Scott Carson: Marcum trade/Grienke/More Rumours

[Rapsobsessed7]

Tuesday December 7, 2010 2:29 Chris Sprow
2:31


[Comment From Guest Guest : ]
Are the Jays close to making any additional moves?
Tuesday December 7, 2010 2:31 Guest
2:33


Chris Sprow:
Quiet day thus far from the Jays. On the pure rumor front, I'd say their move to acquire another solid prospect in Brett Lawrie hasn't diminshed opinion they could pounce for a name like Zack Greinke. But, most feel Greinke's market won't be really clear until the massive domino of Cliff Lee falls.

[Rapsobsessed7]

According to Ed Price of AOL Fanhouse, it "sounds like teams are upping their offers" to Royals right-hander Zack Greinke
.
This year's free agent market is extremely thin on quality starting pitching and most teams won't be able to afford to jump into the chase for a guy like Cliff Lee. Greinke presents a far cheaper option, though it's going to take a serious package of prospects to lure him away from the Royals' grasp. So far the Blue Jays have been the most aggressive potential suitor. Greinke, 27, boasts a fantastic 3.82 career ERA and 1.26 WHIP

According to Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com, the Nationals have "inquired" about Zack Greinke.
This doesn't tell us a whole lot. In fact, Knobler acknowledges that it doesn't seem likely that the two sides will agree on a deal. Still, the Nationals continue to get themselves noticed this week, for better or worse. According to Knobler, the Rangers and Blue Jays remain the most active teams in the mix for the ace right-hander.

[northernpuppy]

If one thing is clear about Alex by now, it is that if a deal has been rumored about in the media, it ain't happening.

All of his trades have been out of the blue.

+1

Perhaps the best attribute of AA is that he and his staff are hush-hush with the media. They shut their collective mouths and deal behind close doors and do not use the media option to induce excitement. Except for Halladay, the additions of Fred Lewis and Rajai Davis, the dealing of Brett Wallace among others were not things that were pointed out by major media outlets. They happened abruptly and then the Baseball specialists tried to make sense of it all.

Do I expect AA to land Grienke? No. Because that's exactly what AA doesn't want to do to the fans (create the appearance of a false hope). Is he going to go out and snag Zach if a deal makes sense for the organization and their goals, absolutely. But personally, I can see AA solidifying the roster with more prospects and some short-term filler (perhaps Russell Martin or Orlando Hudson) and then allow the youngsters to develop together in Las Vegas and come through all at the same time (referring to the Cuban SS, Lawrie and the notable pitching prospects).

[Randle McMurphy]

Really, I wouldn't even trade Travis Snider straight up for two years of Greinke.

i'm so-so about Snider.
he looks better than i expected in the outfield. i still don't feel comfortable with his ability to consistently hit the long ball.
you think he still has star potential?

Nothing in his 600 ABs over his age 21 and age 22 seasons has changed my mind on that.

[SharoneWright]

I'm all in on Snider.

[victor page]

What I don't understand is why Snider is so often late on fastballs in obvious fastball counts. How can that improve with age? I suppose a 22 year old can get stronger but the dude is pretty jacked already.

I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but maybe he's just reached a level of ball that he can't mash anymore? Maybe he's just got AAAA bat speed.

[Schad]

What I don't understand is why Snider is so often late on fastballs in obvious fastball counts. How can that improve with age? I suppose a 22 year old can get stronger but the dude is pretty jacked already.

I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but maybe he's just reached a level of ball that he can't mash anymore? Maybe he's just got AAAA bat speed.

It's not a lack of bat speed, it was pitch recognition and anticipation. Pitchers clued in that Snider could hit fastballs, and at the start of last year they began junkballing him to a ridiculous extent; the book on him was clearly to throw a pitches low and off the plate (either down or away), and then change his eye level and screw with his timing by backing them up with high fastballs. When pitchers got behind in the count, they'd stay out of the zone anyway, and let him take a walk or make a bad out. As a result, his average and slugging took a beating, his walk rate soared, and he had one of the lowest pitches in-zone percentages in baseball. Basically, he started looking breaking ball on every pitch, and when fastballs came he was late recognizing them and could only offer up a tentative wave. That continued to some extent for the remainder of the season, but his numbers jumped significantly once it became clear that our lineup was too dangerous to make surrendering free passes a wise decision, and once he started swinging at first pitches again.

Pitch recognition tends to be the toughest part of the game for young players, because it tends to revolve less around recognizing the ball in flight than it does your pre-pitch preparation...having a rough idea of what the pitcher likes to do in certain situations, keying in on a certain selection, and having enough strike zone control to know whether it's a ball you can crush, a ball you can leave alone, or a ball at which you have to throw an emergency hack.

[Dr Positivity]

I would've been on board with Marcum, Greinke, and Ramirez all at once

Going for Greinke after dealing Marcum doesn't make much sense in the AL East. Either make your stand now or go all in a few years from now. We don't have a chance otherwise.

[ItsDanger]

I dont think Greinke would want to come here and if he did, he would leave after 2 yrs. No thanks. I disagree with the Drabek comments. He doesnt have the look? Please.

[luvtheteam]

Pitch recognition tends to be the toughest part of the game for young players, because it tends to revolve less around recognizing the ball in flight than it does your pre-pitch preparation...having a rough idea of what the pitcher likes to do in certain situations, keying in on a certain selection, and having enough strike zone control to know whether it's a ball you can crush, a ball you can leave alone, or a ball at which you have to throw an emergency hack.

Yep...it's all about adjustements. There seems to be a big gap between the minor leagues and the majors. Snider has been moved along at quite a young age as well, so at times his youth and inexperience will show.

I remember Delgado made the big club out of spring training one year and he had an awesome April. I think he hit about 8 homeruns. Then the pitchers started to adjust and he was swinging like a madman at everything offspeed. Eventually they sent him back down to AAA for a few months.

We haven't seen the best of Snider yet.

[LBJSeizedMyID]

On average the fourth year is when players truly breakout. He did strikeout less last year, although still bad, but we have to remember last year was when he started to see consistent at bats until the injury.

[SargentBargs101]

The Royals are crazy for asking for snider and drabek

[satyr9]

The Royals are crazy for asking for snider and drabek

I don't know. I think the Royals are watching Lee's price escalate and they're banking that eventually someone stops the FA game of chicken. The type of prospects a team like the Angels or Rangers value at the difference in salaries between Lee and Greinke over the next 7 years could be considerable.

Not to mention the pure desperation moves that happen regularly enough that I think you'd have to offer them the moon before Lee goes to get a deal done now. Afterwards, unless everyone keeps a clear head, it'll be the same as the losers fall over themselves to add a top SP.

There are too many things I'm unable to judge fairly to say what AA should give up. Drabek's realistic ceiling, Greinke's true feelings towards the EC in general and Toronto specifically, and the smaller side pieces that go for deals like this, are all too hard to judge to reasonably speculate on a whether he's worth it or not.

I think at the end, the price gets too much (I've said this about every large name connected to the Jays this offseason), 'cause there are always stupider and more rushed GMs looking to break their system for immediate success, but I think my acceptable price is higher than many others who post on this board.

[Skin Blues]

Two seasons of a pitcher of Greinke's calibre in the heart of his prime years is easily worth $40M+. There's a reason they're asking a lot for him, as he's only signed for $27M ($13M in value). One season of Roy Halladay at $16M ($4M in value) cost the Phillies Drabek, d'Arnaud, and Michael Taylor. Snider + Drabek is not asking too much, although it's probably not something the Jays are interested in since they don't want to mortgage the future. Somebody probably will, though, hence the asking price.