reminds of Prince Fielder but with a little less power - indirectly, he may have played a part in this deal D. There will be several options going forward at 1b and he may be one. For now, it's likely Lind.

Hard to get excited on a guy that has 105 SO in just 349 at bats. Sounds like another Chris Davis to me.

[notic519]

How is this an indecisive move? AA wanted Gose in the Halladay trade but couldn't get him from Philly (AA and Wilner both said they have been trying to acquire Gose for a while). They took Taylor instead and managed to turn Taylor (via Wallace) into Gose.

I wrote that before Anthopoulos said he'd been trying to acquire Gose for months and wanted him more than Taylor or Wallace last winter. That changes things. To me, though, it just makes this deal even more puzzling. The Jays were obviously quite enamored with Gose to want him over such highly valued prospects and I respect that. But I can only trust in one team's group of scouts so much.

I have no idea why people are so upset about trading Wallace away. You would think coming from this board he is the second coming of Cecil Fielder.

I wrote in my post that I don't think he'll end up being much better than Lyle Overbay. But that belief doesn't change my mind that this was a loss of value.

It's like you guys want to see results right away. The Jay's want to compete in 2012 but they also want to stay competitive, so who cares if he may not be ready until 2014 or later. Vernon's contract is done in 4 years so getting his replacement isn't a terrible idea.

Gose still has a lot of developing left to do before being written in as Vernon Wells' replacement.

So i guess your main argument is that you believe we could have got more for Wallace than Gose which is fair.

All i can say to that is it's much more difficult to find a fast (insanely fast)/defensive center fielder than it is to find an average first basemen. The jays are trading a safer bet for a player with higher potential. So it terms of market value currently both Wallace and Gose are equal. Since it's a one for one deal I don't know how you can argue that. The question becomes: 3 years down the road who's market value will be higher? Since AA is putting a lot of emphasis in scouting and development and so far seems to be a good eye for talent; Drebek (has already pitched a no hitter), Morrow (looks to be a capable 2nd starter in the rotation) and Escobar (hitting .354 and 2 hrs with the Jays so far and coming into this season was being mentioned in the same sentences as Hanley Ramirez), I believe when all is said and done we will be happy with this trade.

[Avenger]

the Jays' front office got their close look at Wallace this year and were likely scared off by the size of his mammoth thighs.

While i know nothing about Gose, I wasn't sure how people could soil their Sunday bests while thinking about Wallace. he has a body built for late 1980's baseball. he might as well have changed his last name to Molina. he wasn't a 5 tool player.

seems like Gose may be a 5 tool player with the bonus tool being his deadweight bball iq.

Don't you have this backwards Yogi? It was back in the 70's and 80's that scouts and GM's looked for 5 tool players, hell that's probably when that phrase was coined. Now we're in the moneyball era when they're are looking beyond that for guys that can produce a high OPS.

Moneyball doesn't value OBP and the emphasis on statistical models is not that advantageous anymore because the market has caught on to the tools Beane and co are using to evaluate and draft players. If anything i would say Alex is in a way trying to take moneyball into a different era by emphasizing scouting and qualitative evaluation.

[Jimmy King]

brett wallace mle OPS
2010: 673
2009: 680
2008: 660

[Hoopstarr]

I think the reason they couldn't get Gose in the Doc trade was that Philly had planned out their future OF as so: They needed one OF prospect ready to start playing every day in 2011. Dom Brown was their untouchable prospect so he was that guy, which made Taylor expendable. Even though they valued Gose less than Taylor, Philly still wouldn't give us Gose in the Doc trade because they saw Gose as a future replacement for Victorino. That's the only explanation I can come up with for them not including Gose in the original deal. Philly even balked at including Gose when JP asked for him (Brown, Drabek, Happ, Gose) last July so that's telling as well.

[rtcaino]

This trade really paves the way for my boy Lance Durham, as the next franchise 1B.

Cinci what what

Any of you ever heard of Mike McDade, having a break out year at Dundedin - big bat, big body but agile, good D at 1b - some scouts say he reminds of Prince Fielder but with a little less power - indirectly, he may have played a part in this deal D. There will be several options going forward at 1b and he may be one. For now, it's likely Lind.

Remember AA saying that you had to anticipate what's going to happen, not what's happening now in terms of prospects. He expects the stock of Gose to rise and of Wallace to fall. Gose, according to my research has the tools to be a super star- as with Escobar, guys like this aren't available too often. He's been unavailable for the past year and now Philly desperate for Oswalt let him go and AA stole him from one of the poorest organizations in terms of talent evaluation, the sad sack Astros. Great move. Great trade. Looking forward to more. And just because, the major league team has been better than expected so far this season, does not mean you change the rebuilding plan in mid course. AA has a PLAN and he's sticking to it. Again, well done.

Ya I was being facetious.

I was in cinci last year at draft night and saw Lance Druham @ the bar w his new jays hat on. I wish him the best, but certainly not expecting him to save the franchise. But neither do I expect that from McDade. Just givin a shout out to the only guy on our system who has me as a fbook friend!

[SargentBargs101]

"There is a path to success for Gose, but the sheer amount of refinement that will take makes it extremely unlikely. You have to think this kind of a guy becomes a fifth outfielder in the Majors at least, but his ceiling is about where Brett Wallace‘s meager median outcomes lie."
fangraph...

[rtcaino]

Gose's ceiling is where Wallace's median lies?

Ya I'd trust AA and our scouts over that guy for sure.